Prayut warns some areas must be sacrificed to floods

[vlietje]

5 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

Not even the Dutch can keep water from wanting to flow downhill.

 

Once in awhile, some Thai engineer (is that an oxymoron?) suggests building a giant berm (6 meters high has been suggested) around Bkk.  However, when you wall things out, you also wall things in.  ....and there's a large river and tributaries. So they've also got to build walls all along the rivers, which they're already doing - except now the river walls are 2 meters high.  In future they'll have to be 4 meters, or......?

 

Here's an idea, that's only partly crazy:   excavate the terrain in rows, like a zebra's stripes.  There will be low areas and relatively high areas.  Build on the high areas, and let the low areas flood.  I suggest high areas be about 5 meters, with bridges between them, .....lots of bridges.  ...and lots of work for earth moving machinery.

 

 

Sorry but not the newest idea, the Dutch (indeed) call them terps:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terp

[boomerangutang]

4 hours ago, attrayant said:

Right.  It's almost like some sort of water management plan is needed.

There's not much 'water management' which can be done.  Water always seeks to flow downhill, no matter what.  The middle half of Thailand is flat as a frying pan.  How're you gonna 'manage' water?  ....tell it what to do?  Self-appointed military brass can tell the Thai people what to do, and usually get compliance, but a group of a million Thai generals cannot successfully order water around, no matter how many talismans or chanting men in orange robes assist them.

[boomerangutang]

15 minutes ago, vlietje said:

Sorry but not the newest idea, the Dutch (indeed) call them terps:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terp

Thanks for that - I learned a new word.  Bangladeshis could benefit from that, though am not sure they have enough heavy equipment to do the work - plus it's a yukky job to push mud around.

Currently, some villages in the Bangladesh delta (most of the country is a sea-level delta), build bamboo structures about 4 to 5 meters high that look to us westerners like 'jungle gyms' with approx 50 cm square spaces.  When floods come, the stronger members of the village (who aren't asleep) can climb up there and wait it out.  Weaker folks, toddlers and elderly probably have a tougher time with it.

 

I'm not suggesting Bkk build 40,000 bamboo jungle gyms, but I like the mental picture of that.

[vlietje]

1 minute ago, boomerangutang said:

Thanks for that - I learned a new word.  Bangladeshis could benefit from that, though am not sure they have enough heavy equipment to do the work - plus it's a yukky job to push mud around.

Currently, some villages in the Bangladesh delta (most of the country is a sea-level delta), build bamboo structures about 4 to 5 meters high that look to us westerners like 'jungle gyms' with approx 50 cm square spaces.  When floods come, the stronger members of the village (who aren't asleep) can climb up there and wait it out.  Weaker folks, toddlers and elderly probably have a tougher time with it.

 

I'm not suggesting Bkk build 40,000 bamboo jungle gyms, but I like the mental picture of that.

yeah the Dutch had many heavy equipment 2000 years ago to get all that done, fair point....

[lvr181]

4 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

There's not much 'water management' which can be done.  Water always seeks to flow downhill, no matter what.  The middle half of Thailand is flat as a frying pan.  How're you gonna 'manage' water?  ....tell it what to do?  Self-appointed military brass can tell the Thai people what to do, and usually get compliance, but a group of a million Thai generals cannot successfully order water around, no matter how many talismans or chanting men in orange robes assist them.

Agreed, you cannot tell it what to do BUT you can mitigate the effects. Something that seems to be beyond the thinking of many Thai Governments (including todays lot). 

 

I am not Dutch but they seem to have handled the North Sea pretty well in their country. There has to be a gold mine of sensible water management skill available from first world countries.

[boomerangutang]

Back during the 2011 flood, I was in Chiang Rai, but had a worker who had to quit to go down to a flooded region to help his mother.  I did some experiments with plastic bottles.  I made a prototype mattress from recycled plastic, which floats.   Years earlier, I made a small raft from the same type of bottles (liter are best, and they don't decompose, ever, not even in 50 million years).   I rode the raft (with a kayak paddle), solo, 55 km down the medium-sized Mae Kok River.  

[lvr181]

2 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

Back during the 2011 flood, I was in Chiang Rai, but had a worker who had to quit to go down to a flooded region to help his mother.  I did some experiments with plastic bottles.  I made a prototype mattress from recycled plastic, which floats.   Years earlier, I made a small raft from the same type of bottles (liter are best, and they don't decompose, ever, not even in 50 million years).   I rode the raft (with a kayak paddle), solo, 55 km down the medium-sized Mae Kok River.  

Begs the question, do you still have the 'mattress' and 'raft'? 

[watcharacters]

 

 

"We Had to Destroy the Village to Save It"

[boomerangutang]

4 minutes ago, lvr181 said:

Agreed, you cannot tell it what to do BUT you can mitigate the effects. Something that seems to be beyond the thinking of many Thai Governments (including todays lot). 

 

I am not Dutch but they seem to have handled the North Sea pretty well in their country. There has to be a gold mine of sensible water management skill available from first world countries.

Yea, the Dutch have done quite well, but they've had some breaches along the way.  Holland is smaller than the region Thais would have to deal with.  Plus, Dutch per capita are richer than Thais.  It takes a lot of investment to terra-form.  To me, it would be smarter to head to higher ground.

 

When I hear about the sky-high prices of Bkk real estate, I have to grin.  It's almost as if the lowest value (in practical terms) properties demand the highest prices.  It's kinda like buying bottled water in Thailand.     A 40 lb bottle of water costs 12 baht, whereas a 1/2 lb bottle of water from the same company costs 15 baht.   

[Ossy]

12 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

Back during the 2011 flood, I was in Chiang Rai, but had a worker who had to quit to go down to a flooded region to help his mother.  I did some experiments with plastic bottles.  I made a prototype mattress from recycled plastic, which floats.   Years earlier, I made a small raft from the same type of bottles (liter are best, and they don't decompose, ever, not even in 50 million years).   I rode the raft (with a kayak paddle), solo, 55 km down the medium-sized Mae Kok River.  

Brave feller . . . or maybe an absolute nutter. Great mental picture though . . . and 55km is a pretty long way. Did you have beer and pee-pee stops?

[vlietje]

3 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

Yea, the Dutch have done quite well, but they've had some breaches along the way.  Holland is smaller than the region Thais would have to deal with.  Plus, Dutch per capita are richer than Thais.  It takes a lot of investment to terra-form.  To me, it would be smarter to head to higher ground.

 

When I hear about the sky-high prices of Bkk real estate, I have to grin.  It's almost as if the lowest value (in practical terms) properties demand the highest prices.  It's kinda like buying bottled water in Thailand.     A 40 lb bottle of water costs 12 baht, whereas a 1/2 lb bottle of water from the same company costs 15 baht.   

mate not saying they did it all in one go all good, but 2000 years ago they started, yes by hand, and since 400 years they pump the water out (24/7 365 days a year), first using windmills, you might have seen some pictures of them, later using steam machines, that might have helped a bit to get "rich"? (among some other creative things maybe like running plants (with  slavery) and some far east trading, but you can't claim they where rich and then after they started doing taking care of things... ), not saying easy but if done proper it will pay of.

[lvr181]

7 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

Yea, the Dutch have done quite well, but they've had some breaches along the way.  Holland is smaller than the region Thais would have to deal with.  Plus, Dutch per capita are richer than Thais.  It takes a lot of investment to terra-form.  To me, it would be smarter to head to higher ground.

 

When I hear about the sky-high prices of Bkk real estate, I have to grin.  It's almost as if the lowest value (in practical terms) properties demand the highest prices.  It's kinda like buying bottled water in Thailand.     A 40 lb bottle of water costs 12 baht, whereas a 1/2 lb bottle of water from the same company costs 15 baht.   

"Yea, the Dutch have done quite well, but they've had some breaches along the way."

 

Agreed, but at least they did something. And they didn't spend all their money on armaments. Flood/water management and mitigation would be an investment in the Kingdom.

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

10 hours ago, Thian said:

Which part of the word "flood-retention area" these people and some TV-posters don't understand??

 

And why does the government has to pay for damage when a flood-retention area gets flooded???

 

I mean......<deleted>??

These people as you call them own land which the government flood at will and without proper notification nor proper compensation. It has been going on for generations without any government trying to solve this problem. The last elected government tried but as you know your beloved leader ended their plans. The hated PTP allocated B 35 bn for a water management system. These funds was used by your dear beloved leader as droughr relief. Those of us that know this country warned at the time of their short sighted spending. Now here we are the drought is followed by a flood. Just as a footnote does spending on  tanks, subs, fighters and speed cameras produce any economic growth no, but money spend on a water management system will save the country from future floods and ease the effect of droughts and enhance future growth. Just show how shortsighted some people are. 

[candide]

19 minutes ago, SOUTHERNSTAR said:

These people as you call them own land which the government flood at will and without proper notification nor proper compensation. It has been going on for generations without any government trying to solve this problem. The last elected government tried but as you know your beloved leader ended their plans. The hated PTP allocated B 35 bn for a water management system. These funds was used by your dear beloved leader as droughr relief. Those of us that know this country warned at the time of their short sighted spending. Now here we are the drought is followed by a flood. Just as a footnote does spending on  tanks, subs, fighters and speed cameras produce any economic growth no, but money spend on a water management system will save the country from future floods and ease the effect of droughts and enhance future growth. Just show how shortsighted some people are. 

It's time now to use the flood relief money for water management! 

Edited October 25, 2017 by candide

[lungbing]

12 hours ago, leeneeds said:

King Canute, !

 

Which sometimes spelled King <deleted>, which is even more apt.

[djayz]

I assume his house, area, land, etc. isn't going to be affected then... 

[macgver]

Worst flood management planning. 

[attrayant]

2 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

How're you gonna 'manage' water?  ....tell it what to do? 

 

At least give it somewhere to go.  Drainage ditches and ponds will create lower places for surface water to drain away.  Isn't that the point of man-made lakes?  Flatness of landforms notwithstanding, water will drain away into a depression if one is created.

 

And I know that a good deal of central Bangkok is barely more than a half meter above the water table as this elevation map makes clear, but isn't the water coming from the northern and eastern provinces?  I guess what I'm saying is that if those provinces could do a better job of retaining more water, there'd be less of it to flood the downstream areas.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2017 by attrayant
typo

[boomerangutang]

Part of the problem:    The Shinawatre family is among the top 5 in Thailand for real estate development.   Much of real estate development in Thailand relates to housing tracts, but also big box stores, roads, parking areas, regular shops, etc ad nauseum.

 

Every one of those projects required pouring concrete, and often includes laying large tracts of asphalt.  Such things put a permanent shell over the soil.  It's the opposite of forests.  With no place to seep into, water naturally seeks to drain off.

 

My suggestion:   builders and developers should be taxed (a one time 'mitigation fee') on how much soil they're covering.  I suggest 100 baht per sq. M.   .....that tax money could be used to........ (ok, most of it would go into corrupt bureaucrats' pockets), but you get the idea.

 

 

 

 

 

[boomerangutang]

8 hours ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

Interesting that you posted that pic.  For the past 10 days I've been writing a fictional account of Mayan sacrifice drama.  That pic fits exactly.  

[Ossy]

9 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

Part of the problem:    The Shinawatre family is among the top 5 in Thailand for real estate development.   Much of real estate development in Thailand relates to housing tracts, but also big box stores, roads, parking areas, regular shops, etc ad nauseum.

 

Every one of those projects required pouring concrete, and often includes laying large tracts of asphalt.  Such things put a permanent shell over the soil.  It's the opposite of forests.  With no place to seep into, water naturally seeks to drain off.

 

My suggestion:   builders and developers should be taxed (a one time 'mitigation fee') on how much soil they're covering.  I suggest 100 baht per sq. M.   .....that tax money could be used to........ (ok, most of it would go into corrupt bureaucrats' pockets), but you get the idea.

 

 

 

 

 

An interesting angle.      Speaking as a Lego Lad, though, why not have everything perforated to let the water through? . . . concrete, asphalt, the lot. That's in addition to the 'normal' asphalt perforating, of course.

[Ossy]

9 hours ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

With a leader like him, I'd consider stopping here . . . Ungowa - Ungowa!

[biggles45]

FAKE NEWS, I remember his Generalness saying months ago that talk about massive flooding was not true. !!

[owl sees all]

I have a solution; and it's not abandoning BKK to nature.

Build a causeway from north of Pattaya to somewhere north of Cha-am. Put in the necessary features and drain the enclosed land; making sure the sub's are not stranded of course. 

 

Would give a lot of work to Thais and Burmese.

 

This would save BKK.

[owl sees all]

3 hours ago, Ossy said:

Speaking as a Lego Lad, though, why not have everything perforated to let the water through? . . . concrete, asphalt, the lot. That's in addition to the 'normal' asphalt perforating, of course.

Great post. Got me thinking. Why not drill holes 50 metres deep (lined with PVC) all over BKK to let the water seep into the soil. A quick calculation; yes, about 65,000 holes should do it.

[Ossy]

14 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

I have a solution; and it's not abandoning BKK to nature.

Build a causeway from north of Pattaya to somewhere north of Cha-am. Put in the necessary features and drain the enclosed land; making sure the sub's are not stranded of course. 

 

Would give a lot of work to Thais and Burmese.

 

This would save BKK.

They're trying to let the sodding water out, not keep it in. Oh, I get it . . . there goes silly old naïve Ossy, again, believing the best TV joke this month. Well, I take it you're joking, otherwise I'll be asking you to explain rather more than 'Put in the necessary features - what, like fountains and marinas? - and drain the enclosed land' That would give work to the planet's unemp. No... it's a joke . . . I think! Nice one, Owl.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Ossy
omission

[Ossy]

12 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

Great post. Got me thinking. Why not drill holes 50 metres deep (lined with PVC) all over BKK to let the water seep into the soil. A quick calculation; yes, about 65,000 holes should do it.

Confusus he say 'many linings = little seepage' . . . go, think on these things. And 65,000 doesn't sound many.

[owl sees all]

4 minutes ago, Ossy said:

They're trying to let the sodding water out, not keep it in. Oh, I get it . . . there goes silly old naïve Ossy, again, believing the best TV joke this month. Well, I take it you're joking, otherwise I'll be asking you to explain rather more than 'Put in the necessary features - what, like fountains and marinas? - and drain the enclosed land' That would give work to the planet's unemp. No... it's a joke . . . I think! Nice one, Owl.

No Joke Ossy.

 

Let me explain. Once the causeway is built DRAIN the enclosed area.

 

The features would include pumping stations and sanctuaries for crabs and other sea creatures.

[owl sees all]

5 minutes ago, Ossy said:

Confusus he say 'many linings = little seepage' . . . go, think on these things. And 65,000 doesn't sound many.

Well more holes then; say 650,000. 150mm in dia'. Compsensate for all the comcrete. BUT my first choice is the 100km causeway.

Edited October 26, 2017 by owl sees all

[Ossy]

5 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

No Joke Ossy.

 

Let me explain. Once the causeway is built DRAIN the enclosed area.

 

The features would include pumping stations and sanctuaries for crabs and other sea creatures.

Oh, Owl . . . you're somethin' else!    Crabs and other sea creatures. I can't eat my lunch for laughing. I'll get my lad building the pumping stations now. He runs one of UK's biggest tank & pump manufs and would be cock-a-hoop if this job came off.