A century on, UK's Jewish homeland declaration stirs celebration and mourning in Middle East

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, dexterm said:

So two wrongs don't make a right. Just because one religious group has been persecuted does not give them the right to persecute another group.

 

I have said in previous posts that I hope provisions in an eventual peace agreement can address genuine Jewish refugee claims too.

 

If two wrongs do not make a right, that should stand for your wishes for Israel's destruction. And do spare the usual nonsense about non-existent, unrealistic imaginary political constructs. If two wrongs do not make a right, then the so-called Palestinian Right of Return is yet another example. Same goes for applying any solution not agreed upon by Israelis....and so on and so forth.

[impulse]

48 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Its the Jewish homeland .

Jews have been living there constantly for over 2000 years

The Temple of David in Jerusalem , is over 2000 years old .

Anyway , I do think that 3000 years of history is a subject that is too big to discuss on forums

You would need to do a four year university course to fully understand the situation

 

If you conveniently leave out the 2000 years when they weren't.  Unless you count a tiny minority. 

 

[sanemax]

15 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

If you conveniently leave out the 2000 years when they weren't.  Unless you count a tiny minority. 

 

Well yes, if you disregard the Jews who were living there, then, no Jews were living there at all!!!!!

[phantomfiddler]

7 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

Time for the Muslims to put their hate aside and accept Israel

I predict a long wait

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, sanemax said:

There is also US$ 300 Billion worth of property in the Middle East, owned by Jews who cannot access the homes and still have the keys , 

And this is the responsibility of the Palestinians how?

Nice diversion.

Edited November 2, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[Orton Rd]

5 hours ago, dexterm said:

 

 

 

Palestinians quite rightly rejected the Balfour Declaration in 1917 and Partition in 1947 for the same reasons..why should they agree to a foreign power giving away a majority of their land to a minority of foreign colonists.

There has never been a Palestine or Palestinians, they made it all up

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, Orton Rd said:

There has never been a Palestine or Palestinians, they made it all up

 

Never is a big word. It may be claimed that Palestinian identity, or national identity is a relatively new construct, though. As for "made up", in a sense, all such labels are.

[sanemax]

21 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

And this is the responsibility of the Palestinians how?

Nice diversion.

I didnt say that it was .

Just pointing out that some Jews who gained homes in Israel, may have also lost homes in the Middle East

[ilostmypassword]

3 minutes ago, sanemax said:

I didnt say that it was .

Just pointing out that some Jews who gained homes in Israel, may have also lost homes in the Middle East

Given that you were replying to this:

"People like Ivanka Trump do not have a god given right to instant Israeli citizenship and a land package on stolen Palestinian land, while Palestinian refugees are forbidden from returning to their confiscated homes for which many still have the keys."

it is not what you were pointing out. Rather the gist is clearly "tit for tat."

[Jingthing]

Overall, Balfour was more of a good thing than a bad thing.
If nothing else, in total numbers of lives saved. 

I'm acknowledging there have been negative consequences as well.

I think that's worth at least a modest celebration. 

 

 

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Given that you were replying to this:

"People like Ivanka Trump do not have a god given right to instant Israeli citizenship and a land package on stolen Palestinian land, while Palestinian refugees are forbidden from returning to their confiscated homes for which many still have the keys."

it is not what you were pointing out. Rather the gist is clearly "tit for tat."

Just pointing out that whilst some Palestinians may have lost their homes , the same fate happened to the Israeli Jews also .

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, sanemax said:

Just pointing out that whilst some Palestinians may have lost their homes , the same fate happened to the Israeli Jews also .

And that is relevant why?

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

It's a phony argument because you do not agree with it. Nice touch there with the "diluted" bit. May want to watch it before true colors come out and all that. Fact is countries set their immigration rules however they see fit, and not according to your pseudo-liberal "ideals". The Palestinian policies (or rather, declared future policies) are not all that different. And, of course, same goes for passing a refugee status from one generation to the other - which is not the norm.

 

What you "have no objection to" carries less weight than hot air, and is about as relevant to conditions and realities pertaining to the situation. Other than spewing hate or painting rosy pictures, you have nothing to contribute on this.

 

 

>>Nice touch there with the "diluted" bit. May want to watch it before true colors come out and all that.
...not sure what you mean, unless it is a veiled threat to play the usual any criticism of Zionist Israel must be anti semitic card. When you can't address the injustice of the Balfour Declaration or the oppression of Palestinians since then, as usual you resort to besmirching.

 

>>Fact is countries set their immigration rules however they see fit, and not according to your pseudo-liberal "ideals".
..indeed they do. I can think of many countries, one in recent history that also practised apartheid. Doesn't make their rules right though.

 

>>If two wrongs do not make a right, that should stand for your wishes for Israel's destruction. 
.. blatant lie. I have never called for the destruction of Israel. I have frequently called for the end of the racist ideology Zionism. I have no doubts whatsoever that Israel will one day become a truly democratic secular country. 

 

All it will take is outside social media, economic, and political pressure, and leaders of the caliber of perhaps Bernie Sanders, and UK's Corbyn, the latter who is not attending May and Netanyahu's current celebratory lovefest, perhaps because more honestly he can see the misery and injustice that the Balfour Declaration has caused.

More importantly world Jewry has voted with its feet and not moved to Israel, because they realize Zionist Israel is more a liability and they do not need an apartheid state in which to conduct their religion, traditions and daily lives. In fact many Jewish groups openly condemn the racist Zionist state.

 

Why am I ultimately certain that Zionism will end: because despite all the waves of Jewish migrations, all the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and apartheid phony demographic manipulations, Palestinians still today form the majority in their homeland historic Palestine just as they did at the time of Balfour. And no colonial enterprise has ever succeeded in suppressing the desire for freedom of an occupied majority for ever.

Israel will ultimately meld into the Middle East as a secular truly democratic country...perhaps as a beacon on enlightenment to neighboring countries. Let's hope it happens peacefully.

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Given that you were replying to this:

"People like Ivanka Trump do not have a god given right to instant Israeli citizenship and a land package on stolen Palestinian land, while Palestinian refugees are forbidden from returning to their confiscated homes for which many still have the keys."

it is not what you were pointing out. Rather the gist is clearly "tit for tat."

I'm no fan of any trump, Ivanka or otherwise, but the right of return is not about a God given right. It's about the immigration law of the sovereign nation state of Israel. Israel demonizers often push the big lie that Israel is a hard core theocracy. It is not. It's a democracy with theocratic aspects which you can say about many many other nations as well. Any nation state has a right to make their own immigration laws. Palestine which may actually exist someday (who knows?) is likely to exclude Jews from citizenship. That would be disgusting but they would have that right. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Jingthing

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, Jingthing said:

I'm no fan of any trump, Ivanka or otherwise, but the right of return is not about a God given right. It's about the immigration law of the sovereign nation state of Israel. Any nation state has a right to make their own immigration laws. Palestine which may actually exist someday (who knows?) is likely to exclude Jews from citizenship. That would be disgusting but they would have that right. 

Your confusing a religious designation, Jews, with a geographical designation, Palestinians. And yes it would be disgusting to exclude Jews or their descendants who happened to be living in what someday may be Palestine. Therefore it is disgusting....

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

And that is relevant why?

Its an interesting piece of information which gives people a greater understanding of the situation

Jewish Arabs lost their homes in their home country and then moved to Israel

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Your confusing a religious designation, Jews, with a geographical designation, Palestinians. And yes it would be disgusting to exclude Jews or their descendants who happened to be living in what someday may be Palestine. Therefore it is disgusting....

I'm not confusing anything.

Jewish is a religion and Jews are also people (ETHNICALLY). 

That annoys some people, but it's the truth.

A person doesn't need to follow the Jewish religion to be a Jew.

That's basic. 

[ilostmypassword]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Its an interesting piece of information which gives people a greater understanding of the situation

Jewish Arabs lost their homes in their home country and then moved to Israel

Nice try. I could go on with making you oscillate, but I'll leave it alone now.

[sanemax]

4 hours ago, dexterm said:

 

Nothing faux about my indignation at UK's betrayal and the suffering it has caused. The reality is that The Balfour Declaration was unjust in 1917 and the apartheid conditions imposed by Israel on Palestines today are still unjust.

Palestinians have equal rights in Israel , there is no "apartheid" . Equal rights, living side by side in Israel

[dexterm]

54 minutes ago, Orton Rd said:

There has never been a Palestine or Palestinians, they made it all up

Well, that's all very odd because 4 of Israel's Prime Ministers (Allon,Rabin,Sharon,Olmert) and the current President (Rivlin) all have Palestine written on their birth certificates.
 
The 6 others were born in Russia, Poland, or Ukraine.
 
And only one, Netanyahu, was born in Israel (after of course Zionists renamed Palestine).

 

And even odder still that the OP Balfour Declaration should mention  "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.."...err Palestine..you know that land you claim fictitious.

 

Let's not do the Zionist mythology troll; "There are no Palestinians"..perhaps the 91% majority  were the invisible people at the time of Balfour. We've been down that trail many times before on this forum.
 

Edited November 2, 2017 by dexterm

[ilostmypassword]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I'm not confusing anything.

Jewish is a religion and Jews are also people (ETHNICALLY). 

That annoys some people, but it's the truth.

A person doesn't need to follow the Jewish religion to be a Jew.

That's basic. 

First off, I don't see how say, Persian Jews and Russian jews constitute one ethnicity. Apart from religion practices, what elements of their way of life do they have especially in common? It's clear that the Jewish people are divided into several ethnicities.

And the point of my statement is that if its disgusting that a Jewish person who was a resident of Palestine would be denied the right to return, then why isn't it disgusting for a Palestinian person of whatever religious persuasion to be denied his or her right to return.

In fact, many Palestinians are even now being denied the right to return to the west bank, much less Israel proper.

Edited November 2, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[Morch]

1 minute ago, dexterm said:

>>Nice touch there with the "diluted" bit. May want to watch it before true colors come out and all that.
...not sure what you mean, unless it is a veiled threat to play the usual any criticism of Zionist Israel must be anti semitic card. When you can't address the injustice of the Balfour Declaration or the oppression of Palestinians since then, as usual you resort to besmirching.

 

>>Fact is countries set their immigration rules however they see fit, and not according to your pseudo-liberal "ideals".
..indeed they do. I can think of many countries, one in recent history that also practised apartheid. Doesn't make their rules right though.

 

>>If two wrongs do not make a right, that should stand for your wishes for Israel's destruction. 
.. blatant lie. I have never called for the destruction of Israel. I have frequently called for the end of the racist ideology Zionism. I have no doubts whatsoever that Israel will one day become a truly democratic secular country. 

 

All it will take is outside social media, economic, and political pressure, and leaders of the caliber of perhaps Bernie Sanders, and UK's Corbyn, the latter who is not attending May and Netanyahu's current celebratory lovefest, perhaps because more honestly he can see the misery and injustice that the Balfour Declaration has caused.

More importantly world Jewry has voted with its feet and not moved to Israel, because they realize Zionist Israel is more a liability and they do not need an apartheid state in which to conduct their religion, traditions and daily lives. In fact many Jewish groups openly condemn the racist Zionist state.

 

Why am I ultimately certain that Zionism will end: because despite all the waves of Jewish migrations, all the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and apartheid phony demographic manipulations, Palestinians still today form the majority in their homeland historic Palestine just as they did at the time of Balfour. And no colonial enterprise has ever succeeded in suppressing the desire for freedom of an occupied majority for ever.

Israel will ultimately meld into the Middle East as a secular truly democratic country...perhaps as a beacon on enlightenment to neighboring countries. Let's hope it happens peacefully.

 

I'm pretty sure you know exactly what I meant, don't be coy. You've slipped in the past, and you'll do so again. All this pseudo-liberal facade isn't very convincing, really. And no, not the BS claim you raised - there wasn't anything said about not criticizing Israel, something which I occasionally engage in on these topics. And out comes the good old "besmirching" as if this was some ace card. It isn't. Not agreeing with your post, style and views is allowed. Pointing out the flaws, pitfalls and whatnot - allowed as well. And there is no obligation addressing anything on your terms or relying on the way you choose to describe things.

 

There are not countries which do not place limitations, caveats and preferences on immigration. That you choose to go for hyperbole is again, your choice - not a necessarily valid point.

 

The only lie is that you do not wish to see Israel destroyed. Doesn't matter how you present this or attempt to cover it. What you wish for is a country that will replace Israel and will not be Israel. Pretty much the same thing. You have no objections to anything aired by the Palestinians which either aims emulates Israeli practices and policy, or anything that points at their inability to either have a democratic regime or be part of one. And as usual, you somehow imply that Israel should be held to a high moral standard, without any consideration of realities involved. Nothing new here.

 

The rest is just the routine use of these topics as a platform for your extreme views and hateful opinions. I don't know that Corbyn is of any significant caliber, but not surprised you see him as such. Birds of a feather and all that. As for your musings on the motivations of World Jewry - just more of the same baseless co-opting often appearing in your posts. That some may subscribe to your creed, yes - that it is a major motivator or even a majority view, doubtful (to put it mildly). But do talk about lies and whine about inaccuracies.

 

What I'm sure is that your grasp of ME affairs is non-existent. Not a whole lot by way of peaceful, functioning and multicultural countries out there. That you wish both Israelis and Palestinians to partake in a dreamed up social experiment, exhibits once more that your focus isn't on reality.

 

[Morch]

14 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Well, that's all very odd because 4 of Israel's Prime Ministers (Allon,Rabin,Sharon,Olmert) and the current President (Rivlin) all have Palestine written on their birth certificates.
 
The 6 others were born in Russia, Poland, or Ukraine.
 
And only one, Netanyahu, was born in Israel (after of course Zionists renamed Palestine).

 

And even odder still that the OP Balfour Declaration should mention  "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.."...err Palestine..you know that land you claim fictitious.

 

Let's not do the Zionist mythology troll; "There are no Palestinians"..perhaps the 91% majority  were the invisible people at the time of Balfour. We've been down that trail many times before on this forum.
 

 

Same old BS.

 

Palestine, as a name defining a geographical or administrative area is not quite the same as there being a country or a state of Palestine. And it became tied with what's to become Palestinian national identity only at a latter stage.

 

But do whine about obfuscation. Do.

 

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

First off, I don't see how say, Persian Jews and Russian jews constitute one ethnicity. Apart from religion practices, what elements of their way of life do they have especially in common? It's clear that the Jewish people are divided into several ethnicities.

And the point of my statement is that if its disgusting that a Jewish person who was a resident of Palestine would be denied the right to return, then why isn't it disgusting for a Palestinian person of whatever religious persuasion to be denied his or her right to return.

In fact, many Palestinians are even now being denied the right to return to the west bank, much less Israel proper.

 

I don't know that it's "disgusting", that's a word you two chose to bring up. It is what it is, and as said, applied in various ways in different countries.

 

Whether or not you wish to accept it or not, Jews do see themselves as belonging to a larger group, whether or not various members practice the faith, or have various additional cultural traditions. There's language, traditions, history - much of it shared, or seen as shared. And this isn't a new thing, but been going on for centuries if not more. 

 

If this was some Utopian reality, than such limitations would not be in place. As it is, they are. Banging on about it being unjust, unfair and the lot of other complaints is all very well - but again, there is no workable alternative under existing conditions.

 

That the Palestinians' intentions are to emulate these practices doesn't seem to pose much issue for some posters. 

[dexterm]

36 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Palestinians have equal rights in Israel , there is no "apartheid" . Equal rights, living side by side in Israel

For apartheid practised against Palestinian Israeli citizens I suggest you visit https://www.adalah.org/en to note the many Israeli laws that discriminate against its own Palestinian citizens.

 

Major ones being: the current attempts to change Judaisize Israel's basic law (make it a Jewsih state) and Palestinian Israelis forbidden to marry anyone they love from a long list of Muslim countries and the Occupied Territories despite extreme vetting. Security supposedly is the pretext, but of course its dog whistle racism in order to engineer phony apartheid Jewish majority demographics.

 

For apartheid practised in the West Bank and Gaza, it's far less subtle. Israel for 50 years of occupation controls every aspect of Palestinian lives..where they live, work, travel and give birth, but does not grant them equal citizenship rights as the illegal Israeli occupying settlers living on the hills above.

 

For apartheid outside Palestine, ask why 6 million Palestinian refugees in neighboring countries and the Palestinian diaspora are not allowed to live even in the West Bank and Gaza.

 

The answer to all of course is:  it would upset the demographics of a fake Jewish majority. Just as in 1917 you cant have a Jewish State if Jews are the minority..simple math. The only way to achieve the phony demographics of Jewish majority is by ethnic cleansing and apartheid laws forbidding equal voting and immigration rights.

[owl sees all]

15 minutes ago, Morch said:

Palestine, as a name defining a geographical or administrative area is not quite the same as there being a country or a state of Palestine. And it became tied with what's to become Palestinian national identity only at a latter stage.

In 1948 the Olympic games were held in London. Palestine was defined as a participating country.

[ilostmypassword]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I don't know that it's "disgusting", that's a word you two chose to bring up. It is what it is, and as said, applied in various ways in different countries.

 

Whether or not you wish to accept it or not, Jews do see themselves as belonging to a larger group, whether or not various members practice the faith, or have various additional cultural traditions. There's language, traditions, history - much of it shared, or seen as shared. And this isn't a new thing, but been going on for centuries if not more. 

 

If this was some Utopian reality, than such limitations would not be in place. As it is, they are. Banging on about it being unjust, unfair and the lot of other complaints is all very well - but again, there is no workable alternative under existing conditions.

 

That the Palestinians' intentions are to emulate these practices doesn't seem to pose much issue for some posters. 

One of us brought the word up. And one of us repeated it to make a point.

The ethnic question is really not resolvable. When I meet Iranian Jews, they seem to have much more in common with Iranians than Eastern European descended Jews. I think that if Jews do constitute an ethnic group, it's a kind of forced ethnicity where the host countries don't allow them the same freedoms that are granted most other citizens. So it's more a matter of external pressure that creates cohesion rather than a cohesive force that keeps them from dissipating. In places like Bulgaria, where the Turks, evil Muslims that they were, gave Jews freedom to own land and farm, lots of Jews eventually lost their customs and just disappeared into the general population.  It is unsettling to think that the Jews, few in number,  may have survived as a distinct group or groups precisely because of the repression that they experienced.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, dexterm said:

For apartheid practised against Palestinian Israeli citizens I suggest you visit https://www.adalah.org/en to note the many Israeli laws that discriminate against its own Palestinian citizens.

 

Major ones being: the current attempts to change Judaisize Israel's basic law (make it a Jewsih state) and Palestinian Israelis forbidden to marry anyone they love from a long list of Muslim countries and the Occupied Territories despite extreme vetting. Security supposedly is the pretext, but of course its dog whistle racism in order to engineer phony apartheid Jewish majority demographics.

 

For apartheid practised in the West Bank and Gaza, it's far less subtle. Israel for 50 years of occupation controls every aspect of Palestinian lives..where they live, work, travel and give birth, but does not grant them equal citizenship rights as the illegal Israeli occupying settlers living on the hills above.

 

For apartheid outside Palestine, ask why 6 million Palestinian refugees in neighboring countries and the Palestinian diaspora are not allowed to live even in the West Bank and Gaza.

 

The answer to all of course is:  it would upset the demographics of a fake Jewish majority. Just as in 1917 you cant have a Jewish State if Jews are the minority..simple math. The only way to achieve the phony demographics of Jewish majority is by ethnic cleansing and apartheid laws forbidding equal voting and immigration rights.

 

And I suggest that you stop with your BS.

 

Israel may not be the paragon of equality, treatment of minorities, tolerance and civil rights. But it isn't what you try to advertise. There are Israeli Arab politicians, ministers, judges, army and police officers. Arab citizens may vote, and on the whole, do not face much of the danger and hardships minorities tend to encounter in the ME. It's not perfect, but it isn't what you claim.

 

You can shove apartheid on any other sentence, and it still wouldn't be quite that. 

 

That the current Israeli government is a very right-wing oriented one, and that extreme elements within are using political conditions to push forward dangerous policies, is one thing. That many of these efforts do not actually become a reality is another.

 

That you declare security considerations to be but a pretext, is again, nothing more than your insistence on ignoring anything that does not fit your pet agenda. And the assertion that Israel is responsible for host Arab countries treatment of Palestinians is simply absurd.

 

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

In 1948 the Olympic games were held in London. Palestine was defined as a participating country.

[dexterm]

37 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I don't know that it's "disgusting", that's a word you two chose to bring up. It is what it is, and as said, applied in various ways in different countries.

 

Whether or not you wish to accept it or not, Jews do see themselves as belonging to a larger group, whether or not various members practice the faith, or have various additional cultural traditions. There's language, traditions, history - much of it shared, or seen as shared. And this isn't a new thing, but been going on for centuries if not more. 

 

If this was some Utopian reality, than such limitations would not be in place. As it is, they are. Banging on about it being unjust, unfair and the lot of other complaints is all very well - but again, there is no workable alternative under existing conditions.

 

That the Palestinians' intentions are to emulate these practices doesn't seem to pose much issue for some posters. 

Illegal Jewish settlers chose to build colonies in the West Bank against all international law and their government encouraged them . I dont see why in a two state solution fanatical Jewish colonists should be rewarded for their crimes. The Palestinians have been there all along. It's the European colonists encouraged by Balfour who are the foreign invaders. I think you have said in previous posts that fanatical Jewish settlers would be more trouble to the IDf than they're worth in a two state Palestine/Israel, and that they probably wouldn't want to live there anyway.

 

I agree with you to some extent. IMO many of these issues..sharing land, resources, Jerusalem.. tend towards the intractable. That's why I think a one state secular democracy solution is inevitable, where everything belongs to all citizens and not one particular race or religion.

Edited November 2, 2017 by dexterm