Israel signals free hand in Syria as U.S., Russia expand truce

[dexterm]

3 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Tell that to Russia!  People in Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia would 100% agree with you.  China seems to need a lesson in this also.

Completely agree. That's why the West has imposed sanctions on Russia. But Israel seems to have some sort of exemption from international law in the eyes of hypocritical US and many European administrations.

 

[dexterm]

2 minutes ago, XGM said:

Please, present the figures.

 

The links you provided so far indicates its closer to 100 p.a.. This is in line with the number organizations such as Amnesty and B'tzselem provide.

 

Perhaps you count armed Hamas militants as civilians?

I have provided links. You clearly didn't follow them. Google is your friend.

[sanemax]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

It's very easy to unthinkingly put labels on people or groups.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

 

If you define terrorism by the number of innocent people killed, then Israel is well up there with the worst of them.

That isnt true .

Complete fallacy

 

[Elfin]

12 minutes ago, XGM said:

 

Please provide links to support those points. Sound like false claims again. Water in scarce supply?

I guess you don't have much time to read.

" A decade-long, deadly blockade denies people in Gaza access to nearly every aspect of a normal, decent life, from food and medicine to building supplies and electricity. "

"On average, homes in Gaza have electricity for 2-4 hours daily. Last week 14/07/2017, for the first time, an entire 24-hour period passed without any power whatsoever."

"Palestinians in Gaza are living without reliable refrigeration or potable water. Hospitals can’t offer adequate care. Summer temperatures soar into the 90s with no way to cool homes. The sea is too polluted to offer any relief, because there’s also no way to treat sewage. In the absence of safe sources of light, people turn to candles, a fire hazard that has claimed the lives of children. "

" As the occupying power, the Israeli government bears ultimate responsibility for this crisis. Perhaps because the world at large ignores the daily siege on Gaza, responding only to the most spectacular military violence of direct and sustained attacks, the Israeli government thinks they’ll get away with this continuous devastation because we won’t notice, or won’t care."

Naomi Dann
Media Program Manager

Jewish Voice for Peace (21/07/2017)

[XGM]

2 minutes ago, dexterm said:

I have provided links. You clearly didn't follow them. Google is your friend.

Actually I did. To quote from your last link:

 

"Almost 2,000 Palestinians have been killed, three-quarters of them civilians. "

 

This means 1,500 civilians killed, in one of largest operations of IDF in the last decades. Such operations take place roughly every 5-6 years, after a period Hamas and other organizations manage to rearms and starts to escalate attacks again, whether by rockets, tunnels or individual suicide killers.

 

According to your posts it can be understood such operations take place almost every year.

 

I want to emphasize - the death of every innocent person is a tragedy. But if you want to support claims by numbers, try to use the actual ones.

[craigt3365]

4 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Iran is in Asia last time I looked.

Perhaps Eurasia.  Some references put it in the Middle East.  My reference was to Bangkok.  Squarely in "Asia" proper.

 

I think this one explains it perfectly.  It's part of the Asian Middle East. LOL

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/me.htm

What Is The Middle East And What Countries Are Part Of It?

[XGM]

2 minutes ago, Elfin said:

I guess you don't have much time to read.

" A decade-long, deadly blockade denies people in Gaza access to nearly every aspect of a normal, decent life, from food and medicine to building supplies and electricity. "

"On average, homes in Gaza have electricity for 2-4 hours daily. Last week 14/07/2017, for the first time, an entire 24-hour period passed without any power whatsoever."

"Palestinians in Gaza are living without reliable refrigeration or potable water. Hospitals can’t offer adequate care. Summer temperatures soar into the 90s with no way to cool homes. The sea is too polluted to offer any relief, because there’s also no way to treat sewage. In the absence of safe sources of light, people turn to candles, a fire hazard that has claimed the lives of children. "

" As the occupying power, the Israeli government bears ultimate responsibility for this crisis. Perhaps because the world at large ignores the daily siege on Gaza, responding only to the most spectacular military violence of direct and sustained attacks, the Israeli government thinks they’ll get away with this continuous devastation because we won’t notice, or won’t care."

Naomi Dann
Media Program Manager

Jewish Voice for Peace (21/07/2017)

I don't see a reference to "scarce water supply".

 

Regarding power, did you note reduction in electricity is related to Palestinians refuse to pay for it?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-reduce-electricity-to-gaza-after-pa-refuses-to-pay/

 

[dexterm]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

One Country offering to sell arms to another Country, that isnt "terrorism"

And if those arms are used to kill, maim and terrorize innocent civilians?

 

We clearly have a different set of values.

[nasanews]

Israelis sleep in the same bedroom with Iranians but they pretend otherwise.

[Elfin]

20 minutes ago, XGM said:

Regarding power, did you note reduction in electricity is related to Palestinians refuse to pay for it?

It would suffice to shut down water and electricity supply - both continued as usual from Israel, year after year, regardless" Here you are implying otherwise, and Israel frequently refuses to pass on taxes that it collects on the Palestinians behalf, so if they aint got it it is hard to give it back to Israel isn't it?

[Elfin]

24 minutes ago, XGM said:

I don't see a reference to "scarce water supply".

 

24 minutes ago, XGM said:

"Palestinians in Gaza are living without reliable refrigeration or potable water.

You can look up the meaning of potable for yourself XGM

[ChouDoufu]

1 hour ago, Elfin said:

For Israel, its like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

you mean attempting to sink the uss liberty,

then strafing the survivors in life rafts?

[Elfin]

2 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

 

you mean attempting to sink the uss liberty,

then strafing the survivors in life rafts?

That is one example yes. Typical of them

 

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, XGM said:

 

Israel wouldn't even need to use planes or tanks had it wanted to kill Palestinian civilians.

 

It would suffice to shut down water and electricity supply - both continued as usual from Israel, year after year, regardless of scale of terror attacks launched by Palestinians. In each and every day, goods - food, medicines, cloths, construction material and what not, enters the Gaza strip from Israel.

 

Which other country provides uninterrupted water and electricity supply to its enemies?

Yes the Palestinians should be grateful to the colonizers who were and are stealing their land.

[ilostmypassword]

46 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Beyond insane, IMHO.

So you think the establishment of settlements on the West Bank comports with international law?

[XGM]

6 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Yes the Palestinians should be grateful to the colonizers who were and are stealing their land.

No, they shouldn't be grateful to Israel. They should first be grateful to the Arab countries around Israel, who refused to accept UN resolution regarding the establishment of the country, and decided to attack Israel instead, in order to destroy it. Then should be grateful to them again, for threatening to do the same in 1967, and then in 1973. They should then be grateful to PLO heads who refused to arrive to agreement with Ehud Barak, and today be thankful to Hamas who rejects every negotiation and peaceful resolve of the confict whatsoever.

 

And, in case you don't know, Israeli settlements were evacuated from Gaza strip back in 2005. That's 12 years ago, and done nothing to reduce terror attacks from there.

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by XGM

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, XGM said:

No, they shouldn't be grateful to Israel. They should first be grateful to the Arab countries around Israel, who refused to accept UN resolution regarding the establishment of the country, and decided to attack Israel instead, in order to destroy it. Then should be grateful to them again, for threatening to do the same in 1967, and then in 1973. They should then be grateful to PLO heads who refused to arrive to agreement with Ehud Barak, and today be thankful to Hamas who rejects every negotiation and peaceful resolve of the confict whatsoever.

 

 

Which justifies maltreatment of the Palestinians starting in 1967.

[XGM]

3 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Which justifies maltreatment of the Palestinians starting in 1967.

It justifies nothing. Trying to put the blame on any single side is incorrect.

[sanemax]

19 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Which justifies maltreatment of the Palestinians starting in 1967.

The fact that the Palestinians do not accept Israel as a Country and they wish to destroy Israel is the reason for their treatment .

[GreytMan]

1 hour ago, XGM said:

In 1948, Syria (with the other surrounding countries) objected to the UN resolution stating Israel be established within certain borders and invaded it, with the intention to completely destroy the newly formed country. Then it tried again in 1967 and once again in 1973. Talk of Israel "stealing" neighbor's territory in those circumstances is absurd.

 

Of course this is nonsense. Just a palatable version for you to digest to make yourself feel better about a country borne of terrorism. The stuff of Hollywood movies.

 

The reality is that Israel struck Egypt first, twice. Because of the imminent closure of the Strait of Tiran to them;

 

 

Israel, Britain and France had invaded once before in 1956 when Egypt had previously closed the Strait of Tiran to Israeli shipping.

Pressure from the USA(and of course the USSR) forced the Israeli, British and French out.

 

Quote

The Suez Canal was closed twice.  Once when Israel/UK/France attacked Egypt in 1956, and a second time when Israel attacked Egypt ....in 1967.

 

Read about it, instead of posting fabricated nonsense that paints the Israelis as victims and heroes.

http://www.history.com/topics/cold-war/suez-crisis

 

So on hearing that Gamal Abdel Nasser intended to nationalise the Strait again in 1967 in order to raise funds for the Aswan Dam, Israel launched pre-emptive strikes. Destroying the Egyptian air force whilst that were parked away and attacking the Egyptian army as they evacuated the Sinai. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Canal#Suez_Crisis

 

 

In the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, that was specifically an attack on the Occupied Territories; Sinai and Golan Heights, so hardly an invasion of Israel.

 

Of course many like to paint Israel as the victim of Arab aggression, but that is only half of the story. 

 

Israel is often the aggressor, mainly because it wants to survive and prosper.

[ilostmypassword]

20 minutes ago, sanemax said:

The fact that the Palestinians do not accept Israel as a Country and they wish to destroy Israel is the reason for their treatment .

Basic rule of international law: you don't make civilians you have jurisdiction over pay for the acts of their government.

Edited November 13, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Basic rule of international law: you don't civilians pay for the acts of their government.

You need to edit that and add the missing word 

[sanemax]

9 minutes ago, GreytMan said:

 

Of course this is nonsense. Just a palatable version for you to digest to make yourself feel better about a country borne of terrorism. The stuff of Hollywood movies.

 

 

Israel was "borne" by the U.N.

The World voted for a creation of an Israeli state

[XGM]

4 minutes ago, GreytMan said:

 

Of course this is nonsense. Just a palatable version for you to digest to make yourself feel better about a country borne of terrorism. The stuff of Hollywood movies.

 

The reality is that Israel struck Egypt first, twice. Because of the imminent closure of the Strait of Tiran to them;

 

 

Israel, Britain and France had invaded once before in 1956 when Egypt had previously closed the Strait of Tiran to Israeli shipping.

Pressure from the USA(and of course the USSR) forced the Israeli, British and French out.

 

 

Read about it, instead of posting fabricated nonsense that paints the Israelis as victims and heroes.

http://www.history.com/topics/cold-war/suez-crisis

 

So on hearing that Gamal Abdel Nasser intended to nationalise the Strait again in 1967 in order to raise funds for the Aswan Dam, Israel launched pre-emptive strikes. Destroying the Egyptian air force whilst that were parked away and attacking the Egyptian army as they evacuated the Sinai. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Canal#Suez_Crisis

 

 

In the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, that was specifically an attack on the Occupied Territories; Sinai and Golan Heights, so hardly an invasion of Israel.

 

Of course many like to paint Israel as the victim of Arab aggression, but that is only half of the story. 

 

Israel is often the aggressor, mainly because it wants to survive and prosper.

I don't even know where to start. 

 

Did I mention 1956? No. For a reason. That was indeed a war in which Israel served as a puppet. That was wrong and stupid from Israel's side.

 

Interestingly enough, you preferred not to mention 1948.

 

To address a few of your points, as time permits.

 

1967: yes, it was a preemptive strike, and the closure you mention was one reason. Please read about Nazer's threats here: http://www.sixdaywar.org/content/threats.asp for example:

"In the weeks leading up to the Six Day War, Arab leaders repeatedly threatened Israel with annihilation. Together with Egypt's ejection of United Nations forces, the closing of the Straits of Tiran, and the massing of troops on Israel's northern and southern borders, the fiery rhetoric created a state of existential fear in Israel."
 

May 19, 1967: "This is our chance Arabs, to deal Israel a mortal blow of annihilation, to blot out its entire presence in our holy land" 

May 22, 1967: "The Arab people is firmly resolved to wipe Israel off the map" 

 

So, I guess Israel should have just sat and waited for them to take the initiative and get their tanks in the country, so it could more easily justify its self defense.

 

Regarding 1973, you write: "In the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, that was specifically an attack on the Occupied Territories; Sinai and Golan Heights, so hardly an invasion of Israel."

 

Well... what can one say..? obviously the attacks started at the borders, where else do you expect them to start? I guess Israel should have sat and wait for the forces to arrive to Tel Aviv before starting to defend itself. 

 

[GreytMan]

5 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Israel was "borne" by the U.N.

The World voted for a creation of an Israeli state

 

No, it wasn't. It was borne out of a capitulation of the British to Israeli terrorists in Europe and Mandatory Palestine.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory_Palestine#The_British_decide_to_leave_Palestine

 

 

[XGM]

33 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

So you mean it would be okay for Israel to sell arms to North Korea?

Where do you take this nonsense from? Israel did not sell nuclear weapons to any country. Regarding North Korea, this crazy regime was assisting Syria to obtain nuclear weapons. How can you imagine Israel would do anything to assist them?

 

"on September 6, 2007, Israel reportedly bombed an eastern Syrian complex which was reportedly a nuclear reactor being built with the assistance of North Korea"

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/An-attack-on-a-Syrian-reactor-504735

[GreytMan]

6 minutes ago, XGM said:

I don't even know where to start. 

 

Did I mention 1956? No. For a reason. That was indeed a war in which Israel served as a puppet. That was wrong and stupid from Israel's side.

 

Interestingly enough, you preferred not to mention 1948.

 

To address a few of your points, as time permits.

 

1967: yes, it was a preemptive strike, and the closure you mention was one reason. Please read about Nazer's threats here: http://www.sixdaywar.org/content/threats.asp for example:

"In the weeks leading up to the Six Day War, Arab leaders repeatedly threatened Israel with annihilation. Together with Egypt's ejection of United Nations forces, the closing of the Straits of Tiran, and the massing of troops on Israel's northern and southern borders, the fiery rhetoric created a state of existential fear in Israel."
 

May 19, 1967: "This is our chance Arabs, to deal Israel a mortal blow of annihilation, to blot out its entire presence in our holy land" 

May 22, 1967: "The Arab people is firmly resolved to wipe Israel off the map" 

 

So, I guess Israel should have just sat and waited for them to take the initiative and get their tanks in the country, so it could more easily justify its self defense.

 

Regarding 1973, you write: "In the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, that was specifically an attack on the Occupied Territories; Sinai and Golan Heights, so hardly an invasion of Israel."

 

Well... what can one say..? obviously the attacks started at the borders, where else do you expect them to start? I guess Israel should have sat and wait for the forces to arrive to Tel Aviv before starting to defend itself. 

 

 

No, it wasn't interesting that I didn't begin from 1948. In fact have I not already mentioned the terrorist tactics of the Irgun, Lehi and other terrorist organisations in Mandatory Palestine and in Europe.

 

I'm not going to get drawn into some long recital of past history. Nor will I allow the ridiculous whitewashing of Israeli atrocities and have then painted here as do gooders and heroes.

There is good and bad on every side and everyone wishes to survive and prosper.

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, XGM said:

Well, at least we can agree on one thing. 

Yes, every country wants to survive and prosper.

But there is not a moral equivalence between the actions and motivations of Israel vs. Iran, closer to the actual topic here, or does nobody actually want to discuss the actual topic? 

Iran's clearly stated goal is to completely wipe out the existence of the state of Israel.

Israel's goal has never been to do anything like that to the Islamic Republic of Iran. 

Israel wants to neutralize the THREAT of Iran towards the existence of Israel. That is not about working to end the existence of Iran, which is fully accepted as a given by the state of Israel. See the difference? See the BIG difference?

Edited November 13, 2017 by Jingthing

[Kasset Tak]

4 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Really?  Research the new military base Iran is building in Syria not far from the Israeli border.  Far from hypocrisy....

Israel is an encroachment by itself! UK gave away land that were not theirs to give with the Balfour declaration  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917. And if we don't count that far back then we can see how Israel has taken more and more land from the Palestinians in the occupied areas in more resent years and you have to remember that Israel occupied and stole the Golan Heights from Syria too.
And if you are of those that say that Jews have a historical right to Israel, then I hope you are American... because then you need to realize that all non native Americans have no legal claim to any land or anything in US with a rhetoric like that!!!

[GreytMan]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes, every country wants to survive and prosper.

But there is not a moral equivalence between the actions and motivations of Israel vs. Iran, closer to the actual topic here, or does nobody actually want to discuss the actual topic? 

Iran's clearly stated goal is to completely wipe out the existence of the state of Israel.

Israel's goal has never been to do anything like that to the Islamic Republic of Iran. 

Israel wants to neutralize the THREAT of Iran towards the existence of Israel. That is not about working to end the existence of Iran, which is fully accepted as a given by the state of Israel. See the difference? See the BIG difference?

 

Israel has stated goals too, to completely occupy and dominate Palestine. It would love to dominate it's neighbours too, but it cannot.

If it were really the goal of Iran to wipe Israel off the earth, it would have already happened.

There is a lot of rhetoric spoken for domestic ears. that any intelligent person will understand is not the reality

Israel doesn't even want to have a war with Hizballah, let alone Iran.