Poor really are getting poorer in Thailand

[amvet]

1 hour ago, Gecko123 said:

When I think back 12 years to when I first moved to rural Thailand, I would definitely say there is more poverty nowadays. Yes, a handful of people have managed to buy a new pickup truck, but aside from that, people seem to have less disposable income. Very few new motorbikes, home improvements, or farm equipment, etc. Even the monk ordinations and wedding parties seem more modest than in the past. Sorry, but a smart phone is not much of a sign of affluence in my book. The erratic weather alone explains a lot (droughts, floods, more unpredictability of the weather.)

 

To the posters who claim that children pick up the slack and help out with their elderly parents in rural Thailand, true enough, but I just have to point out that many of these children are barely making enough to support their own hungry wife and kids, so in many cases there's not much charity being shown towards aging parents.

 

But the thing which absolutely petrifies me the most is what will happen after land reform kicks in. As I understand it, much government land will be converted to deeded property, and after a 5 year waiting period, this land will be able to change hands and be consolidated into, no doubt, the hands of the highest bidders, i.e., wealthy landowners and corporate agri-businesses who will be able to benefit from larger scales of operation, and greater mechanization). With land prices already sharply rising in anticipation of these changes, few small farmers will be able to add to their land holdings without massively increasing their household debt levels, which is already reportedly sky high.

 

In other words, small farmers and unlanded farm labor will be driven out, and will probably struggle to find employment in rural Thailand, forcing them to migrate to urban centers to find work. Small retail businesses which rely on these small farmers for their customer base will also suffer.

 

Rural farm workers, in terms of skill sets, are totally unprepared to make this transition. Nor will traditional urban job opportunities, (construction,  taxi drivers, tourism) be able to accommodate this massive influx of unskilled labor. This is why I believe the government is making a disastrous mistake of doing land reform before educational reform. Without educational reform, land reform is just a tinder box waiting to explode, and I fear will make current poverty levels seem moderate in comparison.

There were a lot of poor farmers in the USA.  Henry Ford wanted to get rich.  He cut the price of his model T down so low that poor people could afford it and then raised his daily wage for auto workers 200% to attract the poor farmers to come to the big city and work for him. 

 

I believe something like this happens when a country changes from a poor agrarian country into an industrial giant.  The big agriculture companies then take over the farms to feed the people who move to the city to build the equipment to pick the crops for the big agriculture companies who can afford million dollar crop harvesting equipment.   Some have referred to it as the industrial revolution.  100 years ago 50% of the USA worked in Agriculture now it's about 2%.  Same thing will happen to Thailand.

[billd766]

On 11/19/2017 at 2:21 PM, jenny2017 said:

 

     

Not many Isaan farmers have money to buy lottery tickets.

 

To mention poor people who have to borrow money to pay the school fees into a system that supposed to be free?

 

  You can't throw them all in one pot, can you? 

 

  

 

       

 

       

 

School fees also include uniforms, books, insurance, lunch and in some cases the school bus.

 

My son goes to school m15 km away.

 

He normally wears a white shirt and brown shorts on Monday, Tuesday and Friday, Scout uniform on a Wednesday and blue shirt and track suit bottoms on Thursday, except when he doesn't as the school  dress code changes some weeks.

 

I have 5 sets of white/brown, 1 scout set and 2 blue sets which makes 8 sets plus 2 sets of brown shoes and 1 set of white trainers.

 

There is no school bus to take him but our neighbours daughter  and a friends son go to the same school so we share the transport costs 1 week in every 3.

 

They are enrolled in the Mini English Language Programme and on Saturday I paid 10,000 baht for the second term.

 

Free schooling in rural Thailand is free with added costs of books, uniform and transport etc and wil only give kids a very basic education and little in the way of prospects for a good future life.

 

Parents will do the best they can to give their children a better future even to going into debt themselves. Their parents did and their children will probably do the same thing themselves for their children.

[Sid Celery]

Thank God the Thai education system satisfies the needs of so many of the people responsible for educating the Thai people.

 

Otherwise I don't suppose it would be very good - right?

[jenny2017]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

School fees also include uniforms, books, insurance, lunch and in some cases the school bus.

 

My son goes to school m15 km away.

 

He normally wears a white shirt and brown shorts on Monday, Tuesday and Friday, Scout uniform on a Wednesday and blue shirt and track suit bottoms on Thursday, except when he doesn't as the school  dress code changes some weeks.

 

I have 5 sets of white/brown, 1 scout set and 2 blue sets which makes 8 sets plus 2 sets of brown shoes and 1 set of white trainers.

 

There is no school bus to take him but our neighbours daughter  and a friends son go to the same school so we share the transport costs 1 week in every 3.

 

They are enrolled in the Mini English Language Programme and on Saturday I paid 10,000 baht for the second term.

 

Free schooling in rural Thailand is free with added costs of books, uniform and transport etc and wil only give kids a very basic education and little in the way of prospects for a good future life.

 

Parents will do the best they can to give their children a better future even to going into debt themselves. Their parents did and their children will probably do the same thing themselves for their children.

Some kids have to commute hundreds of kilometers a day, only to be able to attend at the “best schools in town.” It might be better and also in your interest that neither these kids, nor you, the parents, will ever know details about the place.

 

If Dekchai Somchai isn’t from the city and mom and dad are trying to get them in, a special fee, not less than 30 K is needed to get a seat in a hot and crowded classroom with 49 other kids/teenagers.

 

“The school will build a new meeting hall, but they only have 400 K, but it will be an investment of more than a million baht”, and other stories are told to parents to make it clear that nothing  goes without some financial help.

 

 There’s a time when I bought books and gave the kids the 20 % teacher discount that I had received. Of course was that not liked by the so hard working and in their free time bookselling Thai teachers.

 

You’d think that books are usually chosen because of their quality and educationally perfect content? Nope, it’s often only about the percentage the dealing teacher receives from a certain book company. The PO has his hands in everything, from selling fatty foods, to coke with up to 90 % ice inside to make your child to one more hyperactive child.

 

What’s wrong with our Sushi, Flench Flies n’ stuff? Mai Pen Rai, we have a special needs section!!

 

Just wait for the next teacher/ parents/ director meeting, when they’ll tell you that a huge pool is urgently needed to push the school to an even more prestigious institution downtown. The times with the educated NES teachers are long gone, and an hour per day will make your child fluent in Tagalog.

 

Oh, BTW, the whole sports dress for your little one can only be bought at our financial office, for only twice the money that you’d pay at a local shop. WE are World Class, how about you?  

[metisdead]

Some offensive troll posts and replies have been removed. 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, jenny2017 said:

Some kids have to commute hundreds of kilometers a day, only to be able to attend at the “best schools in town.” It might be better and also in your interest that neither these kids, nor you, the parents, will ever know details about the place.

 

If Dekchai Somchai isn’t from the city and mom and dad are trying to get them in, a special fee, not less than 30 K is needed to get a seat in a hot and crowded classroom with 49 other kids/teenagers.

 

“The school will build a new meeting hall, but they only have 400 K, but it will be an investment of more than a million baht”, and other stories are told to parents to make it clear that nothing  goes without some financial help.

 

 There’s a time when I bought books and gave the kids the 20 % teacher discount that I had received. Of course was that not liked by the so hard working and in their free time bookselling Thai teachers.

 

You’d think that books are usually chosen because of their quality and educationally perfect content? Nope, it’s often only about the percentage the dealing teacher receives from a certain book company. The PO has his hands in everything, from selling fatty foods, to coke with up to 90 % ice inside to make your child to one more hyperactive child.

 

What’s wrong with our Sushi, Flench Flies n’ stuff? Mai Pen Rai, we have a special needs section!!

 

Just wait for the next teacher/ parents/ director meeting, when they’ll tell you that a huge pool is urgently needed to push the school to an even more prestigious institution downtown. The times with the educated NES teachers are long gone, and an hour per day will make your child fluent in Tagalog.

 

Oh, BTW, the whole sports dress for your little one can only be bought at our financial office, for only twice the money that you’d pay at a local shop. WE are World Class, how about you?  

 

Actually he used to go to a school in Khampaeng Phet 65 km away leaving at 05:45 and returning around 18:00 daily. We used to get the receipt for his school clothes and it was refunded by the school.

 

Yes we did know about the school and visited it before he joined and visited it 2 or 3 times a year while he was there.

He didn't make the cut for the school he wanted in KPP and now goes to one only 15 km away with a reduction in fees (not much) but less travelling time. Yes we did check the school out before he went there and yes we do visit on a regular basis.

 

Unfortunately this school does not refund the cost of the uniforms, but that is covered by the lesser travelling costs.

 

quote

 

"If Dekchai Somchai isn’t from the city and mom and dad are trying to get them in, a special fee, not less than 30 K is needed to get a seat in a hot and crowded classroom with 49 other kids/teenagers."

 

There are only 25 pupils in my son's class and not 49 and the annual cost is around 22k and not 30k.

 

In his previous school the cost was around 25k but still only 25 pupils in the class.

 

Of course us living in Nakhon Nowhere might account for the difference.

 

The school books they use are M1 Focus Smart books and I can download most of them from the internet.

Edited November 20, 2017 by billd766
Added extra text

[mommysboy]

On 19/11/2017 at 8:13 PM, JAG said:

If there are a very large number of poor people, even a small amount per person adds up to a large sum, especially if it is transferred to a very small number of people on the top of the pile....

 

By the way, not a bad Mr Spock impression!

This is indeed how it works imo.  Moreover, it is not a physical theft as in a scam, or burglarly- it's just undervaluing labour.

 

Quite often people target the poor, with their underlying belief being that the economic system works for everybody, particularly those who try.  It may be the case that one can criticise a peer for being lazy, stupid, etc, when all things are equal, but to blame the poor for their predicament is quite wrong imo, as they are victims really.

 

 

[JAG]

This is indeed how it works imo.  Moreover, it is not a physical theft as in a scam, or burglarly- it's just undervaluing labour.

 

Quite often people target the poor, with their underlying belief being that the economic system works for everybody, particularly those who try.  It may be the case that one can criticise a peer for being lazy, stupid, etc, when all things are equal, but to blame the poor for their predicament is quite wrong imo, as they are victims really.

 

 

You are spot on as far as undervaluing labour is concerned.

Perhaps one of the symptoms or results of this ( the dividing line is blurred) is the system here of defining a minimum (or other) wage as a daily rate, rather than on an hourly basis? It is certainly leaves the worker far more open to being exploited in terms of the hours they have to work.

 

Sent from my KENNY using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[Redline]

It's all working exactly as intended.

[Rangerdriver]

Buy every scheme makes people rich otherwise they wouldn't bother doing them.

Sent from my ASUS_Z002 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Muggi1968]

Human nature

[Coconut007]

On 11/19/2017 at 1:21 PM, Cadbury said:

That's before building 1700 kms of dreamtime high speed train routes at an expected cost of 640,000,000 baht per kilometre.  

So we have:

1,000,000,000,000 baht for 1700 kms of high speed train lines (cost of trains additional)

36,000,000,000 baht for three Chinese submarines,

8,256,000,000 baht for jet trainers from Korea

7,520,000,000 baht for Sikorsky Black Hawk helicopters from US

1,900,000,000 baht for Chinese tanks

2,300,000,000 baht for Chinese APCs     

 

Just for the military hardware alone the cost is 56,000,000,000 baht. Buying military hardware does virtually NOTHING to improve the economy except perhaps growth the wealth of some of the already rich.

The commissions and kickbacks on these deals would be the stuff dreams are made of.

Wonder what the budget deficit will look like in another 5 - 10 years. The military looks to be on course to bankrupt the country by the end of all their 20 year plans.

Little wonder there is no money left over for the poor and the farmers.

 

(E&OE)

Great comment

 

Someone who wish well for Thailand should translate it in Thai into a nice vertical photo and spend $100 on FB advertising to push it out... it would gain traction for sure, and FB is the only thing that ever get listened to

[icare999]

On 19 November 2017 at 4:54 AM, Samui Bodoh said:

 

Unfortunately, I am not surprised by this news, and I suspect that few others are surprised either; when the poor lose their representation, it follows that they lose their influence as well

 

The truly sad news is that the trend is likely to continue until there is a government that focus' on the poor, and that is likely a ways into the future...

 

Sad times..

555 rich are getting richer everywhere and poor are getting poorer 555 if you thimnk its because of this government and not globalisation 

[baboon]

1 hour ago, icare999 said:

555 rich are getting richer everywhere and poor are getting poorer 555 if you thimnk its because of this government and not globalisation 

So that gives the military of any country the right to stage a coup, form a government and declare themselves omnipotent? 

[jcsmith]

On 11/19/2017 at 5:02 AM, ezzra said:

a young guard girl with no formal education get over 10,000 baht a month at our condo,

I know people with bachelor degrees who make less than that. 

[simoh1490]

Twenty years ago the rural poor comprised over 80% of the population, the middle class was a new phenomenon that they all aspired to. Today, the middle class account for over 55% of the population..........don't tell me the poor are getting poorer, only in your limited time frameand restricted line of sight are they doing so.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, simoh1490 said:

Twenty years ago the rural poor comprised over 80% of the population, the middle class was a new phenomenon that they all aspired to. Today, the middle class account for over 55% of the population..........don't tell me the poor are getting poorer, only in your limited time frameand restricted line of sight are they doing so.

 

Do you have any links to the figures that you mention?

 

I live in rural Thailand and there are a lot more poor people than there are middle class.

[bangrak]

What a surprise (NOT)! The wealthy are getting more wealthy at a v x v' pace in Thailand, what else to expect then? No miraclesin maths. Three years ago, there were a few(!) bits among the many (unkept) promises of changes and reforms about reducing the stellar distance between 'base' and 'top' in Thailand, the 'concentration of wealth', but, at the time being, the 'solution' implemented seems to have rather been to make military brass richer, ...serving the interests of the wealthy 1 odd percent holding power, whatever pseudo-government is in place TRT/PPP/PTP, or DP, ...or military. I'm not Thai, but as a large number of Thais, I did believe in the promises. How silly am I? But, not being Thai, I don't directly suffer from it. For them, it must be so hard to discover, more and more, they have been fooled again, one more time. Though it seems, displeased or angered they might be, lame and tame they remain, 'the system' really has made a 'good' job reducing a population to modern slavery, ...while calling them 'the free' and 'the brave', what's in a name...?

[bangrak]

2 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Twenty years ago the rural poor comprised over 80% of the population, the middle class was a new phenomenon that they all aspired to. Today, the middle class account for over 55% of the population..........don't tell me the poor are getting poorer, only in your limited time frameand restricted line of sight are they doing so.

55% of the population is middle class?! Come on, get real! Wherefrom did you get such blown-up figures, please let us know! Like 55% paying income tax then, LOL...

[PremiumLane]

On 11/19/2017 at 5:02 AM, ezzra said:

This figure represent less than 10% of the population, almost every Thai 

person owns a smartphone, a motorcycle or and a piece of gold ornaments,

most Thais now days will scoff at a minimum wage days work, a young guard

girl with no formal education get over 10,000 baht a month at our condo,

Thai people get fat and drink a lot, and travel overseas frequently, 

however, there's a serious issue with the elderly and the disabled who

has to do with a peanuts for living and something clearly has to be done there....

What a surprise, the usual nonsense you spout

[simoh1490]

6 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Do you have any links to the figures that you mention?

 

I live in rural Thailand and there are a lot more poor people than there are middle class.

 

5 hours ago, bangrak said:

55% of the population is middle class?! Come on, get real! Wherefrom did you get such blown-up figures, please let us know! Like 55% paying income tax then, LOL...

There's a huge amount of data on this subject on the internet and discussions on the subject of middle class in Thailand have been waged every few years on TVF since 2006 - do a search and see what's out there. Middle class is defined in this context as middle income:

 

This study pts Thailands poor at 25% in 2010 but shrinking to <15% by 2020 = see page 17: https://www.adb.org/sites/default/files/publication/27726/special-chapter-02.pdf

 

Growth of the middle class in Thailand and Malaysia over the past 20 years is one of ASEANS great sucess stories: https://academlib.com/15306/environment/capacity_development_important_asia-a_tool_leapfrog

 

GNI per capita of ASEAN countries puts Thailand at number 4, overall, 55% of the ASEAN population will be considered middle class by 2020 - Thailands middle class is much higher as a percentage but the average is brought down as a result f high numbers of rural poor in Indonesia, Laos, Myanmar and Cambodia. http://economists-pick-research.hktdc.com/business-news/article/Research-Articles/Modern-Consumerism-in-ASEAN-An-Overview/rp/en/1/1X000000/1X0A76ZJ.htm

 

[simoh1490]

This is a 2015 market survey that contains interesting data, not the least of which is The World Bank has upgraded Thailand to "upper middle income" status. But look at the ratio's of income and expenditure by region, interesting:

 

 

http://economists-pick-research.hktdc.com/business-news/article/Research-Articles/ASEAN-in-Focus-The-Thai-Consumer-Market/rp/en/1/1X000000/1X0A8YMK.htm

[simoh1490]

"The upper middle class already accounts for a quarter of the population of Thailand" 

 

https://www.bcg.com/publications/2016/globalization-growth-capitalizing-asias-booming-upper-middle-class.aspx

[simoh1490]

7 hours ago, bangrak said:

What a surprise (NOT)! The wealthy are getting more wealthy at a v x v' pace in Thailand, what else to expect then? No miraclesin maths. Three years ago, there were a few(!) bits among the many (unkept) promises of changes and reforms about reducing the stellar distance between 'base' and 'top' in Thailand, the 'concentration of wealth', but, at the time being, the 'solution' implemented seems to have rather been to make military brass richer, ...serving the interests of the wealthy 1 odd percent holding power, whatever pseudo-government is in place TRT/PPP/PTP, or DP, ...or military. I'm not Thai, but as a large number of Thais, I did believe in the promises. How silly am I? But, not being Thai, I don't directly suffer from it. For them, it must be so hard to discover, more and more, they have been fooled again, one more time. Though it seems, displeased or angered they might be, lame and tame they remain, 'the system' really has made a 'good' job reducing a population to modern slavery, ...while calling them 'the free' and 'the brave', what's in a name...?

What a load of rubbish that is! If you would have seen Bangkok or Chiang Mai twenty years ago you would realise that neither place bears any resemblance whatsoever to those cities today, nor the people in those cities - tens of millions of lives and livelihoods have improved drastically over that period. 20 years ago there was no skytrain, no plethora of five-star hotels, no Paragon, no central world, no mass of high rise condominium blocks. 20 years ago it was tough going trying to find decent western food and in many cases, easily find people who spoke passable English - 20 years ago rural farm girls were selling themselves ion Bangkok streets for the price of a days food, 90 baht! The surge of wealth that has permeated Thai society at all levels over the past twenty years is well documented, the rich have got richer but the poor have become wealthier, fewer people exist at poverty levels, the middle class (that all rural poor aspire to) has expanded massively, the upper middle class has been created and has now grown to 15% of the population. So be very  careful about commenting on things you really don't understand or can't even imagine, drawing socio/economic conclusions based on a comparison of what you see in your narrow line of sight and comparing that with the way you think things ought to be is pointless and futile, more importantly, you're going to be wrong, 100% of the time.     

[Srikcir]

1 hour ago, simoh1490 said:

So be very  careful about commenting on things you really don't understand or can't even imagine, drawing socio/economic conclusions based on a comparison of what you see in your narrow line of sight and comparing that with the way you think things ought to be

There does however, seem to be a paradox to reduction of poor to low income people. Except for Bangkok that saw a slight decrease in unemployment (due to increases in government & civil service employment?), the rest of Thailand is seeing recent moderate to large increases in unemployment.

http://web.nso.go.th/en/survey/data_survey/200260_summary_Jan_2017.pdf

 

[simoh1490]

11 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

There does however, seem to be a paradox to reduction of poor to low income people. Except for Bangkok that saw a slight decrease in unemployment (due to increases in government & civil service employment?), the rest of Thailand is seeing recent moderate to large increases in unemployment.

http://web.nso.go.th/en/survey/data_survey/200260_summary_Jan_2017.pdf

 

Which is why the transient population of Bangkok is double its resident population, because people from areas where there is a shortage of work, go there to work - ditto Phuket, ditto Pattaya. http://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/bangkok-population/

 

It's perhaps also worth pointing out that the percentage of unemployed in each of those areas, in both years, is still under 1.4% hence an increase from say 1.08% to 1.36% still does not represent a significant volume of people.

Edited November 29, 2017 by simoh1490

[starky]

On 11/19/2017 at 6:19 AM, ezzra said:

Here are some sobering poverty figures for you,

USA 12.7%  Canada 9.4%  Aust 13.3% UK 6.5% and no, you don't

own luxury items when you're poor, and you take any job being offerd

to you, currently there are over a million of alien workers in Thailand,

not because there's so much work, because Thai people will not get

their hands dirty in menial jobs any longer....

 

<deleted>! in Australia there are families that have been on welfare for 3 generations, living in public housing pulling down a few hundred a week with phones and cars and smokes and alcohol and the take exactly zero of the jobs they are offered. Dont compare welfare leaches in Australia to poor rural Thais that is a joke.

[Srikcir]

11 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

It's perhaps also worth pointing out

 .... also that in the next election campaign it wouldn't be wise to point out to the unemployed that they do not represent a significant volume of people.

 

It's also worth examining why Thailand has the world's reported lowest unemployment rate:

• Jobs in informal sectors such as street(/canal) vendors, motorcycle taxi drivers, the self-employed (i., farmers) are not defined as being gainfully employed.
• The "underemployed" who are working at minimal or subpar pay but not really necessary.
• Part-time workers looking for a full-time job.
• Seasonally employed farm workers and unregistered foreign workers.

http://www.pattayamail.com/thailandnews/bloomberg-thailand-has-one-of-the-lowest-unemployment-rates-45459

• Thais who left the country to seek employment (my addition)

So maybe the reported number of unemployed is more significant than some want to acknowledge.

[simoh1490]

2 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

 .... also that in the next election campaign it wouldn't be wise to point out to the unemployed that they do not represent a significant volume of people.

 

It's also worth examining why Thailand has the world's reported lowest unemployment rate:

• Jobs in informal sectors such as street(/canal) vendors, motorcycle taxi drivers, the self-employed (i., farmers) are not defined as being gainfully employed.
• The "underemployed" who are working at minimal or subpar pay but not really necessary.
• Part-time workers looking for a full-time job.
• Seasonally employed farm workers and unregistered foreign workers.

http://www.pattayamail.com/thailandnews/bloomberg-thailand-has-one-of-the-lowest-unemployment-rates-45459

• Thais who left the country to seek employment (my addition)

So maybe the reported number of unemployed is more significant than some want to acknowledge.

Thailand has used the same sampling method to calculate unemployment levels for many years so there's no reason to believe the technique used to calculate the number of unemployed is wrong or has been changed. Whether or not people think the numbers are manipulated belongs in the same bin as THB manipulation!

 

If exports were continuously falling, if tourist numbers were in decline, if BOT foreign currency reserves were falling, if NPL's were increasing dramatically....then I would say the unemployment numbers need greater scrutiny, as things stand all those indicators are going in the opposite direction hence I'm inclined to believe the numbers are broadly correct and in line with historic ranges.

[Eric Loh]

4 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Thailand has used the same sampling method to calculate unemployment levels for many years so there's no reason to believe the technique used to calculate the number of unemployed is wrong or has been changed. Whether or not people think the numbers are manipulated belongs in the same bin as THB manipulation!

 

If exports were continuously falling, if tourist numbers were in decline, if BOT foreign currency reserves were falling, if NPL's were increasing dramatically....then I would say the unemployment numbers need greater scrutiny, as things stand all those indicators are going in the opposite direction hence I'm inclined to believe the numbers are broadly correct and in line with historic ranges.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/.../why-thailand-unemployment-rate-is-ri... - แปลหน้านี้