Dual Passport Problem / Overstay

[007 RED]

2 hours ago, realenglish1 said:

It is not an issue since immigration does not care about a Thai who entered the Kingdom......

 

If Thai immigration do not care about a Thai who enters and leaves the Kingdom, then why do they have to go through the immigration check point?

 

I can assure you that if this lady has been previously checked out of the Kingdom on her Thai passport and then she submits it to the IO on her forthcoming departure, it will be ‘flagged up’ and the IO will no doubt be asking questions as to why she is not showing as having arrived in the Kingdom.

 

Bear in mind that the Immigration Act (Sections: 11: 18 & 62) can penalise a Thai national who has entered the Kingdom incorrectly or without submitting the correct documentation which can result in a fine not exceeding 20,000Baht.

 

What the IO will do in this particular case is anyone’s guess.

[Mattd]

5 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

What the IO will do in this particular case is anyone’s guess.

100% agree, we can all speculate, but none us truly know the answer.

I do wonder what would happen if she had previously departed Thailand on her Thai passport and then tried to depart Thailand on her Thai passport via an egate, there surely is a possibility that it would not allow her to depart due to the discrepancy of her technically not being in the country? The office building I work in has a smart card system for entry / exit for the lift lobbies, if the system did not register you going through it (in either direction) then it will not open to let you through again.

In this age of terrorism, then I am not entirely convinced that Governments don't care about the movement of their citizens, especially dual passport holders.

[007 RED]

40 minutes ago, BritTim said:

I believe you are quoting the correct translation of Section 62. However, I do not think the penalties under Section 62 apply to overstays. They basically are concerned with illegal entry.

 

The penalties for overstay are addressed in Section 81, and are (I believe) only intended to apply to foreigners. I do not think it is possible for Thai citizens to actually be on overstay, unless they are denying their citizenship status. Entering Thailand using a foreign passport does muddy the waters, but I do not think a judge would uphold a fine applicable only to aliens once Thai citizenship was established.

Tim… you are absolutely correct in pointing out that Section 62 penalty deals with illegal entry (including Thai nationals) and not overstay.  My post was in response to another person (Post 18) who introduced Section 62 and then miss-quoted the possible fine, and then said that I was talking nonsense when I pointed out the error.  Sorry if that went off topic.

 

I think you are also correct in your assumption that a Thai national cannot be charged with overstay.  However, the lady in question entered the Kingdom using her Dutch passport, so technically she is here as a Dutch citizen, not a Thai national.  She may well find that immigration will regard her as a Dutch citizen who has overstayed by 11 months and as such she could be liable to a 20,000 Baht overstay fine and a possible one year ban being stamped in her Dutch passport for overstaying longer than 90 days.

 

The ban on the Dutch passport will not cause her a problem provided that if she wants to visits the Kingdom again in the future she remembers to uses her Thai Passport.  She will just not be able to use the Dutch one until the ban period has run out.  Also getting a new Dutch passport will not work as the immigration system will quickly link her new passport to the old one.

 

Regarding your observation that a Judge would be unlikely to impose a fine on a Thai National.  That may possibly be true, but I’m not in a position to comment on that.  However, to make such an appeal would be both costly and time consuming bearing in mind how ‘efficient’ the Thai legal system is.

[007 RED]

33 minutes ago, Mattd said:

100% agree, we can all speculate, but none us truly know the answer.

I do wonder what would happen if she had previously departed Thailand on her Thai passport and then tried to depart Thailand on her Thai passport via an egate, there surely is a possibility that it would not allow her to depart due to the discrepancy of her technically not being in the country? The office building I work in has a smart card system for entry / exit for the lift lobbies, if the system did not register you going through it (in either direction) then it will not open to let you through again.

In this age of terrorism, then I am not entirely convinced that Governments don't care about the movement of their citizens, especially dual passport holders.

Quite correct about the egate in the scenario you gave.  The moment that she puts her passport onto the scanner the immigration system will flag up a possible problem e.g. previous exit but no entry, and an IO will then take her to one side for further examination/questioning.

[BritTim]

29 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

I think you are also correct in your assumption that a Thai national cannot be charged with overstay.  However, the lady in question entered the Kingdom using her Dutch passport, so technically she is here as a Dutch citizen, not a Thai national.  She may well find that immigration will regard her as a Dutch citizen who has overstayed by 11 months and as such she could be liable to a 20,000 Baht overstay fine and a possible one year ban being stamped in her Dutch passport for overstaying longer than 90 days.

I have no doubt you are correct that some immigration officials might decide a Thai with dual nationality should be treated as a foreigner when traveling with a foreign passport. It is even conceivable that a judge might uphold that viewpoint. Courts can sometimes be as lacking in logic as other sections of the population. That said, I do not think the intent of the law is to assess penalties for Thai citizens depending on the travel document they decide to use. Section 81 ought not to apply to Thai citizens. They cannot be fined, arrested, deported or blacklisted for overstay once their citizenship is established. Think how ludicrous it would be for a Thai who happens not to have the money to pay for a ticket to Holland to languish for years in the IDC because the travel document used was issued in Holland.

[realenglish1]

1 hour ago, Jonmarleesco said:

Obviously she does when entering on the Thai passport. And if she left on it, having not entered on it, certainly questions would arise. 

Thai immigration is looking for overstays  not dual citizens

 

[Mattd]

There must have been some precedent set in law at some point, because a Thai citizen using a foreign passport in Thailand can (and should if the situation dictates) get a one year extension of stay based on being Thai, if the law did not care about how they entered, that provision would surely not be in place?

[roath]

On the basis that she does have some stamps in her Thai passport showing exit but no entry back into Thailand, she could go to immigration and clear her overstay in country (possibly by negotiating the overstay fee on the basis that if she argued it and went to Court, then the fine may be much lower than the 20,000 maximum), and then get a 1 year extension based on Thai nationality, which at least means that she can continue to remain in-country and the leave the country without any issues

[UKJASE]

Thanks for all your help with this guys - she will appreciate everyone's opinions. 

 

I asked her when her thai passport was issued, and it was issued after she arrived back to Thailand, after a long time away.  So it does not have any exit stamps in it, in fact it has never been used.

 

Will this make it easier just for her to leave on her thai passport, and enter europe on her dutch passport?

 

Also, is there a chance that upon return, she will be stamped out, and not stamped into an onward country (on her thai passport) so the IO will ask to see her other passport, at which time the overstay may show up?

[Hans Rayong]

Yingluck Shinawatra had four passports.

I know many Thai people who have more than one passport.

If you go in or out of Thailand as a citizen, you can use the machines and you will not receive a stamp in your passport.

[007 RED]

1 hour ago, UKJASE said:

Thanks for all your help with this guys - she will appreciate everyone's opinions. 

 

I asked her when her thai passport was issued, and it was issued after she arrived back to Thailand, after a long time away.  So it does not have any exit stamps in it, in fact it has never been used.

 

Will this make it easier just for her to leave on her thai passport, and enter europe on her dutch passport?

 

Also, is there a chance that upon return, she will be stamped out, and not stamped into an onward country (on her thai passport) so the IO will ask to see her other passport, at which time the overstay may show up?

OK your friend has a new (clean) Thai passport, but unfortunately that does not guarantee that she will not encounter a problem when leaving the Kingdom using it.

 

Regardless of her going through the eGate, or presenting her Thai passport to the IO, the moment that the passport is scanned (the scanner reads the information at the bottom of the photo page between the <<<< >>>>) the immigration system will detect that the Thai passport is not known to the system.  The system will then do a cross-check using the gender code + date of birth + family name + first name(s) against the details held in the immigration database.  Despite the massive size of the database, the cross-check actually only takes a matter of seconds.

 

As you previously advised, your friends details are the same in both passports, therefore, the system will almost certainly (that is to say greater than 80% chance) identify that there is a Dutch passport in the system having the same personal details.  This will be flagged up on the IO’s monitor who will also be presented with the photo of your friend which was taken when she was admitted to the Kingdom on her Dutch passport.

 

Sorry to be so pessimistic, but as I said in an earlier post, unfortunately your friend has dropped herself in the proverbial fertiliser and unfortunately there is no easy or set solution to the problem.  Much will depend on the IO, which no one can predict.

 

If I was in her shoes, I would expect the worse.  That is to say prepare for the possibility of a 20,000 Baht fine for the 11 month overstay and a one year ban in her Dutch passport.  Anything less than that will be a bonus.  As mentioned before, if this does happen she will still be able to return to Thailand but she must ensure that she uses her Thai passport.  Although the Thai and Dutch passports will be linked on the Immigration system, as a Thai citizen she will be not be denied entry when using her Thai passport.

 

Regarding re-entering the Netherlands with her Dutch passport, that should not be a problem as more and more countries no longer engross passports with entry/exit stamps.

 

Good luck to your friend and let us know the eventual outcome.

[LolaS]

7 hours ago, stevenl said:

No problem at all with dual citizenship in the Netherlands.

but I was told, I need to renounce of mine, if I want to get dutch.

[NanLaew]

5 hours ago, realenglish1 said:

Thai immigration is looking for overstays  not dual citizens

 

The lady in question is on overstay.

 

2 hours ago, Hans Rayong said:

...

If you go in or out of Thailand as a citizen, you can use the machines and you will not receive a stamp in your passport.

And if the machines scan a passport that has an inexplicable gap in the exit/entry dates and/or sequencing, the gates won't open, a light will come on in the nearby office and a nice friendly immigration officer will escort the suspect to the office where there's all sorts of stamps to chose from.

[Hans Rayong]

Just get a new Thai passport and you will have no gap.

[OJAS]

3 hours ago, Hans Rayong said:

Just get a new Thai passport and you will have no gap.

Little point in doing this, I think, in view of this comment from the OP:-

 

6 hours ago, UKJASE said:

I asked her when her thai passport was issued, and it was issued after she arrived back to Thailand, after a long time away.  So it does not have any exit stamps in it, in fact it has never been used.

 

[Mattd]

16 hours ago, Hans Rayong said:

If you go in or out of Thailand as a citizen, you can use the machines and you will not receive a stamp in your passport.

There may not be a physical stamp in the passport, but there is still a record of an entry or departure held in the database that can be cross referenced.

Which is technically more secure than relying on stamps in a passport, as these can be missed by an IO.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Mattd

[stevenl]

14 hours ago, LolaS said:

but I was told, I need to renounce of mine, if I want to get dutch.

Yes, some people say that, even some 'ambtenaren van de burgelijke stand'. Not correct, if there are proven major disadvantages to losing one's nationality, like not being able to obtain land', you don't have to renounce.

[LolaS]

10 hours ago, stevenl said:

Yes, some people say that, even some 'ambtenaren van de burgelijke stand'. Not correct, if there are proven major disadvantages to losing one's nationality, like not being able to obtain land', you don't have to renounce.

what should I do? I cannot renounce mine, bcs I will loose right on land in my home country. do you know the Dutch law that can describe this issue.

[stevenl]

25 minutes ago, LolaS said:

what should I do? I cannot renounce mine, bcs I will loose right on land in my home country. do you know the Dutch law that can describe this issue.

Easiest: just tell them you'll renounce, but don't renounce.

[stevenl]

11 hours ago, LolaS said:

what should I do? I cannot renounce mine, bcs I will loose right on land in my home country. do you know the Dutch law that can describe this issue.

I'll send you a PM

[FritsSikkink]

13 hours ago, LolaS said:

what should I do? I cannot renounce mine, bcs I will loose right on land in my home country. do you know the Dutch law that can describe this issue.

You don't tell the Dutch government you got a Thai passport and you don't tell the Thai government you have a Dutch passport.