Defying warnings of unrest, Trump recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

[harada]

This ones for you Jared. 

[zydeco]

2 minutes ago, harada said:

This ones for you Jared. 

Now, that is funny!

[dexterm]

38 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The Palestinians would gain nothing much from perusing the course of action you prescribe. Even if the suggested  diplomatic and legal endeavors will be successful, which is far from guaranteed.

 

As it stands, the Palestinians do not have a leadership capable of making the sort of decisions that need to be taken, nor does it have the capacity to follow through. The Palestinians remain divided, and without the social and political infrastructure required to build a sustainable self governance, let alone an independent, democratic state.

 

As usual, you seem to disregard any negative consequences associated with taking such a course of action, or the very real possibility that regional (and even global) circumstances and factors will change (and not necessarily for the Palestinians' benefit).

 

Much like Trump, you seem to favor showmanship and drama.

>>The Palestinians would gain nothing much from perusing the course of action you prescribe.   = they would gain something

 

On the contrary, your usual understatement belies the fact that Palestine only just lost the vote for full UN member status in 2014 due to last minute US and Israeli interference. They would get a more favourable reception this time and the US would be forced to use their veto.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/us-israel-un-reject-palestinian-resolution-nigeria-security-council

 

Trump would then be further exposed for the hypocrite he is, who ostensibly supports a Palestinian state in a two state solution, then rejecting it in the UN. Perhaps it would also encourage more countries to recognize Palestine to add to the 136 that already do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine

 

Palestine has not got much to fight back with against the Zionist/US juggernaut, but fighting back is the only way to deal with bullies. Nothing at all to be gained by simply rolling over.

 

History and time is on the side of the Palestinians. There never was a colonial power even with buddies like Trump who could continue to suppress the freedom of the indigenous majority forever. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by dexterm

[Jingthing]

This ones for you Jared. 

Jared yes but more than that it's for the most loyal LARGE segment of his base - - Christian evangelicals. He picked Christian fundamentalist extremist Pence for them and a crafty pick it was. Pence in the wings makes impeaching the clown troll deserved as it is considerably less appealing. A recent quote about Pence paraphrased - - "What's scary about Pence is not that he believes in God but rather his belief that God believes in him."

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[Rimmer]

A post and a reply using a derogatory term for Muslims has been removed

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

There is no assurance that the Palestinians would get a more favorable reception, and as pointed out, the USA may very well use veto rights and apply other pressure to block such moves. Regardless, even in case the Palestinians do succeed in some of these efforts - the actual benefits are questionable.

 

As obvious from your posts, the focus offered  is not related to bettering the situation of the Palestinians, resolving the conflict or any such - but more to do with sorting an imaginary score sheet. What would the Palestinians actually gain from "exposing the USA's hypocrisy", or "getting a full UN member status"? That is, concrete gains as opposed to propaganda memes and slogans.

 

[PatOngo]

3 hours ago, MadMuhammad said:

And there is so much peace and quiet now? It definitely can’t make anything worse. 

 

Trump, standing my his promises. A rare breed. 

The "Wall" is making great progress since it started on day 1 of his presidency! And who's gonna pay for it.........?  

[yardrunner]

3 hours ago, MadMuhammad said:

And there is so much peace and quiet now? It definitely can’t make anything worse. 

 

Trump, standing my his promises. A rare breed. 

And it is good that he is a rare breed and the sooner extinct the better

 

[Morch]

 

Trying to find a silver lining in this latest mess, a couple of things come to mind.

 

Any peace deal brokered would entail some serious concessions from both sides. Following this move, the Trump administration may be in a better position to apply pressure on Netanyahu in this regard. So it could be that Trump's statement would prove to be a poisoned chalice. Or from another angle, it may provide Netanyahu with the alibi for accepting USA peace deal terms.

 

With respect to the Palestinian side, the Trump administration making this previously unthinkable move, may drive home (after the expected brouhaha) the realization that dragging things might actually not be in their best interests. All the more so if the level of involvement and support from Arab countries remains as it is.

 

[Jingthing]

Very long odds on such hopes.

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[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Very long odds on such hopes.

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Indeed. But perhaps useful to consider things from different perspectives and through different lenses. Not putting too much hope into either.

[Jingthing]

 
Indeed. But perhaps useful to consider things from different perspectives and through different lenses. Not putting too much hope into either.

If it was just a matter of doing something/anything different he could have carpet bombed Ramallah.

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[KKr]

10 hours ago, ezzra said:

For decades, world leaders were terrified what of how the Palestinians and the  Arab will response to such move,  they all foresaw unrest, upheaval blood and fire in the streets, now we shall see......

 

first fanning the flames, then put oil on the fire, and now soon the handing out a bucket of water to douse the flames. Well done DD Trump.

A proper Journalist some time ago opined:
A country without enemies is perceived a weak country, and therefore its leadership may be perceived as weak.
Therefore, every leader that wishes to be perceived as powerful must have or create enemies.

The soon to perceive itself great again USofA, alas over the back of people on other continents.

Never mind, that is overseas, and the Army will interfere to create peace.
They were good at that, think WW I and WW II until they supported kicking Palestinians out of their country where religions coexisted for many centuries .!

[KKr]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

Judaism also doesn't allow to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of a Jewish state.

 

Can you provide the source for that statement ?

 

[Jingthing]

Can you provide the source for that statement ?
 

Morch never said that. Doesn't matter if it was true which it isn't. Israel is a nation state and not a purist theocracy.

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[dexterm]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

There is no assurance that the Palestinians would get a more favorable reception, and as pointed out, the USA may very well use veto rights and apply other pressure to block such moves. Regardless, even in case the Palestinians do succeed in some of these efforts - the actual benefits are questionable.

 

As obvious from your posts, the focus offered  is not related to bettering the situation of the Palestinians, resolving the conflict or any such - but more to do with sorting an imaginary score sheet. What would the Palestinians actually gain from "exposing the USA's hypocrisy", or "getting a full UN member status"? That is, concrete gains as opposed to propaganda memes and slogans.

 

Nothing's certain, but defeatism gets you nowhere. 

 

Further exposure of Trump's hypocrisy,  applying for full UN member status, prosecuting Israel for war crimes in the ICC, or protesting against apartheid and illegal occupation all keep the conflict in the spotlight. And in this age of instant social and international media, more of the voting public become aware of the injustice done to Palestinians. And politicians come   ...and go.

 

With this completely unnecessary Jerusalem move, Trump has made it very difficult now for Abbas to sit down to negotiate his ultimate deal....maybe that was Trump's intention all along. If a face saving formula can be found still, I think the Palestinians should sit down to see what is being offered and make the negotiations eventually public. If acceptable, wonderful news. If not, the global community can judge what further actions are appropriate to end the conflict.

 

Your last paragraph is fantasy mind reading baloney.

Edited December 7, 2017 by dexterm

[the guest]

8 hours ago, asiaexpat said:

The UN recognized the unique status of Jerusalem when they declared special status for it. Trump's declaration will endanger not only those in the middle east, but Americans around the world. This is tragic.

Maybe that was the Idea, and give the ammunition for the US to start targeting Muslim countries.

[Jingthing]

Maybe that was the Idea, and give the ammunition for the US to start targeting Muslim countries.

You're assuming trump plans stuff.

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[sanuk711]

Jerusalem Score Update:

.

Moses 1 Muhammad 0

[stevenl]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Trying to find a silver lining in this latest mess, a couple of things come to mind.

 

Any peace deal brokered would entail some serious concessions from both sides. Following this move, the Trump administration may be in a better position to apply pressure on Netanyahu in this regard. So it could be that Trump's statement would prove to be a poisoned chalice. Or from another angle, it may provide Netanyahu with the alibi for accepting USA peace deal terms.

 

With respect to the Palestinian side, the Trump administration making this previously unthinkable move, may drive home (after the expected brouhaha) the realization that dragging things might actually not be in their best interests. All the more so if the level of involvement and support from Arab countries remains as it is.

 

In a better position to ask something from netanyahu? First giving and then asking for concessions is a good idea?

 

Even for you that's a long stretch.

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Indeed. But perhaps useful to consider things from different perspectives and through different lenses. Not putting too much hope into either.

About as useful as speculating how you're going to spend your lottery millions.

[Morch]

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

If it was just a matter of doing something/anything different he could have carpet bombed Ramallah.

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Because this bit of hyperbole you posted is exactly the same?

I'm not saying that it was just "a matter of doing something/anything different".

[Morch]

4 hours ago, KKr said:

Can you provide the source for that statement ?

 

 

Wrong poster :

 

13 hours ago, Thorgal said:

 

Judaism also doesn't allow to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of a Jewish state.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Nonsense.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Morch

[Morch]

3 hours ago, dexterm said:

Nothing's certain, but defeatism gets you nowhere. 

 

Further exposure of Trump's hypocrisy,  applying for full UN member status, prosecuting Israel for war crimes in the ICC, or protesting against apartheid and illegal occupation all keep the conflict in the spotlight. And in this age of instant social and international media, more of the voting public become aware of the injustice done to Palestinians. And politicians come   ...and go.

 

With this completely unnecessary Jerusalem move, Trump has made it very difficult now for Abbas to sit down to negotiate his ultimate deal....maybe that was Trump's intention all along. If a face saving formula can be found still, I think the Palestinians should sit down to see what is being offered and make the negotiations eventually public. If acceptable, wonderful news. If not, the global community can judge what further actions are appropriate to end the conflict.

 

Your last paragraph is fantasy mind reading baloney.

 

This isn't about defeatism, but about making choices that would actually change things. All of the stuff your go on and on about is not going to get the Palestinians neither independence nor the capacity to handle it when it comes.

 

Some posters, yourself included, are avid advocates of applying pressure on Israel in order to change its positions, yet somehow the possibility of the same applied the other way is apparently unthinkable. Whatever.

 

And no, no "fantasy mind reading baloney" at all. What you prescribe is a course of action that implies years, if not decades of ongoing suffering. It actually places a high value on this suffering because of supposed PR value. There is nothing in your posts which addresses the situation between the present and up to that fabled happy ending. Nada. There is nothing in your posts which addresses the Palestinian lacking the leadership, or political institutions, let along unity required to make your fantasies come true.

 

[Morch]

3 hours ago, stevenl said:

In a better position to ask something from netanyahu? First giving and then asking for concessions is a good idea?

 

Even for you that's a long stretch.

 

During Trump's and Netanyahu's press conference in DC, Trump addressed Netanyahu directly and pointed out that both sides will have to make concessions (or words to this effect). Fast forward months later, and Trump said about Netanyahu that he's harder to deal with compared with Abbas (or words to this effect).

 

Getting Netanyahu to accept any concessions will be hard going by itself, even if he wasn't constrained by his right wing coalition and electoral threats posed by his partners. By making this statement, the Trump administration both cements its pro-Israel "credentials" (thus limiting one possible angle of resistance), and has better political leverage to extract concessions in return from Netanyahu.

 

May be worth adding that Netanyahu may face some potentially damaging legal issues. Headlines being replaced with stuff like the OP and related developments is a godsend for him. Hyping up Trump's statement happening on his watch - even better. A common wisdom in Israeli politics is that Left and Center opposition is usually reluctant to challenge right wing Prime Ministers when peace efforts are on the line. 

 

Am I sure this is what it's about or even part of it? No. But it's not really far fetched, nor a long stretch, even if the "even for you" bit had any real meaning. It's just another possible angle. Further, I am skeptical that either way any such hypothetical negotiations plans and tactics will go smoothly, regardless of which side they are applied to.

 

And to make it clear - I still doubt that Trump's own political troubles aren't a major factor in this. Plays well to certain elements of his base, directs attention away from standing issues and investigations. 

 

 

[stevenl]

38 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

This isn't about defeatism, but about making choices that would actually change things. All of the stuff your go on and on about is not going to get the Palestinians neither independence nor the capacity to handle it when it comes.

 

Some posters, yourself included, are avid advocates of applying pressure on Israel in order to change its positions, yet somehow the possibility of the same applied the other way is apparently unthinkable. Whatever.

 

And no, no "fantasy mind reading baloney" at all. What you prescribe is a course of action that implies years, if not decades of ongoing suffering. It actually places a high value on this suffering because of supposed PR value. There is nothing in your posts which addresses the situation between the present and up to that fabled happy ending. Nada. There is nothing in your posts which addresses the Palestinian lacking the leadership, or political institutions, let along unity required to make your fantasies come true.

 

Because the Palestinian leadership is not the topic here. Israel is though.

Edited December 7, 2017 by stevenl

[Morch]

3 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

About as useful as speculating how you're going to spend your lottery millions.

 

Thanks for your in-depth contribution to the topic.

And don't you worry about my lottery earnings, no complaints there.

[stevenl]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

During Trump's and Netanyahu's press conference in DC, Trump addressed Netanyahu directly and pointed out that both sides will have to make concessions (or words to this effect). Fast forward months later, and Trump said about Netanyahu that he's harder to deal with compared with Abbas (or words to this effect).

 

Getting Netanyahu to accept any concessions will be hard going by itself, even if he wasn't constrained by his right wing coalition and electoral threats posed by his partners. By making this statement, the Trump administration both cements its pro-Israel "credentials" (thus limiting one possible angle of resistance), and has better political leverage to extract concessions in return from Netanyahu.

 

May be worth adding that Netanyahu may face some potentially damaging legal issues. Headlines being replaced with stuff like the OP and related developments is a godsend for him. Hyping up Trump's statement happening on his watch - even better. A common wisdom in Israeli politics is that Left and Center opposition is usually reluctant to challenge right wing Prime Ministers when peace efforts are on the line. 

 

Am I sure this is what it's about or even part of it? No. But it's not really far fetched, nor a long stretch, even if the "even for you" bit had any real meaning. It's just another possible angle. Further, I am skeptical that either way any such hypothetical negotiations plans and tactics will go smoothly, regardless of which side they are applied to.

 

And to make it clear - I still doubt that Trump's own political troubles aren't a major factor in this. Plays well to certain elements of his base, directs attention away from standing issues and investigations. 

 

 

Nonsense, first giving away is not the best way to extract concessions later on, no matter how much you try to spin.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Because the Palestinian leadership is not the topic here. Israel is though.

 

How did you come to this conclusion?

[Morch]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

Nonsense, first giving away is not the best way to extract concessions later on, no matter how much you try to spin.

 

I haven't said anything about it being "the best way". Don't know that your credentials as an international negotiator allow you to make such assertions, but eh. As for "spin" - do try to follow up, there is none offered.