Hamas calls for Palestinian uprising against Israel.

[RuamRudy]

15 hours ago, Catoni said:

     Failure to answer my questions:    Noted. 

     Ad Hominem attempt to dismiss:   Noted. 

     Lack of intelligent rebuttal:              Noted.

Questions? Did you seriously consider those to be questions that deserved answers? Calling for rebuttal is a seriously unwarranted assumption of the value of your post, but I will indulge you.

 

21 hours ago, Catoni said:

Israel was attacked and won that land in war. If you attack someone and fail, what right do you have to complain about losing some land if you lose your war ?    

      Israel was nice enough to withdraw from much of it, and return much if it, (Sinai Peninsula etc.)  

War is not about winning and losing land. As I explained to you, the definition of spoils of war is complex and unclear. Here is a link that explores this complexity. As I pointed out to you earlier in this thread - I can shout as loudly as I wish to that my cat is, in fact, a dog. But that does not mean that it will bark or that others will throw it a bone. 

 

21 hours ago, Catoni said:

Do you think the Arabs and Hamas, Hezbolla, PLO would be nice and return some land to Israel  had they captured some of Israel ? 

 

While is clearly a hypothetical 'what if', I don't think it is too hard to suggest how anyone would act were they to recover their homelands from those they consider to be foreign aggressors. 

 

21 hours ago, Catoni said:

Especially when the goal for many of them is to murder every Jewish man, woman and child if they get the chance......the total wiping of Israel from the face of the map. 

Can you quantify the 'many' you refer to ? Is it 1, 100, 1 million? Without anything tangible, it is meaningless hyperbole.  

 

 

 

 

[Catoni]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Questions? Did you seriously consider those to be questions that deserved answers? Calling for rebuttal is a seriously unwarranted assumption of the value of your post, but I will indulge you.

 

War is not about winning and losing land. As I explained to you, the definition of spoils of war is complex and unclear. Here is a link that explores this complexity. As I pointed out to you earlier in this thread - I can shout as loudly as I wish to that my cat is, in fact, a dog. But that does not mean that it will bark or that others will throw it a bone. 

 

While is clearly a hypothetical 'what if', I don't think it is too hard to suggest how anyone would act were they to recover their homelands from those they consider to be foreign aggressors. 

 

Can you quantify the 'many' you refer to ? Is it 1, 100, 1 million? Without anything tangible, it is meaningless hyperbole.  

 

 

 

 

      Wow.... the anology you pose is one of the wost analogies I have seen in some time.  And your ignorance of the the history of "Palestine"  is blinding...   (Palestine...an imaginary country that has never existed historically as a state with a goverment and coinage etc.)    This is fact :   Israel has much, much more historical and factual claim to that land than anyone else.  Whether you like it or not.    Now you can go back to reading your Koran or Works of Lenin.  

Edited December 12, 2017 by Catoni
correction

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Catoni said:

      Wow.... the anology you pose is one of the wost analogies I have seen in some time.  And your ignorance of the the history of "Palestine"  is blinding...   (Palestine...an imaginary country that has never existed historically as a state with a goverment and coinage etc.)    This is fact :   Israel has much, much more historical and factual claim to that land than anyone else.  Whether you like it or not.    Now you can go back to reading your Koran or Works of Lenin.  

It doesn't matter that Jews used to live in Palestine 2 thousand years ago. That confers no legal standing now.

The only legality is what the UN gave when it voted to allow Zionists to live in a clearly defined area in 1948.

If historical aspects made a difference, parts of France would be ruled from London, and the Moors could demand the return of large parts of Spain.

[SheungWan]

On 12/9/2017 at 9:40 PM, Grouse said:

I get so bored hearing about Israel. The Jewish people represent less than 0.1% of the world's population but goodness me they make a lot of noise!

 

Look, I get it. I've read the ancient history (Sharma's History of Jerusalem). I am horrified at what happened to the diaspora in Europe in the first half of the last century (my stomach turns every time I read Schindler's Lift!). BUT the UK gave you a homeland. Please play nicely with your neighbours, treat them well.

Sometimes Grouse, your comments just come over as shallow and borderline junk.

Edited December 12, 2017 by SheungWan

[Morch]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It doesn't matter that Jews used to live in Palestine 2 thousand years ago. That confers no legal standing now.

The only legality is what the UN gave when it voted to allow Zionists to live in a clearly defined area in 1948.

If historical aspects made a difference, parts of France would be ruled from London, and the Moors could demand the return of large parts of Spain.

 

 

It does matter, regardless of the argument over what exactly it confers. If there was no connection to begin with, there would be nothing "allowed" by the UN. Did the UN refer to "Zionists"? Or is this just another way to trying to ignore said connection?

 

As for legalities - did the Arab/Palestinian side accept the terms of the Partition? Does anyone truly expects the very same lines will be applied nowadays?

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by Morch

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Sometimes Grouse, your comments just come over as shallow and borderline junk.

Just sometimes? Thanks, I'll try harder.

 

I'm not joking, at 0.1% of the global population we hear WAY to much wailing. Fine, there are justifiable concerns, but far too much noise.

 

I must say that I have never understood antisemitism ( well some of the extreme orthodox types are a bit overblown) but generally I'm fine with them. I recall there was a great deal of antisemitism in Manchester which I did not understand. Now I am a self confessed anti Muslim bigot, but I am in no way anti - Jewish.

 

Maybe it's because they are very well integrated, the synagogues don't stand out and there is no call to prayers

 

One Jewish man I knew very well headed up UMIST ventures, spinning off high tech companies. Brilliant man who, astonishingly, was a commando during the war but went on to make his fortune in Chemical Engineering

 

Finally, at school, I recall being herded into one of the gyms and shown Holocaust newsreel footage. Affected deeply, I have never brought myself to watch Schindler's List.

 

Sorry for the junk...

[Morch]

 

@Grouse

 

Yes, and this topic is about the Hamas calling for an uprising against Israel. Not quite what you were complaining about.

[sanemax]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

maybe it's because they are very well integrated, the synagogues don't stand out and there is no call to prayers

I think that you have found the solution to World peace there .

If the Muslims switch their call to prayer off at their Mosques, everyone will live happily ever after

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

I think that you have found the solution to World peace there .

If the Muslims switch their call to prayer off at their Mosques, everyone will live happily ever after

One small step

[Scott]

Get back on topic, please.   If you're not interested, you don't have to read.   If you have nothing to say, there is no need to comment.  

[bert bloggs]

15 hours ago, sanemax said:

I think that you have found the solution to World peace there .

If the Muslims switch their call to prayer off at their Mosques, everyone will live happily ever after

Better they call off their call to dominate all other religions .

[Catoni]

20 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It doesn't matter that Jews used to live in Palestine 2 thousand years ago. That confers no legal standing now.

The only legality is what the UN gave when it voted to allow Zionists to live in a clearly defined area in 1948.

If historical aspects made a difference, parts of France would be ruled from London, and the Moors could demand the return of large parts of Spain.

 Point 1.    You wish to discuss legal standings....  Israel still has much more historical AND legal standing to their area, than does a "Palestine" that has never existed at all except in name only.  

 

Point 2.    The Jewish people would have stayed in their borders if they hadn't been attacked by their neighbours.

 

Today's Lesson:   If you're an neighbour of Israel and you want to keep your land, don't try to invade and attack Israel and/or launch rockets and suicide bomb attacks at them. 

 

Israel had captured the Sinai Peninsula, the Golan Heights, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. About 70,000 square kilometers in total. When Israel had completed it's return of the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt, it had withdrawn from about 90% of the disputed territory. After the signing of the Oslo Accords with the Palestinians, Israel has returned about 80% of the Gaza Strip, and 40% of the West Bank.  

   Seeing as how they won those areas in war, it is very generous of Israel to return what they had captured, (you don't see that happen very much in the history of war), especially since Isael continues to be attacked with suicide bombs and rockets targetting innocent civilians, including children.

  I doubt very much that the arabs/palestinians would return land to Israel if they capture any.  What do you think ?

 Question: 

What does the Palestinian and leftist/socialist chant "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be "free"" mean ? ? 

 

   How much of Israel would be left after that chant comes true ? ? 

 

    The "Palestinians" and other Arabs should thank "allah" that they didn't lose a lot more than they did. And they should thank Israel for returning the the Sinai and 80% of Gaza and 40% of the West Bank. 

 

   I wonder, do you think the U.S. return Texas and Arizona and New Mexico and California (won in war) to Mexico ? ? 

  Do you think Canadians and Americans descended from Europeans should return North America to the natives and go back to Europe? 

 

How about we push to get China out of Tibet?  Now there's an idea!

   Just curious...... 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Catoni
Correction

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, bert bloggs said:

Better they call off their call to dominate all other religions .

The usual off topic Islamophobic rant.

[dexterm]

40 minutes ago, Catoni said:

 Point 1.    You wish to discuss legal standings....  Israel still has much more historical AND legal standing to their area, than does a "Palestine" that has never existed at all except in name only.  

 

Point 2.    The Jewish people would have stayed in their borders if they hadn't been attacked by their neighbours.

 

Today's Lesson:   If you're an neighbour of Israel and you want to keep your land, don't try to invade and attack Israel and/or launch rockets and suicide bomb attacks at them. 

 

Israel had captured the Sinai Peninsula, the Golan Heights, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. About 70,000 square kilometers in total. When Israel had completed it's return of the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt, it had withdrawn from about 90% of the disputed territory. After the signing of the Oslo Accords with the Palestinians, Israel has returned about 80% of the Gaza Strip, and 40% of the West Bank.  

   Seeing as how they won those areas in war, it is very generous of Israel to return what they had captured, (you don't see that happen very much in the history of war), especially since Isael continues to be attacked with suicide bombs and rockets targetting innocent civilians, including children.

  I doubt very much that the arabs/palestinians would return land to Israel if they capture any.  What do you think ?

 Question: 

What does the Palestinian and leftist/socialist chant "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be "free"" mean ? ? 

 

   How much of Israel would be left after that chant comes true ? ? 

 

    The "Palestinians" and other Arabs should thank "allah" that they didn't lose a lot more than they did. And they should thank Israel for returning the the Sinai and 80% of Gaza and 40% of the West Bank. 

 

   I wonder, do you think the U.S. return Texas and Arizona and New Mexico and California (won in war) to Mexico ? ? 

  Do you think Canadians and Americans descended from Europeans should return North America to the natives and go back to Europe? 

 

How about we push to get China out of Tibet?  Now there's an idea!

   Just curious...... 

Off topic deflection. What on earth have Texas, Arizona and China, or your phony history got to do with the subject?

[Catoni]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

Off topic deflection. What on earth have Texas, Arizona and China, or your phony history got to do with the subject?

    55555  :)     So you have nothing except "Avoid, Dodge and Deny", and a few previous times...ad hominem. 

   Thank you Dexterm.....

   I think we're finished.   Have a pleasant day.   :)   

Edited December 13, 2017 by Catoni

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, Catoni said:

  

   Seeing as how they won those areas in war, it is very generous of Israel to return what they had captured, (you don't see that happen very much in the history of war), especially since Isael continues to be attacked with suicide bombs and rockets targetting innocent civilians, including children.

 

Hmmmmm. America gave Japan back to the Japanese, the allies gave West Germany back to the Germans, Britain gave Egypt back to the Egyptians. Just a few examples.

Under international law it's illegal to permanently occupy land won in war, hence the settlements in the West Bank are illegal.

[Catoni]

43 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Hmmmmm. America gave Japan back to the Japanese, the allies gave West Germany back to the Germans, Britain gave Egypt back to the Egyptians. Just a few examples.

Under international law it's illegal to permanently occupy land won in war, hence the settlements in the West Bank are illegal.

     It was their choice to return it. (although, Japan, having surrendered, was never invaded.) 

I'm not sure what international law you are looking at.  But the one I am reading says occupation of land is only illegal if taken by war of aggression, as Germany and Japan did, and as China has done to Tibet.

(Give Tibet back and get out of Tibet, China).

     In the case of Israel, Israel took that territory in a War of Defence, AGAINST the aggressors. DIFFERENCE !

      Look it up !  

          "Definition of Aggression – General Assembly resolution 3314 (XXIX)" 

 In any case, Israel was nice and returned almost all of the land.  They did not have to.  Give them credit for doing so.

[observer90210]

Great news for the global arms traders and other Lords of War© !

[RuamRudy]

7 hours ago, Catoni said:

You wish to discuss legal standings....  Israel still has much more historical AND legal standing to their area, than does a "Palestine" that has never existed at all except in name only.

I would be interested in hearing the basis for this statement - care to elaborate?

[Morch]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Hmmmmm. America gave Japan back to the Japanese, the allies gave West Germany back to the Germans, Britain gave Egypt back to the Egyptians. Just a few examples.

Under international law it's illegal to permanently occupy land won in war, hence the settlements in the West Bank are illegal.

 

Who was Israel supposed to "return" the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to after the 1967 war? Jordan? Egypt? The Palestinians? Was there a whole lot by way of willingness to seat down and negotiate? No to recognition, No to negotiation, and No to peace were the sum of the 1967 Arab League summit.

 

The Israeli illegal settlement effort is....well, illegal. I get it some wish to rely on legal interpretations as to the Palestinians not actually asserting ownership, and the Jordanian claim being either illegal or at best, weak. However, even if one was to accept that, the value or future of this effort could still be questioned. In other words, even if it is legal, it plain stupid.

 

 

[bert bloggs]

22 hours ago, dexterm said:

The usual off topic Islamophobic rant.

Not a rant ,but the truth , but "there are none so blind as those who do not want to see"

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, observer90210 said:

Great news for the global arms traders and other Lords of War© !

Follow the money!

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Follow the money!

 

Post slogans!

[Catoni]

20 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I would be interested in hearing the basis for this statement - care to elaborate?

     Well.....I don't have time to teach a history class here outside the college classrooms.  But if you care for private lessons, I charge $50.00 U.S. per hour for an adult.  I'm returning to Thailand in 2018...  let me know if you wish to meet up for a course in History.

     Sorry you have so little historical knowledge.   

   But.. in a nutshell....There is well accepted archeological evidence referring to "Israel" in the Merneptah Stele, which dates to about 1200 BCE.    Historians agree that a kingdom of Israel existed by at least circa 900 BCE.

Finkelstein, Israel; Silberman, Neil Asher (2001). The Bible unearthed : archaeology's new vision of ancient Israel and the origin of its stories (1st Touchstone ed.). New York: Simon & Schuster. ISBN 0-684-86912-8.

  On Sept 3, 1947, the United Nations Special Committee, proposed to replace the British Mandate with an independant arab state, an independant Jewish state, and Jerusalem to be controlled by an international trusteeship organization. 

 "Background Paper No. 47 (ST/DPI/SER.A/47)". United Nations. 20 April 1949. Archived from the original on 3 January 2011. Retrieved 31 July 2007.

  

   29, November, 1947, the U.N. General Assemby adopted Resolution 181, The Plan of Partition with Economic Union, that proposed back on September 3, 1947. 

     The Jewish Agency, the official representative of the Jewish people, was perfectly willing to accept that plan of the international community of the United Nations.

 

    Guess what....  the Arab League, The Arab Higher Commitee of "Palestine" rejected it , and said they would reject any other U.N. plan of separation.  

The arabs and "Palestinians" wanted it all back then.... and they still do today.  

    I say screw 'em ! 

 

   By December 1, 1947, the first attacks by Arab gangs on Jewish targets had begun.   At first, the Jewish people were on the defensive, and in serious trouble, but by early April, 1948 were fighting back with more and more effectiveness.

   On 14, May, 1948....Israel was officially decared and reborn to once again exist.  With land, goverment,  stamps and coinage and everything that defines a state/country/government.  Today it has a parliamentary republican form of government...a democracy..... while the countries surrounding Israel have dictatorships of one kind or another.

  On 15 May, 1948, Syria, Egypt, Transjordan and Iraq invaded the new Israel, in an attempt to destroy the new state of Israel in its infancy. Thus began the 1948 Arab - Israeli War.  With calls to drive the Jews into the sea, military units from Yemen, Morocco, Sudan and Saudi Arabia also joined the war against Israel. 

    We know today who won that war against Israel.

 

   Today.. there are 18 freely elected members of the Israeli government who are arabs, most of them Muslim. 

 

      How many Jews are allowed to be members of Muslim country governments in that part of the world ? ?  

     Now...tell us how "Palestine has more historical and legal claim to the area.  We all wait with bated breath. 

 

    

Edited December 14, 2017 by Catoni
correction

[Ron19]

Two off topic posts have been removed.

[RuamRudy]

19 hours ago, Catoni said:

     Well.....I don't have time to teach a history class here outside the college classrooms.  But if you care for private lessons, I charge $50.00 U.S. per hour for an adult.  I'm returning to Thailand in 2018...  let me know if you wish to meet up for a course in History.

     Sorry you have so little historical knowledge.   

   But.. in a nutshell....There is well accepted archeological evidence referring to "Israel" in the Merneptah Stele, which dates to about 1200 BCE.    Historians agree that a kingdom of Israel existed by at least circa 900 BCE.

Finkelstein, Israel; Silberman, Neil Asher (2001). The Bible unearthed : archaeology's new vision of ancient Israel and the origin of its stories (1st Touchstone ed.). New York: Simon & Schuster. ISBN 0-684-86912-8.

  On Sept 3, 1947, the United Nations Special Committee, proposed to replace the British Mandate with an independant arab state, an independant Jewish state, and Jerusalem to be controlled by an international trusteeship organization. 

 "Background Paper No. 47 (ST/DPI/SER.A/47)". United Nations. 20 April 1949. Archived from the original on 3 January 2011. Retrieved 31 July 2007.

  

   29, November, 1947, the U.N. General Assemby adopted Resolution 181, The Plan of Partition with Economic Union, that proposed back on September 3, 1947. 

     The Jewish Agency, the official representative of the Jewish people, was perfectly willing to accept that plan of the international community of the United Nations.

 

    Guess what....  the Arab League, The Arab Higher Commitee of "Palestine" rejected it , and said they would reject any other U.N. plan of separation.  

The arabs and "Palestinians" wanted it all back then.... and they still do today.  

    I say screw 'em ! 

 

   By December 1, 1947, the first attacks by Arab gangs on Jewish targets had begun.   At first, the Jewish people were on the defensive, and in serious trouble, but by early April, 1948 were fighting back with more and more effectiveness.

   On 14, May, 1948....Israel was officially decared and reborn to once again exist.  With land, goverment,  stamps and coinage and everything that defines a state/country/government.  Today it has a parliamentary republican form of government...a democracy..... while the countries surrounding Israel have dictatorships of one kind or another.

  On 15 May, 1948, Syria, Egypt, Transjordan and Iraq invaded the new Israel, in an attempt to destroy the new state of Israel in its infancy. Thus began the 1948 Arab - Israeli War.  With calls to drive the Jews into the sea, military units from Yemen, Morocco, Sudan and Saudi Arabia also joined the war against Israel. 

    We know today who won that war against Israel.

 

   Today.. there are 18 freely elected members of the Israeli government who are arabs, most of them Muslim. 

 

      How many Jews are allowed to be members of Muslim country governments in that part of the world ? ?  

     Now...tell us how "Palestine has more historical and legal claim to the area.  We all wait with bated breath. 

 

    

Do you really charge $50 for the gift of your sharing of your wisdom? I suggest you pay close attention to the  fall-out of the Trump University and see what happens when one tries to sell a pig in a poke. Based on your posts to date, I would challenge your assertion that you could teach anything of value. 

 

But, in a nutshell,  your argument is that a guilt ridden post WW2 world felt that they should attempt to make amends for their failing the Jews of Europe during the war by giving them someone else's land because (1) the Jews believe in a fable where their particular sky fairy says that the Holy Lands are theirs; (2) the residents of said land organised their affairs in a fashion that was not aligned with Western thinking on land ownership or administration? Anything I missed?

 

If we want to rely on millenia old history and assign land ownership based upon that, then should we not apply that to every nation of the world? Should the non-indigenous Australians, Canadians, Americans et al be forcibly removed from their lands because of some long dead bones? Personally, if I was a Palestinian who could trace his genealogy back generations in the region, I would take a certain degree of umbrage at Europeans who think they can come to my country and decide who was allowed to live where simply because our local administration processes were not to Western standards.  

 

I note that you started your modern history lesson in 1947. Is there any reason you chose that date and not earlier - say 1946? Maybe you could have mentioned the Jewish terrorists such as Begin and how they murdered 91 innocent people in the King David Hotel? Is it not shameful that, today, the terrorist Begin is still considered a hero of Israel?

 

EDIT: I feel I should add the following, as experience has taught me how anyone who dares criticize the state of Israel is often labelled an anti-semite regardless of how scant or non-existent there may be evidence to back up such a smear. 

 

The creation of Israel was, I believe, one of many geographical mistakes made in the post-colonial period after the war. My belief is not based upon religion or ethnicity in any way whatsoever, but simply that no nation or group of nations should be allowed to forcibly evict people with centuries of claim to a region, and hand this land over to another group of people from another part of the world.  Were Jews the residents of Palestine who were evicted to make way for European Muslims, I would feel exactly the same. 

Edited December 15, 2017 by RuamRudy

[dexterm]

19 hours ago, Catoni said:

     Well.....I don't have time to teach a history class here outside the college classrooms.  But if you care for private lessons, I charge $50.00 U.S. per hour for an adult.  I'm returning to Thailand in 2018...  let me know if you wish to meet up for a course in History.

     Sorry you have so little historical knowledge.   

   But.. in a nutshell....There is well accepted archeological evidence referring to "Israel" in the Merneptah Stele, which dates to about 1200 BCE.    Historians agree that a kingdom of Israel existed by at least circa 900 BCE.

Finkelstein, Israel; Silberman, Neil Asher (2001). The Bible unearthed : archaeology's new vision of ancient Israel and the origin of its stories (1st Touchstone ed.). New York: Simon & Schuster. ISBN 0-684-86912-8.

  On Sept 3, 1947, the United Nations Special Committee, proposed to replace the British Mandate with an independant arab state, an independant Jewish state, and Jerusalem to be controlled by an international trusteeship organization. 

 "Background Paper No. 47 (ST/DPI/SER.A/47)". United Nations. 20 April 1949. Archived from the original on 3 January 2011. Retrieved 31 July 2007.

  

   29, November, 1947, the U.N. General Assemby adopted Resolution 181, The Plan of Partition with Economic Union, that proposed back on September 3, 1947. 

     The Jewish Agency, the official representative of the Jewish people, was perfectly willing to accept that plan of the international community of the United Nations.

 

    Guess what....  the Arab League, The Arab Higher Commitee of "Palestine" rejected it , and said they would reject any other U.N. plan of separation.  

The arabs and "Palestinians" wanted it all back then.... and they still do today.  

    I say screw 'em ! 

 

   By December 1, 1947, the first attacks by Arab gangs on Jewish targets had begun.   At first, the Jewish people were on the defensive, and in serious trouble, but by early April, 1948 were fighting back with more and more effectiveness.

   On 14, May, 1948....Israel was officially decared and reborn to once again exist.  With land, goverment,  stamps and coinage and everything that defines a state/country/government.  Today it has a parliamentary republican form of government...a democracy..... while the countries surrounding Israel have dictatorships of one kind or another.

  On 15 May, 1948, Syria, Egypt, Transjordan and Iraq invaded the new Israel, in an attempt to destroy the new state of Israel in its infancy. Thus began the 1948 Arab - Israeli War.  With calls to drive the Jews into the sea, military units from Yemen, Morocco, Sudan and Saudi Arabia also joined the war against Israel. 

    We know today who won that war against Israel.

 

   Today.. there are 18 freely elected members of the Israeli government who are arabs, most of them Muslim. 

 

      How many Jews are allowed to be members of Muslim country governments in that part of the world ? ?  

     Now...tell us how "Palestine has more historical and legal claim to the area.  We all wait with bated breath. 

 

    

Most people know that Judaism has a historical, biblical, and religious affinity with the Holy Land, but that doesn't mean that in every Palestinian household tonight Dad is saying: "Right Mom, kids, pack your bags. We're outa here...I've just read the Merneptah Stele of 1200 BCE"

 

That's how silly your argument sounds to me and Palestinians.

 

Because these Palestinians are real people living in 2017 not 1200 BCE. They don't like being prevented from reaching their family olive groves by segregation walls, or hassled and beaten up at checkpoints by swaggering pimply youths in IDF uniforms who can and have in the blink of an eye shoot them dead if they only think a Palestinian is reaching for a knife rather than his ID papers. Who, as is the case with 4.5 million Palestinians under illegal occupation,  don't like applying often in vain to foreign occupiers of a different religion for a pass to worship at one of their holiest sites or to visit a sick relative in a Jerusalem hospital.

 

That's what is relevant in their daily lives, and it is only the resolution of these issues that will bring permanent peace to the Holy Land, not some inscription on an ancient rock pillar, except of course in the warped logic of some religious fanatic.

[Morch]

22 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Most people know that Judaism has a historical, biblical, and religious affinity with the Holy Land, but that doesn't mean that in every Palestinian household tonight Dad is saying: "Right Mom, kids, pack your bags. We're outa here...I've just read the Merneptah Stele of 1200 BCE"

 

That's how silly your argument sounds to me and Palestinians.

 

Because these Palestinians are real people living in 2017 not 1200 BCE. They don't like being prevented from reaching their family olive groves by segregation walls, or hassled and beaten up at checkpoints by swaggering pimply youths in IDF uniforms who can and have in the blink of an eye shoot them dead if they only think a Palestinian is reaching for a knife rather than his ID papers. Who, as is the case with 4.5 million Palestinians under illegal occupation,  don't like applying often in vain to foreign occupiers of a different religion for a pass to worship at one of their holiest sites or to visit a sick relative in a Jerusalem hospital.

 

That's what is relevant in their daily lives, and it is only the resolution of these issues that will bring permanent peace to the Holy Land, not some inscription on an ancient rock pillar, except of course in the warped logic of some religious fanatic.

 

Milk it.

 

Not even a shred of this faux emotive narrative when Palestinians (or indeed, fellow Muslims) make overreaching claims, arguments and statements based on the basis of faulty historical accounts or religion. Them double standards at it again.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Do you really charge $50 for the gift of your sharing of your wisdom? I suggest you pay close attention to the  fall-out of the Trump University and see what happens when one tries to sell a pig in a poke. Based on your posts to date, I would challenge your assertion that you could teach anything of value. 

 

But, in a nutshell,  your argument is that a guilt ridden post WW2 world felt that they should attempt to make amends for their failing the Jews of Europe during the war by giving them someone else's land because (1) the Jews believe in a fable where their particular sky fairy says that the Holy Lands are theirs; (2) the residents of said land organised their affairs in a fashion that was not aligned with Western thinking on land ownership or administration? Anything I missed?

 

If we want to rely on millenia old history and assign land ownership based upon that, then should we not apply that to every nation of the world? Should the non-indigenous Australians, Canadians, Americans et al be forcibly removed from their lands because of some long dead bones? Personally, if I was a Palestinian who could trace his genealogy back generations in the region, I would take a certain degree of umbrage at Europeans who think they can come to my country and decide who was allowed to live where simply because our local administration processes were not to Western standards.  

 

I note that you started your modern history lesson in 1947. Is there any reason you chose that date and not earlier - say 1946? Maybe you could have mentioned the Jewish terrorists such as Begin and how they murdered 91 innocent people in the King David Hotel? Is it not shameful that, today, the terrorist Begin is still considered a hero of Israel?

 

EDIT: I feel I should add the following, as experience has taught me how anyone who dares criticize the state of Israel is often labelled an anti-semite regardless of how scant or non-existent there may be evidence to back up such a smear. 

 

The creation of Israel was, I believe, one of many geographical mistakes made in the post-colonial period after the war. My belief is not based upon religion or ethnicity in any way whatsoever, but simply that no nation or group of nations should be allowed to forcibly evict people with centuries of claim to a region, and hand this land over to another group of people from another part of the world.  Were Jews the residents of Palestine who were evicted to make way for European Muslims, I would feel exactly the same. 

Good response.

The great mystery is why people of Europe and America thought they actually had a right to dispossess certain landowners in favour of other people with only the claim that they used to live somewhere thousands of years ago. Would anyone now put up with that nonsense?

Thankfully it appears to be the last gasp of colonialism.

The other mystery is why anyone thinks "history" is a valid claim on land occupied by others. If that were a valid claim, I have a right to land in Africa ( as does every person on the planet ) due to ancestral occupation.

[Catoni]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Do you really charge $50 for the gift of your sharing of your wisdom? I suggest you pay close attention to the  fall-out of the Trump University and see what happens when one tries to sell a pig in a poke. Based on your posts to date, I would challenge your assertion that you could teach anything of value. 

 

But, in a nutshell,  your argument is that a guilt ridden post WW2 world felt that they should attempt to make amends for their failing the Jews of Europe during the war by giving them someone else's land because (1) the Jews believe in a fable where their particular sky fairy says that the Holy Lands are theirs; (2) the residents of said land organised their affairs in a fashion that was not aligned with Western thinking on land ownership or administration? Anything I missed?

 

If we want to rely on millenia old history and assign land ownership based upon that, then should we not apply that to every nation of the world? Should the non-indigenous Australians, Canadians, Americans et al be forcibly removed from their lands because of some long dead bones? Personally, if I was a Palestinian who could trace his genealogy back generations in the region, I would take a certain degree of umbrage at Europeans who think they can come to my country and decide who was allowed to live where simply because our local administration processes were not to Western standards.  

 

I note that you started your modern history lesson in 1947. Is there any reason you chose that date and not earlier - say 1946? Maybe you could have mentioned the Jewish terrorists such as Begin and how they murdered 91 innocent people in the King David Hotel? Is it not shameful that, today, the terrorist Begin is still considered a hero of Israel?

 

EDIT: I feel I should add the following, as experience has taught me how anyone who dares criticize the state of Israel is often labelled an anti-semite regardless of how scant or non-existent there may be evidence to back up such a smear. 

 

The creation of Israel was, I believe, one of many geographical mistakes made in the post-colonial period after the war. My belief is not based upon religion or ethnicity in any way whatsoever, but simply that no nation or group of nations should be allowed to forcibly evict people with centuries of claim to a region, and hand this land over to another group of people from another part of the world.  Were Jews the residents of Palestine who were evicted to make way for European Muslims, I would feel exactly the same. 

  Perhaps I missed something. I don't claim to be perfect.  Please enlighten me as to when there was a country or state called "Palestine" that had a recognized government, coinage and currency, and other things that go along with being a state/country.  

    In any case... you say, dismissively say "...guilt ridden post WW2 world..."  in reference to the United Nations decisions and resolutions which the Jewish Agency agreed to, but the arabs and "palestinians" refused...insisting on having it all for themselves. 

     Well... if you don't wish to use United Nations ruling .... then the land belongs to whom ever can take it and hold it.  

   Problem solved....or maybe just beginning. 

  You know, the "palestinians" have this little chant, "From the river, to the sea, Palestine will be "free"".

    Where would Israel be if the "palestinians" make that chant come true?

  How much room for compromise does that chant allow?  

  Are you aware that every offer made to the Palestinians has been refused ? 

   They don't want compromise... . The want it ALL ! ! ! 

    Are you blinded by your leftwing/socialist/anti-Israel ideology ? 

        

Edited December 15, 2017 by Catoni