Rescuing boys from Thailand's northern sex trade

[Paagai]

1 hour ago, simoh1490 said:

A friend used to have a bar, behind D2, he was in business at the time it was built, the bars behind his were nasty. The same cop, if that's what he was (green uniform) used to patrol every evening, an older guy, he knew exactly what was going on and where. 

Not cop, Army - believe they have a connection to the land the bars were built on.   Nuff said.

 

If you think those bars were bad, what went on in the old "Snake Pit" (under the Night Bazaar) in the pre Purachi era was much worse (Read this book if you want the gory details: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Love-Time-Money-Affiliations-Chiangmai/dp/3838306201/).  The Peak closed in 2009, the other bars were in terminal decline, especially after a customer was murdered by some boys he'd met there. Last ones closed in 2014 I believe.

 

Al Jazeera seem to have been "sold a pup" with this story.  Sure Urban Light do some good work and provide a much needed service for which they should be congratulated.   But this was just sensationalised crap targeted at their fund raising base in the US.  Seems the jurno forgot to mention they are a "faith based" organisation.  Content like "sex-trafficking", "rescued" and "Western men sitting in bars with 14-year-old boys on their laps" designed to appeal directly to Christian fundamentalists with anti-gay sentiments. 

 

There is a lot wrong in the more sleazy side of life in Chiang Mai.  Properly researched and approached from the right angle this could have been a valuable article.  Just the fact "drug" was mentioned only once in passing proves the major lack of comprehension of the situation.  A missed opportunity hyping a view of Chiang Mai that is several years out of date.  I'm sure lots of nasty stuff still goes on, but the internet has taken much of it off the streets.

 

It's ironic that their success story involves a bar boy turned tuk-tuk driver, who I'm sure is a great guy and deserves good things and some reqard in life.  In one of the more recent big pedo busts in Chiang Mai the bar boy turned tuk tuk guy was the villain:  http://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news-archive/german-arrested-in-connection-with-luring-young-boys-back-to-his-house-for-sexual-services/

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Given that Night Bazzar is a major tourist centre I think it's pretty safe to say that such things do still go on, the article seems to suggest it does and I can only agree. It is after all prostitution which is not just limited to females selling themselves in the bars of loi kroh.

I think that it doesnt .

I quite often walk past those bars within the night bazaar and the bars customers are mostly Thai guys drinking socially , nearly all the bars within the complex opened and closed withing a year , due to lack of custom , I counted 25 bars which had opened and closed within a year .

[simoh1490]

1 hour ago, sanemax said:

I think that it doesnt .

I quite often walk past those bars within the night bazaar and the bars customers are mostly Thai guys drinking socially , nearly all the bars within the complex opened and closed withing a year , due to lack of custom , I counted 25 bars which had opened and closed within a year .

You must spend a lot of time on Loi Kroh to know those things!

Edited December 12, 2017 by simoh1490

[sanemax]

10 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

You must spend a lot of time on Loi Kroh to know those things!

I do, yes , its where I live and I quite often go to  the NB for a feed , walking along LK , past the night bazaar bars onto food area

Edited December 12, 2017 by sanemax

[simoh1490]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

I do, yes , its where I live

Ah....now I understand.

[sanemax]

6 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Ah....now I understand.

I now hope that you understand why I object to people making false allegations about the area .

The allegation that you made is completely untrue 

[metisdead]

An inflammatory post has been removed. 

[simoh1490]

I was just having a look on the internet to see what articles or data exists on this subject to help cement the true answer and I cam across this:

 

"Around the gay bars behind Chiang Mai’s Night Bazaar, known locally as sleaze alley, young immigrants in Chiang Mai, Thailand find work in the underground sex industry which has become a magnet here for foreign pedophiles. One of the boys interviewed tells how he was coerced into the sex industry at only twelve years old".

 

http://www.gayinchiangmai.com/News/2013/child-sex-abuse-and-trafficking-in-chiang-mai/

 

The article is worth reading, especially since it says, "For those who don’t believe child sex abuse goes on in the paradise city of Chiang Mai, or who like to bury their heads in the sand, this report gives some details." 

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

I was just having a look on the internet to see what articles or data exists on this subject to help cement the true answer and I cam across this:

 

"Around the gay bars behind Chiang Mai’s Night Bazaar, known locally as sleaze alley, young immigrants in Chiang Mai, Thailand find work in the underground sex industry which has become a magnet here for foreign pedophiles. One of the boys interviewed tells how he was coerced into the sex industry at only twelve years old".

 

http://www.gayinchiangmai.com/News/2013/child-sex-abuse-and-trafficking-in-chiang-mai/

 

The article is worth reading, especially since it says, "For those who don’t believe child sex abuse goes on in the paradise city of Chiang Mai, or who like to bury their heads in the sand, this report gives some details." 

Although that report is from 2013 and all the bars in that area have been closed down .

[sanemax]

7 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

I was just having a look on the internet to see what articles or data exists on this subject to help cement the true answer and I cam across this:

 

"Around the gay bars behind Chiang Mai’s Night Bazaar, known locally as sleaze alley, young immigrants in Chiang Mai, Thailand find work in the underground sex industry which has become a magnet here for foreign pedophiles. One of the boys interviewed tells how he was coerced into the sex industry at only twelve years old".

 

I do walk past that area a few times per week on the way to the Kalare food area and I hadnt noticed anything untoward there, so, I went there tonight for a closer look and there are no gay bars there in the area , all the bars on the Foxy lady side of the street have gone, its now a car park and all the bars inside the night bazaar have all closed down and all that is left is a few bars , open bars, facing the street , everything legitimate.

[dorchester]

I have found out , that after further research into the people,organizations and stories that I come to a different conclusion than what is presented here.

[Kadilo]

19 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

I was just having a look on the internet to see what articles or data exists on this subject to help cement the true answer and I cam across this:

 

"Around the gay bars behind Chiang Mai’s Night Bazaar, known locally as sleaze alley, young immigrants in Chiang Mai, Thailand find work in the underground sex industry which has become a magnet here for foreign pedophiles. One of the boys interviewed tells how he was coerced into the sex industry at only twelve years old".

 

http://www.gayinchiangmai.com/News/2013/child-sex-abuse-and-trafficking-in-chiang-mai/

 

The article is worth reading, especially since it says, "For those who don’t believe child sex abuse goes on in the paradise city of Chiang Mai, or who like to bury their heads in the sand, this report gives some details." 

Interesting article. Thanks for sharing. 

[jak2002003]

53 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

Interesting article. Thanks for sharing. 

The article is outdated.

 

These bars are long gone.. close down.  There are no bars, gay, straight, or otherwise there now.  Its a parking lot and some restaurants.  

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, jak2002003 said:

The article is outdated.

 

These bars are long gone.. close down.  There are no bars, gay, straight, or otherwise there now.  Its a parking lot and some restaurants.  

Yes, but the article mentioned in the OP is about what happened several years ago, and the tuk tuk driver is very much still alive.

 

Quote

... Several years ago when Krit was just 16, this picture was very different. His customers were still Western tourists, but they went to him for sex, not tuk-tuk rides. Krit was a victim of Thailand's sex-trafficking trade. For five years he worked in seedy bars and dingy massage joints in Chiang Mai's red light district. ...

 The bars may be long gone but the experience is still very real so no, I would say the article is not outdated. Some may not see the relevance and a few seem to be getting wound up about their favorite bit of their chosen, genteel retirement haven of Chiang Mai being called for harboring something vile. Others dismiss it off hand simply because some buildings and businesses no longer exist. More likely, it has simply moved to where they don't "walk past that area a few times per week."

 

On 12/12/2017 at 11:09 AM, Paagai said:

It's ironic that their success story involves a bar boy turned tuk-tuk driver, who I'm sure is a great guy and deserves good things and some reqard in life.  In one of the more recent big pedo busts in Chiang Mai the bar boy turned tuk tuk guy was the villain:  ...

The irony is that the tuk-tuk "villain" arrested in 2013 was 21 years old at the time. I wouldn't rule out that he too was probably a victim of the same depravity in his younger teens but chose to use his experience a little differently.

 

This being Thailand and all.

Edited December 13, 2017 by NanLaew

[jak2002003]

7 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Yes, but the article mentioned in the OP is about what happened several years ago, and the tuk tuk driver is very much still alive.

 

 The bars may be long gone but the experience is still very real so no, I would say the article is not outdated. Some may not see the relevance and a few seem to be getting wound up about their favorite bit of their chosen, genteel retirement haven of Chiang Mai being called for harboring something vile. Others dismiss it off hand simply because some buildings and businesses no longer exist. More likely, it has simply moved to where they don't "walk past that area a few times per week."

 

The irony is that the tuk-tuk "villain" arrested in 2013 was 21 years old at the time. I wouldn't rule out that he too was probably a victim of the same depravity in his younger teens but chose to use his experience a little differently.

 

This being Thailand and all.

So why is this foundation saying its got lots of abused human trafficked underage sex trade boys in youth centres and appealing for more money and help?

 

Clearly this situation no longer happening in CM.  The bars have gone, the boys have gone, the tuk tuk driver is grown up and has a new life.  His HIV virus has magically vanished.. probably thanks to god and prayer.

 

Teenage boys or girls... 16 - 19.. you think that is underage depravity?  That is not child abuse.  

 

I stated the bars have moved.  There were many of them.. now there are only 2.  They no longer have that reputation.  They are just gay bars, with some male prostitutes hanging about to get customers.  No difference to what the straight bars with bar girls are doing.

 

I think the real purpose of this foundation is to give a few farang people a nice easy life in Thailand, paid for by donations from misled people.  They are also likely a Christian organisation with the real mission to convert 'rescued' Thai boys to Christianity, which is probably more damaging to the boys, Thai culture and society than some teenager hookers making money form some gullible old farang men. 

 

 

[simoh1490]

I find it very hard to believe the whole business just evaporated, more probable that it moved a short distance, a different location(s), took on a different guise. When you think about female adult prostitution in CM and you recall all the different news stories that have appeared over the years, the industry remakes itself, sometimes into restaurants where the waitresses are the main course, sometimes a karaoke, who knows what else. And no Sanamex, I am not suggesting that it remains in your street, just that it is still around, the odds against it being eradicated are slim.  

[sanemax]

4 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

 The bars may be long gone but the experience is still very real so no, I would say the article is not outdated. Some may not see the relevance and a few seem to be getting wound up about their favorite bit of their chosen, genteel retirement haven of Chiang Mai being called for harboring something vile. Others dismiss it off hand simply because some buildings and businesses no longer exist. More likely, it has simply moved to where they don't "walk past that area a few times per week."

 

The article is indeed outdated , it is about what happened in 2009.

As you seem to be referring to me , I did also state that if it does still go on, then its underground, not in public view .

   The article suggests that CM is some kind of pedo haven , with kids on the streets and in bars selling themselves . 

   That is a complete fallacy , it doesnt happen .

If there is an issue with that, why doesnt the article name the bars ?

I do object to articles like this for the reason that pedos will read it and then flock to CM

The OP article should be filled under "Eroticism for Arabs"

 

 

 

[jak2002003]

14 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

I find it very hard to believe the whole business just evaporated, more probable that it moved a short distance, a different location(s), took on a different guise. When you think about female adult prostitution in CM and you recall all the different news stories that have appeared over the years, the industry remakes itself, sometimes into restaurants where the waitresses are the main course, sometimes a karaoke, who knows what else. And no Sanamex, I am not suggesting that it remains in your street, just that it is still around, the odds against it being eradicated are slim.  

Maybe more probable that the business dried up as the police and other authorities made this trade more difficult, and the men that used to come here to abuse boys have been caught, moved on to easier places, died, etc.

 

The bars got less and less busy.  No business... and so closed down.  A few of the old bars reopened in various places to cater for the normal average gay tourists, but the numbers were not enough, so more bars closed.  

 

There are probably now more of the abuse problem in the Thai community where we won't see it.  Again, that is up to authorities to stop.  

[sanemax]

17 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

I find it very hard to believe the whole business just evaporated, more probable that it moved a short distance, a different location(s), took on a different guise. 

Could be that all the kids involved grew up and no one took their place ?

Bars and other establishments do get raided and closed down for having underage drinkers and workers , although even those people are 16 + , and people do get arrested for having underage people in their rooms .

   Yes, it still goes on, but the authorities are on to it

[Paagai]

23 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

I think the real purpose of this foundation is to give a few farang people a nice easy life in Thailand, paid for by donations from misled people.  They are also likely a Christian organisation with the real mission to convert 'rescued' Thai boys to Christianity, which is probably more damaging to the boys, Thai culture and society than some teenager hookers making money form some gullible old farang men. 

 

 

The Urban Light website used to clearly state they were a faith based organisation, as do references to them elsewhere, e.g. in City Life.  Now all references to faith and religion have disappeared from their site.  That alone raises suspicions about real agendas and motives, since I doubt the people involved have all suddenly converted to atheism.

 

I understand many of the boys rescued are Akha [Aside: it would be quite difficult to provide the kind of support Urban Light do to a mixture of different tribal groups in the same space; they just don't mix or integrate.  Indeed, at the old night bazaar gay bars, gang fights along tribal lines were not uncommon].  This is another ironical aspect given the damage (including child abuse) done to the Akha tribe and its villages by Christian Missionaries in previous decades.  Don't take my word for it, Google:  "akha missionaries abuse" and plenty of information comes up.  Is it now a case of the Christians rescuing boys from the christians?

 

Does it still go on? I don't believe there are any gay bars frequented by westerners in Chiang Mai where you can pick up young boys.  At worst there may be some freelance prostitutes who claim to be a couple of years older than they really are, but that is about it.  Most of the boys in the business are so old now they are usually claiming t be quite a few years younger than they really are LOL.

 

However, I suspect there are still places around town where younger boys (or their pimps) hang out.  In two more recent pedo busts in CM, (Klaus Hicker, I mentioned in previous post and Thomas Gary https://www.reuters.com/article/us-thailand-paedophile/thai-police-arrest-man-for-procuring-boys-for-suspected-american-pedophile-idUSKBN0KI16420150109 the underwear fetisher),  a third party procured underage boys and brought them to the offenders homes.  Boys came from typicaly round the Muang Mai market and along the river or internet cafes.  Since both the supply and demand exists I'm sure a lot still goes on, just not visibly in places westerners can visit (what may go on in some of the Thai only places out in the suburbs is anyone's guess as a foreigner would never get past the front door).

 

 

[simoh1490]

23 hours ago, sanemax said:

Could be that all the kids involved grew up and no one took their place ?

Bars and other establishments do get raided and closed down for having underage drinkers and workers , although even those people are 16 + , and people do get arrested for having underage people in their rooms .

   Yes, it still goes on, but the authorities are on to it

Once again, prostitution is the worlds oldest profession and authorities in every country have been trying to manage it, mostly unsuccessfully. To think that the problem has simply evaporated and/ort that nobody is taking the place of the ones who grew up is naive at best.

[scottiejohn]

Bars of all descriptions are closing and not being replaced all round CM so it follows that the "Gay" scene must also reduce.

[simoh1490]

1 hour ago, scottiejohn said:

Bars of all descriptions are closing and not being replaced all round CM so it follows that the "Gay" scene must also reduce.

That's hilarious, so there's a proportional relationship between homosexuality and beer bars in Thailand!

Edited December 14, 2017 by simoh1490

[scottiejohn]

21 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

That's hilarious, so there's a proportional relationship between homosexuality and beer bars in Thailand!

Your response is the hilarious one.  ALL "entertainment" scenes are reducing due to the lack of clientele.

There are fewer tourists/customers therefore the "entertainment" establishments/outlets etc are closing/reducing as a result.

Therefore the number of staff (gay or otherwise) is reducing therefore the number of people prostituting themselves is reducing. 

You did do math at school I assume?

 

[simoh1490]

Just now, scottiejohn said:

Your response is the hilarious one.  ALL "entertainment" scenes are reducing due to the lack of clientele.

There are fewer tourists/customers therefore the "entertainment" establishments/outlets etc are closing/reducing as a result.

Therefore the number of staff (gay or otherwise) is reducing therefore the number of people prostituting themselves is reducing. 

You did do math at school I assume?

 

You are suggesting that homosexuality increases or decreases based on the number of beer bars, the fewer bars, the fewer homosexuals and vica verca.....that's really not the case at all, trust me. Firstly, there is no confirmed link between alcohol sales and sexual orientation, secondly and if there was, if the number of bars decreased, the potential customers for them would simply find other bars in different areas.

[scottiejohn]

If the total number of spending visitors is down then the  total number of any spending people in any one group will  also be down is all that I am saying.  Chinese and other low cash tourist numbers may be up in CM but the spending tourists who support the trades/scenes you are on about are down therefore the supply and demand has reduced. 

Orientations and inclinations don't change because of the above, just the numbers.

From the number of inaccurate posts that you have made previously regarding bars, their type and location I suggest you get off your high horse, open your eyes (and mind) and actually take a look around CM.

 

 

[sanemax]

5 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Once again, prostitution is the worlds oldest profession and authorities in every country have been trying to manage it, mostly unsuccessfully. To think that the problem has simply evaporated and/ort that nobody is taking the place of the ones who grew up is naive at best.

Although we are not talking about simple "prostitution" .

Prostitution between two consenting people of a legal age is a different matter too children being trafficked and forced into it .

    Thailand is a lot more affluent these days and children now have to attend school , that could be a reason why children no longer have to get involved 

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

Bars of all descriptions are closing and not being replaced all round CM so it follows that the "Gay" scene must also reduce.

That's absurd.

First of all, let's not make the mistake of conflating the mainstream legal gay scene with underage sex crimes.

Secondly, brick and mortar gay bars are closing all over the world being replaced with INTERNET sites.

[Paagai]

Factors affecting the decrease in gay bars are not specific to Chiang Mai.  It's the same in many western countries.  There have been big changes in the acceptance of gay people and how they communicate in the last three decades.  As gays became more comfortable coming out, the bars boomed.  Perhaps the boom was around 2005-2010; since then the internet has replaced bars as places for gays to "hook up" and bars have gone into decline.  Especially with younger gays who came out in their teens and are comfortable socialising in straight bars with friends gay and straight.  In fact many avoid the gay ghetto totally.  This is exactly what has been seen e.g. in the UK and some European countries.

 

In Chiang Mai the prostitution factor makes matters worse.  Younger foreign gay visitors want nothing to do with  gay places here where elderly farangs and prostitutes congregate.  You'll much more likely find them at Zoe or the bars of Nimman.  Conversely, prostitution has become much less acceptable in Thai culture as people become more affluent, so money boys look for tricks online rather than risk being seen in a bar and labelled a prostitute.  Chaing Mai's gay bars are now mainly a social scene for older foreigners.

 

But none of this is really relevant to the topic since the child sex scene that was prevalent twenty years ago in Chiang Mai gay bars has moved entirely to other spaces.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Paagai

[Rimmer]

A couple of troll posts have been removed