Bought 12 Cows have limited knowledge

[New Cowboy]

Its been very interesting reading the knowledgeable inputs from experienced persons in this forum.

I write my post to explain my introduction to the cow farming sector and hopefully to gain  a further insight

into my (possible)fool hardy jump into this sector....

Criticism will be accepted, (with humour preferred). Insults will be mulled over and suggestions given consideration,,,,,

but any good advice would be most welcome......  

 

I do not live in Thailand. I visit 2 times a year with my wife (Thai)

I bought 8 rai of land in her village near Buriram to grow  (something) on to help the family there..

It came to my attention that fattening male cows seemed to be financially viable...I did limited research by

visiting cow markets (to buy) and the feed sellers who also buy your cows (by weight)if you buy their feed.

The estimated costs worked out quite well. Basically to buy a young male cow is 20 to 25000 bht (some 18 to 19).

Keep the cows for fattening about 5 months and then sell by weight for 50 to60000 baht.. Cost approx. 10  to 12000 bht

in feed per cow. Plus 10000 bht per month for staff

My wife's father had been working for someone who was fattening  cows  for the last 2 years and seems fairly knowledgeable.

He is a simple farming man mainly growing rice and other crops. He has developed a small but useful knowledge of these male cows

and can handle them well. He is also very careful not to spend too much money on feed. This is one of my concerns,,, maybe the cows will

grow better on a better diet....Any advice on that would be most welcome

 

I have since built a cowshed for about 25 cows on the land I bought. I am growing grass on the remaining 8 rai of land...

We still need to buy feed in but I am considering to buy  further land to grow grass on..

At present we have only12 cows but I planned to get around 25 cows and fatten for 4 to 5months then sell and repeat..

 

We have had the 12 cows since September. Plan to sell them in January... (Pic attached of cows in sept..)

We didn't buy anymore as yet because I heard the market for male cows has gone very slow and selling is now a little difficult to get best prices in the Surin areas..

Although I understand that was due to an overload of  cows in the area 2 months back

 

My cows seem to be around  500 kilos now.....and I understand beef price is 110 to 120bht per kilo....

 

It seems that I would need around 25 cows at a time to make a reasonable level of profit to support and improve infrastructure......but I aim to

turn around say 300 cows per annum.( I have designed my cow shed in a way so as to simply extend as required. )

 

Can anybody advise where I can buy and sell these male cows?. I forget the name of the markets we bought the cows from but they were both near to Surin.

The company buying cows is also near to Surin...

I would like to find some alternative locations to compare with...... I would like to learn more about this business. I would like to exchange information with any

other interested parties. I may be interested to join  with other cattle persons for buying/growing of cattle feed, selling of cows, transportation, and general discussions

to try and understand the  markets and cow care better......

 

I hope my post is of interest to some who can advise, recommend or maybe even work together with in the future..

 

Thanks for reading anyway....

 

Joe .....

 

 

ps.....all of the figures above are factual to the best of the information I have or have been given... I am unsure of actual feed costs per cow at this time, it is estimate only..

I will know better in Jan 2018

 

 

 

 

[farmerjo]

Welcome to the farming forum.

Good luck with your venture.

Try not to load the old fellow up with to much work with them especially down the track.

To cut and carry for 25 cows everyday is hard work.

I saw one of these yesterday at my local machinery dealer.

 

 

[djayz]

I admire your efforts and plans. 

I have zero experience of keeping cattle in Thailand but when I was growing up my old man kept 30 to 35 bullocks at any given time. 

 

Firstly, their eithed bulls or, if they've been castrated, bullocks. 

Secondly, the proper diet is vital to your livestocks growth - you might want to explain that to your FIL. 

Thirdly, if I may be so bold as to make a suggestion; stick to the 12 cattle you cutrently have until you gain more experience and a better understanding of the business, costs involved in getting them ready for the market, etc. You wrote 5 months, this strikes me as being very short - I remember my old man keeping his for up to a year until they were ready/heavy enough to be slaughtered.  

None of the above is intended to insult, poke fun of or deter you in any way. 

One thing I've learned from experience (failure) is to start small, learn, learn and learn and grow slowly but steadily. 

Good luck.

[grollies]

Uk we used to buy at a few weeks old and sell bullocks on at 18 months old, can't remember weights but around 500kg sounds right. Grazed on pasture and over-wintered inside on hay and feed concentrate.

 

Admire you having a go here and committing to the family. As FJ says, spend a bit more to make life a little easier!

 

Good luck.

[kickstart]

Some were you have been given some very wrong imformation  buying cattle at 20 000 baht ,and sell ing them for 50-60 000 each after 5 months ,no way ,buy at 20 000 baht @  110-120 ,baht/kg is about the right price cattal would weight about 200-250  kg ,to sell at 55 000 bart after 5 months  cattle would need to weigh ,at lest 650 kg ,that would be LWG, live weight gain,of 4 kg /day +, which on the diet thay recive ,and the breed, thay will not acheive  it , what breed are they ,is they some Charolais  blood in them ?

You could well do that after a year,I will let you work out the costs.

Now your feed costs are about 80 baht/head/day ,which is a lot ,must be  a 16% pelleted  feed at 10-11 baht /klg ?, looking at the photo the forage is grass ,what grass is it 

Buy the way those bulls are not castrated and could get dangerous, again looking at those photos ,I could put them at no more than 400 kg/live weight, long legs, hollow in the guts, and no back end.

FJ

     That forage harvester is a good bit of kit ,but at about 160 000 baht , plus something to pull it ,like your old Ford ,and a trailer  not cheap .

grollies

            I worked on a farm with the same system ,grass feed .and and in the winter , hay and a home mix , barley based, plus kale and swedes ,which yours turly use to cut /pull, but cattle didn't 'alf do well ,those where the days . 

[EVENKEEL]

Why is that castration is not typical with beef animals here as it is in the US. You know, make them think more about grass than ass.

[Ronaldo777]

You can feed those cattle for fattening for 40 baht a day with very little work . 16 percent protein feed is 240 baht a bag delivered from surin they will need 3 kilos a day per cow . Maize silage is 32 baht for a 18 kilo bag they will need 9 to 10 kilos per day each cow . You could give them some rice straw in the evenings but they wont eat much . Dont forget to worm them out before using good feed into them ivermectin sorts out any parasites and worms or product of your choice  .

 

[Ronaldo777]

Castrastion can be done a farm that raises wagyu cattle for meat have all the bulls done i dont know cost i have never asked  . 

[SiSePuede419]

"You can feed those cattle for fattening for 40 baht a day with very little work ."

 

Think local...

 

My MIL feeds her chickens sticky rice and leftover vegetables.  The eggs taste great.

 

Might be worth trying with the cows.  Sticky rice has twice the calories as regular rice.  You can buy regular rice for as low as B20/kg.  Sticky rice must be very cheap wholesale.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ronaldo777]

Sorry thats the feed its 14 percent protein 240 baht a 30 kilo bag used by many farms i know that fatten cows . 2 kilos a day would be enough if you use the maize silage  3 kilos a day would quicken the process . If you want to cut cost use the 3 kilos protein and grazing . 

[Ronaldo777]

18 percent protein 260 baht a bag i use a 21 percent protein which i pay 290 baht a bag for . The 14 percent protein at 240 baht a bag is designed for what you need . 

[kwak250]

I have to be honest I just had to read this as it is something I would probably do in the future and have much less knowledge than you New cowboy and it makes interesting reading .

Might look at getting a few rai as it can help some family members with getting some extra cash.

Not sure about cows though .crops maybe .

[Jane Dough]

 

Can we help? 

 

Sure, as a poet once said:

 

The cow is of the bovine ilk,

One end is moo, the other milk.

[tryasimight]

8 hours ago, Jane Dough said:

 

Can we help? 

 

Sure, as a poet once said:

 

The cow is of the bovine ilk,

One end is moo, the other milk.

Then you are in for a surprise when you go to milk a bullock. 

One of you will be dissapointed..... And it won't be the bullock. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by tryasimight

[thoongfoned]

in the past the only way "we" made any money from cattle was to have a few females and get them breeding-birthing. maybe more time involved but....

on a side note treat it like a hobby at first (dont expect to smash it on the first try) and then if your father inlaw can make any profit it will be good, if not just a learning curve.

all the best.

the barn looks good and strong.

[CLW]

Advice about the concentrate / protein feed. Don't feed to much of the daily ratio to your cows otherwise they can develop stomach problems (acidosis)
There are some handy calculators available on the web where you can put together your daily feed ratio, depending what feed material you have available

[New Cowboy]

16 hours ago, farmerjo said:

Welcome to the farming forum.

Good luck with your venture.

Try not to load the old fellow up with to much work with them especially down the track.

To cut and carry for 25 cows everyday is hard work.

I saw one of these yesterday at my local machinery dealer.

 

 

Hi Farmer Jo...  Thanks for the advice and photograph.... My FiL suggested we bought a grass cutter a few months back... We bought one at about 40000bht which seems to be ok for now at this level.. I will look into this when I next get back to Thailand...... The only downside to a grass cutter seems to be that numerous neighbours want to use it also... My FiL is a very helpful man around the village and finds it hard to refuse......... If we get a bigger one neighbours will probably turn up with truck loads of grass    lol

[New Cowboy]

16 hours ago, djayz said:

I admire your efforts and plans. 

I have zero experience of keeping cattle in Thailand but when I was growing up my old man kept 30 to 35 bullocks at any given time. 

 

Firstly, their eithed bulls or, if they've been castrated, bullocks. 

Secondly, the proper diet is vital to your livestocks growth - you might want to explain that to your FIL. 

Thirdly, if I may be so bold as to make a suggestion; stick to the 12 cattle you cutrently have until you gain more experience and a better understanding of the business, costs involved in getting them ready for the market, etc. You wrote 5 months, this strikes me as being very short - I remember my old man keeping his for up to a year until they were ready/heavy enough to be slaughtered.  

None of the above is intended to insult, poke fun of or deter you in any way. 

One thing I've learned from experience (failure) is to start small, learn, learn and learn and grow slowly but steadily. 

Good luck.

 

16 hours ago, djayz said:

 

Hi Djayz...   Great advice there...  I like to get moving fast when I do anything but farming in any format needs a slower pace.... My family members looking after the cows say the same as you.. " Lets go slowly "...   I think I will heed the advice and not push for too much growth until we are all more experienced..... Thankyou..

[djayz]

18 minutes ago, New Cowboy said:

Hi Farmer Jo...  Thanks for the advice and photograph.... My FiL suggested we bought a grass cutter a few months back... We bought one at about 40000bht which seems to be ok for now at this level.. I will look into this when I next get back to Thailand...... The only downside to a grass cutter seems to be that numerous neighbours want to use it also... My FiL is a very helpful man around the village and finds it hard to refuse......... If we get a bigger one neighbours will probably turn up with truck loads of grass    lol

Charge the neighbours for the use of the cutter. Either they pay money (for feed) or barter (some of their grass as fodder for your livestock). Problem solved!

[grollies]

There was a similar thread by Ian1980 with some useful info here

 

 

 

[kickstart]

Finding a vet that can castrate cattle in Thailand easier said than done,I use to do calves at 5-7 days old ,in the uk using, basically thick rubber bands, same as on lambs , easy 2 minute job .

I have done them over here using  a burdizzo , which is , basically a large pair of pliers, that crush the ,blood vessels and the spermatic cord , known as bloodless castration ,but the Thai way is to  wait untill they are 1 year old plus, cast the animal .tie the legs up , so the animal is immobile, not easy and hard work . and needs 2-3 assistants .

Your average Thai vet is not good at handling cattle , most are scared of cattle especially  beef cattle which ,are difficult to handle ,and can kick hard ,so they do not get done ,if you do find one hang on to him.

Ronado 777

                     Those prices on 18-21% protein feed are good ,I would say the ME, engage levals would be low ,but for beef cattle that is good enough ,I am paying 350 baht/50kg bags for a 14% concentrate.

Your cattle do not eat a lot of rice straw,that is ok ,just a  bit gives the rumen some long fiber, helps digestion, if,if where you are you can find some  bicarbonate of soda ,Pong-Foo ,in Thai ,mix  a spoonful  in the feed , that would help as well ,keeps the rumen ph balanced .

With your system ,you said you have littal work ,why the OP is paying 10000 baht a moth in labour  for 12 head of cattle ,ok he is not they a lot ,not a lot of choice and it is family labour that sounds a lot . 120 000 baht/year makes a big hole in the profit margin ,as he expands he will need more labour , more expense .

SiSePuede419

                        Chickens and cattle have a compleatly diffrent digestive system ,skicky  rice would work with chickens , that would be cooked ,with cattle if it was cooked that would be 20kg/day ?,you would need a big basket to steam   that ,cattle could not digest sticky  rice , would cause  havack with they digestive system ,raw rice would pass thugh the digestive system, un -digested ,the enagey and protine levals would be ok  ground rice has been feed to cattle , sticky rice just not a sutable feed ,cattle feed is about 7-9 baht /kg,see above, rice  is 20 baht/kg, Do not give up your day job .

[kickstart]

1 hour ago, thoongfoned said:

in the past the only way "we" made any money from cattle was to have a few females and get them breeding-birthing. maybe more time involved but....

on a side note treat it like a hobby at first (dont expect to smash it on the first try) and then if your father inlaw can make any profit it fwill be good, if not just a learning curve.

all the best.

the barn looks good and strong.

3

That is what we do  we have a few beef cows, let them rear the calves , and sell them at about 1 year old , we do ok .useing the right breed  helps ,gives an easy calving , better than trying to rear beef, feeding would be the same as for beef cattle.

Apart from the fact, I like to see a few calves bouncing about the place.

[New Cowboy]

15 hours ago, kickstart said:

Some were you have been given some very wrong imformation  buying cattle at 20 000 baht ,and sell ing them for 50-60 000 each after 5 months ,no way ,buy at 20 000 baht @  110-120 ,baht/kg is about the right price cattal would weight about 200-250  kg ,to sell at 55 000 bart after 5 months  cattle would need to weigh ,at lest 650 kg ,that would be LWG, live weight gain,of 4 kg /day +, which on the diet thay recive ,and the breed, thay will not acheive  it , what breed are they ,is they some Charolais  blood in them ?

You could well do that after a year,I will let you work out the costs.

Now your feed costs are about 80 baht/head/day ,which is a lot ,must be  a 16% pelleted  feed at 10-11 baht /klg ?, looking at the photo the forage is grass ,what grass is it 

Buy the way those bulls are not castrated and could get dangerous, again looking at those photos ,I could put them at no more than 400 kg/live weight, long legs, hollow in the guts, and no back end.

FJ

     That forage harvester is a good bit of kit ,but at about 160 000 baht , plus something to pull it ,like your old Ford ,and a trailer  not cheap .

grollies

            I worked on a farm with the same system ,grass feed .and and in the winter , hay and a home mix , barley based, plus kale and swedes ,which yours turly use to cut /pull, but cattle didn't 'alf do well ,those where the days . 

Hi Kickstart....Thanks for taking the time to give your valued advice....  I would like to point out that the pic of cows is from September when we first bought. They are much bigger now.

Just to recalculate I think 500kg cows will work out to about 55000bht at 110 per kilo.....  As you rightly say, my estimated feed costs per head are around 80 bht per day. I will be investigating further the other feed advice kindly given to me by other members...

[New Cowboy]

Hi to you all...

I would like to reply to everyone individually but am a little short of time at present...

 

Thank you all for the invaluable advice given.. It is very much appreciated... I will follow what I can..

It is a big learning curve but very interesting for me....

 

I look forward to anymore advice you can share.....

 

Wishing you a Happy Christmas and Happy Farming in 2018

 

Joe.............

[JayBird]

The only thing I know about cows is what I've learned from watching all creatures great and small.   So.... Do you need to factor in:

 

Medical care if cow gets sick?

Loss if cow died?

Do you need to slaughter if there is a local breakout of foot and mouth, etc?

(The above could wipe out years of profits)

 

and does food prices fluctuate?

 

Did you also consider premium cows? Good breed, organic, free range, etc. Perhaps more profit?

 

 

 

[grollies]

17 hours ago, kickstart said:

grollies

            I worked on a farm with the same system ,grass feed .and and in the winter , hay and a home mix , barley based, plus kale and swedes ,which yours turly use to cut /pull, but cattle didn't 'alf do well ,those where the days . 

Well mate you certainly got me mulling over my childhood memories. I'd forgotten about the homemade mix, barley, some kind of treacle/molasses and swede. Chopping swedes.....

 

Kept 10 bullocks, mucking out after a winter indoors, the muck about a foot thick. Dad eventually bought a buck rake for the tractor but before that it was all by hand.

 

Best time? Hay making and chucking it all up into the barns, bloody hell, we were fit, what happened?!

[djayz]

19 minutes ago, grollies said:

Well mate you certainly got me mulling over my childhood memories. I'd forgotten about the homemade mix, barley, some kind of treacle/molasses and swede. Chopping swedes.....

 

Kept 10 bullocks, mucking out after a winter indoors, the muck about a foot thick. Dad eventually bought a buck rake for the tractor but before that it was all by hand.

 

Best time? Hay making and chucking it all up into the barns, bloody hell, we were fit, what happened?!

The thread in general brings back fond memories for me too. I particularly enjoyed the tea breaks when out making cocks of hay in the field. I'd sit back against one, in the shade, and dunk my biscuits into my tea - my faithful little dog Spot always beside me begging for a biscuit. 

[CLW]

Welcome to the farming forum.
Good luck with your venture.
Try not to load the old fellow up with to much work with them especially down the track.
To cut and carry for 25 cows everyday is hard work.
I saw one of these yesterday at my local machinery dealer.
 
 

I saw some machines from this company, Celikel from Turkey, at a fair last weekend. Made a solid impression. They also had a feed mixer wagon to make TMR.
Anyone has an idea since how many cows it makes sense to invest in such a mixer?
If I can remember correctly the smallest size had 5m^3 volume

[kickstart]

4 hours ago, JayBird said:

The only thing I know about cows is what I've learned from watching all creatures great and small.   So.... Do you need to factor in:

 

Medical care if cow gets sick?

Loss if cow died?

Do you need to slaughter if there is a local breakout of foot and mouth, etc?

(The above could wipe out years of profits)

 

and does food prices fluctuate?

 

Did you also consider premium cows? Good breed, organic, free range, etc. Perhaps more profit?

 

 

 

This is Thailand , I live in a big dairy area,and  and we have had our fair share  of F/M over the years, here they do not slaughter like we do , but inject  the animals to cure  the disease ,normally Pen and Strep  antibiotic , and an analgesic, for 4-7 days until they get better , mortality  on larger animals is not high , young calves can be 90% mortality .

 It is the cost of lost production is the problem, most farmers are more worried about, not being able to send there  milk  than the F/M  disease ,for up to 10-14 days ,farmers can not send milk ,with antibiotics in ,if thay get caught ,thay will get fined 30 day prodution ,enough to finish some small producers , beef farms are hit too some cattle not eating for a few day can not get up ,thay end up going for the chop, agine weight loss , that takes some putting back on is they biggest problem .

They are vets in most areas , normale  the Thai Department of Livestock development, around here , we have a few independent, self-employed vets as well .

For the past 2 years feed prices have been stable ,in the past  prices have fluctuated rice straw is the one that goes up and down ,one bale 18-40 baht depending on the season.

I wish for an organic market, Thai dairy farmer friend of mine  has some  organic dairy cows ,he is strugling ,got riped off by one milk buyer ,and trying to find some quality organic feed ,not easy ,he feeds some organic rice bran ,and brewers grains ,and nappier grass,he gets 25 baht/kg/milk as oposed to 18-19 baht/kg  for ordenry milk ,he needs the extra  for his more expencive feed ,it is a very small market ,an organic beef farm could  done a lot easyer ,but it finding a market to sell the beef ,not easy .

[farmerjo]

How markets have changed,i remember the days if i sent cows to the local market and didn't sell,i was thinking how i was going to pay the transport bill back to the farm.