Bought 12 Cows have limited knowledge

[joedee]

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 3:08 AM, Stanier said:

.newcowboy hi, I just left Bansai, we have a house there and got a buffalo also. Where are you based there?

Sent from my BLA-L29 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Hi Stanier...  I have just arrived back to Ban Sai.....not been here since last May.... Cows and land are looking good.

Lots of grass growing on 8 rai..... My wifes family house is opposite the temple across the main road behind the health centre. The land and the cows are behind the temple about  half a km... When are you back?..

[New Cowboy]

 

Hi Everyone and thanks again for your interest and advice so far.....

 

I have been reading it all but not had much time to respond. However, I am back in Thai farming territory now and taking in all that has been going on since I left last May.

The cows seem big, clean and content though I think they could all do with a Saturday night out with a few heifers...

There's a whole lot of testosterone in that cow shed. and they're big and active.. 

The 8 rai of land around looks good also with lots of grass growing and a lot of hard work put in...

 

As mentioned in my earlier posts the first cows were bought in August 2017. We bought 12 within about 8 to10 weeks.(in my absence)...

I suggested we start selling them at the end of Jan and replacing them with younger cows ready to fatten again.

As we all know buying in Thailand(or anywhere for that matter) is easy,,, very easy......

Selling,,, well,,, that's a different story....

I was told by the company that sells us  food,,  "If you buy our food we guarantee to buy your cows"......and YES that is still true,,,,,,, BUT, they didn't fill me in on the small print.....

When we said we wanted to sell our cows they informed they had 2 many at that time and we would have to wait in a queue to sell and they would only take 2 at a time...  So, what to do?, We joined the queue. They then bought 2 cows at just over 500kg each for 100 bht per kilo..in March.........(then more small print I missed, )they said they would pay into a bank account after 30 days........ (which they did,)...

In the mean time we are still buying they're food and waiting in a queue to sell more....Then they wait until they sell and get paid before they pay us....Wow,  What a great business they have.... But, Hey that's the way business works...(theirs anyway lol)

 

Now my on the ground research leads me to understand that, at just the time I got into the cow business last August was just about the same time as the market was seriously slowing down. Prices were getting lower(110bht per kilo then)and demand was dropping...

Not that I knew.  It was all very positive at the time...... But someone has to be last in eh?..

 

So, I have come back to the village, taken stock of the situation, run over the balance sheet, the in’s and out’s and the nitty gritty.... Discussed with The Head Cowboy lol (FiL) and some old die hard cow farmers here who have been doing it for 25 years+  They tell me I am already working with the best company in the area who buys cows...... and who are decent and honest... and  Yes, maybe that’s true,,    But ,I feel we cannot stay in the hands of 1 company who dictates all of the circumstances surrounding our cow business.... Otherwise we are just working for them when they want us to...

 

During the last days I have asked my family and friends to get every connection they have and call anyone and everyone they know who knows anyone who buys cows.....

 

We have had a few visits since and mainly people have come to look, taken pictures and  headed off saying they will be back in touch.. 1guy originally offered 500,000bht for all 10. We asked for 520000bht. He then got back to us with an offer of 85bht per kilo for the biggest 7 cows..

 

We are now asking him 90bht per kilo for all or 85bht for 6 and we keep the 4 biggest cows. Also our queue number is approaching in the next 14 days or so with the cow food company. Then we can sell 2 to 4 cows(up to company) at 100bht per kilo.. so it seems to make more sense to take the better price with the company in 2 weeks or so...(for 2 to 4 cows)

We think(hope) the biggest cows are 550 to 580kg so its a difference of maybe 35000bht on 4 cows waiting for the company to buy.

 

Each cow currently cost approx 2500 bht per month to feed which means we need them to put on 25kg per month to break even(@100 bht -kg)..... I cannot see that happening as they are pretty big already... So we need to sell them as soon as poss or we will be losing daily...

 

Anyhow ,in a nutshell the difficulties for us seem to be.

 

A)    There are too many cows on the market for sale and we don't have connection to sell at will.

 

     I do not speak Thai so have difficulty getting full and precise information through my translator(the Missus). So many people are helpful with information but Too many things are missed and not enough questions asked accurately. And then more questions to the answers given are not asked...

C)     Our feeding costs are too high and the FiL as hard as he works physically to make things run well just does’nt  have the business acumen to keep searching for better/improved ways of feeding..(despite the feeding info offered on this thread)

D)    We are keeping the cows too long(feeding too much) due to not knowing where to sell when we want to

E)     We cannot weigh our cows(in house) so cannot assess accurate weights to judge when is best to sell.....

 

  

For some final information on this post I can share that the cows cost just about 300,000bht for 12 and the feed costs are approx 220000 bht to date. We have taken in 103000 bht for 2 cows till date. So we need to get 417000 bht for 10cows to break even without labour cost of F & MiL. and a few other  incidentals..

We are hoping we have upwards of 5200kg of cows in the shed.

 

It's Not quite like the figures I projected at the outset and much closer to the figures suggested by the experienced members posting/replying on this thread... You just can’t beat experience eh???

 

I have attached pics of some cows and also the feed we have been using..

 

Thank you for reading and I hope to be posting about a positive sale price in the near future...

 

I am also exploring the possibility of Thai Wagyu/Kobe fattening program and maybe some breeding..but that is for later posts.... 

 

Bye for now and Thanks

 

Joe (New Cowboy)

 

PS.... If anyone knows where we can try to offer them for sale please do let me know.  I am considering contacting slaughter houses in Thailand to see if I can sell them directly to cut out the middleman.  Any info on that will also be appreciated..

 

 

(I'm not sure if I posted this to the right place correctly but hopefully it's on this thread somewhere)

[New Cowboy]

4 minutes ago, New Cowboy said:

 

Hi Everyone and thanks again for your interest and advice so far.....

 

I have been reading it all but not had much time to respond. However, I am back in Thai farming territory now and taking in all that has been going on since I left last May.

The cows seem big, clean and content though I think they could all do with a Saturday night out with a few heifers...

There's a whole lot of testosterone in that cow shed. and they're big and active.. 

The 8 rai of land around looks good also with lots of grass growing and a lot of hard work put in...

 

As mentioned in my earlier posts the first cows were bought in August 2017. We bought 12 within about 8 to10 weeks.(in my absence)...

I suggested we start selling them at the end of Jan and replacing them with younger cows ready to fatten again.

As we all know buying in Thailand(or anywhere for that matter) is easy,,, very easy......

Selling,,, well,,, that's a different story....

I was told by the company that sells us  food,,  "If you buy our food we guarantee to buy your cows"......and YES that is still true,,,,,,, BUT, they didn't fill me in on the small print.....

When we said we wanted to sell our cows they informed they had 2 many at that time and we would have to wait in a queue to sell and they would only take 2 at a time...  So, what to do?, We joined the queue. They then bought 2 cows at just over 500kg each for 100 bht per kilo..in March.........(then more small print I missed, )they said they would pay into a bank account after 30 days........ (which they did,)...

In the mean time we are still buying they're food and waiting in a queue to sell more....Then they wait until they sell and get paid before they pay us....Wow,  What a great business they have.... But, Hey that's the way business works...(theirs anyway lol)

 

Now my on the ground research leads me to understand that, at just the time I got into the cow business last August was just about the same time as the market was seriously slowing down. Prices were getting lower(110bht per kilo then)and demand was dropping...

Not that I knew.  It was all very positive at the time...... But someone has to be last in eh?..

 

So, I have come back to the village, taken stock of the situation, run over the balance sheet, the in’s and out’s and the nitty gritty.... Discussed with The Head Cowboy lol (FiL) and some old die hard cow farmers here who have been doing it for 25 years+  They tell me I am already working with the best company in the area who buys cows...... and who are decent and honest... and  Yes, maybe that’s true,,    But ,I feel we cannot stay in the hands of 1 company who dictates all of the circumstances surrounding our cow business.... Otherwise we are just working for them when they want us to...

 

During the last days I have asked my family and friends to get every connection they have and call anyone and everyone they know who knows anyone who buys cows.....

 

We have had a few visits since and mainly people have come to look, taken pictures and  headed off saying they will be back in touch.. 1guy originally offered 500,000bht for all 10. We asked for 520000bht. He then got back to us with an offer of 85bht per kilo for the biggest 7 cows..

 

We are now asking him 90bht per kilo for all or 85bht for 6 and we keep the 4 biggest cows. Also our queue number is approaching in the next 14 days or so with the cow food company. Then we can sell 2 to 4 cows(up to company) at 100bht per kilo.. so it seems to make more sense to take the better price with the company in 2 weeks or so...(for 2 to 4 cows)

We think(hope) the biggest cows are 550 to 580kg so its a difference of maybe 35000bht on 4 cows waiting for the company to buy.

 

Each cow currently cost approx 2500 bht per month to feed which means we need them to put on 25kg per month to break even(@100 bht -kg)..... I cannot see that happening as they are pretty big already... So we need to sell them as soon as poss or we will be losing daily...

 

Anyhow ,in a nutshell the difficulties for us seem to be.

 

A)    There are too many cows on the market for sale and we don't have connection to sell at will.

 

     I do not speak Thai so have difficulty getting full and precise information through my translator(the Missus). So many people are helpful with information but Too many things are missed and not enough questions asked accurately. And then more questions to the answers given are not asked...

C)     Our feeding costs are too high and the FiL as hard as he works physically to make things run well just does’nt  have the business acumen to keep searching for better/improved ways of feeding..(despite the feeding info offered on this thread)

D)    We are keeping the cows too long(feeding too much) due to not knowing where to sell when we want to

E)     We cannot weigh our cows(in house) so cannot assess accurate weights to judge when is best to sell.....

 

  

For some final information on this post I can share that the cows cost just about 300,000bht for 12 and the feed costs are approx 220000 bht to date. We have taken in 103000 bht for 2 cows till date. So we need to get 417000 bht for 10cows to break even without labour cost of F & MiL. and a few other  incidentals..

We are hoping we have upwards of 5200kg of cows in the shed.

 

It's Not quite like the figures I projected at the outset and much closer to the figures suggested by the experienced members posting/replying on this thread... You just can’t beat experience eh???

 

I have attached pics of some cows and also the feed we have been using..

 

Thank you for reading and I hope to be posting about a positive sale price in the near future...

 

I am also exploring the possibility of Thai Wagyu/Kobe fattening program and maybe some breeding..but that is for later posts.... 

 

Bye for now and Thanks

 

Joe (New Cowboy)

 

PS.... If anyone knows where we can try to offer them for sale please do let me know.  I am considering contacting slaughter houses in Thailand to see if I can sell them directly to cut out the middleman.  Any info on that will also be appreciated..

 

 

(I'm not sure if I posted this to the right place correctly but hopefully it's on this thread somewhere)

This pic is of the first cows back in September 2017

[farmerjo]

Excellent post.

 

[observer90210]

Start milking those cows before you get milked by god knows who....

 

All the best in your venture and wish you full sucess !

[joedee]

30 minutes ago, observer90210 said:

Start milking those cows before you get milked by god knows who....

 

All the best in your venture and wish you full sucess !

It might be troublesome trying to get milk out of 550kg Bulls but thanks for the suggestion.

Maybe you could pop round and give it a go for us.( I'll video from a safe distance lol)

At the moment we are getting 100bht for 3 bags of cow dung.... That seems a bit safer.....

[kickstart]

You have some nice cattle they, are good cattle because of the inputs and a big part is the   breed, being Charolais x Brahman .if they were Indo Brazil x or Thai Native x they would be a very different looking cattle

complied with the original photos from last September they look a very different bunch oh cattle, selling at 85 -90 baht/kg is low for some Charolais x cattle.

Looking at the photos I would say they would weigh no more than 500-520 kg ,Google cattle weigh belts ,there  are youtube videos, they weigh belts that go around the animal's shoulder, not 100 % accurate but a guide, available in Thailand, Giss Marketing in Bangkok should have them ,but your biggest problem is not having a cattle race to restrain the animal while try to use the weight belt .                                                                                                                                           As for feeding that 12% protein is ok , feeding with fresh grass, or say maize silage, without looking at the whole diet I could not say if the 12% protein is enough ,I know if you feed enough they will put on weight ,as I said your feed costs of 80 baht /head/day is high ,maybe a 14 or16%  protein feed  could be better more expensive ,but you could feed less. but looking at these cattle they are looking well, I know, as they say, If it 'ant broke do not fix it , your diet works, as I said 80baht/day is a lot, plus labour costs . costs need to come down .     

[thoongfoned]

cows are looking good.... are you not tempted to get the family/friends to butcher one and sell in bits/kg? around here when people do like this they sell in baht amounts, 500, 1000 ect....

[New Cowboy]

I have been to the cow food company again today to pick up some food...

I drove an hour there only to find out it is closed on Thursday's....

However, that turned out to be lucky because we knocked on the house door around the 

back and got to meet the manager and his family.... We got stocked up with some food and 

had a chat about cows and about the delay in buying... and all other stuff about fattening etc.

He gave some really helpful advice and suggestions for newbies like us. (I will share it in my next post

as I am rushing today as I am off on an early drive to Chiang Mai tomorrow.)

Apparently my Head Cowboy(Fil) has been waiting for a call from them when really he should be 

chasing them up to remind them about our cows. We have probably missed 2 queue turns by not pressing.

Now this Saturday or Sunday he will call us to take 2 or possibly 4(if we are lucky). I asked if we could expedite 

matters somehow so that we can maybe move our cows on a bit faster in the future... He did'nt seem to get the drift 

of my subtle offer and didn't have any ideas how to get my queue moving faster... Maybe next time after sharing a few beers with him I can explore further .

Or maybe he is just a good manager and (subtlety) doesn't let Falangs push in front of Thais.(in which case every credit to him)

Anyway, we have made direct contact and we will keep in touch with him.

The company does seem good and well managed. I would like to find another 1 or 2 companies like them..

Any knowledge on that will be appreciated....

 

I will let you all know how we get on with selling  our cows to the company this weekend and I trust they are very heavy.

I'm hoping KickStart is 30 or so KG off in his estimate from the pics I showed.. I'm Guessing(hoping) at about 550kg++...

But I wouldn't bet against him.  Experience wins every time

 

I am not around to help but a truck is on standby for delivery......

 

Have a good weekend..

 

Joe 

 

 

[New Cowboy]

6 hours ago, thoongfoned said:

cows are looking good.... are you not tempted to get the family/friends to butcher one and sell in bits/kg? around here when people do like this they sell in baht amounts, 500, 1000 ect....

Thank you compliment and  your idea Thoongfoned... Yes, I have thought about butchering to make more profit and cut out some middlemen... I am researching that option but preferably through slaughterhouses rather than on a market slab.

These cows are 500kg plus so I am expecting 50000 bht plus. I feel local butchering may not be the best way to go at this time... Besides, I am very squeamish personally and would hate to see or arrange for my cows (that I have been visiting, talking too and patting on the head recently) to be killed and chopped up locally . I would prefer to be 1 step removed.

Keep my head in the sand sort of thing.....

 

 

[kickstart]

This subject of butchering and selling yourself ha come up on here before, I have thought about myself, but the wife was well against it.

Most Thai's do not know cuts of beef ,my wife will ask for a cut "that is easy to eat and not chewy ", she will pay just a bit more ,but most beef is sold at one price, as one member said  'you will sell all the nice bit and at the end of the day you just have just  the scrag ends, only fit for beefburgers, where are you going to sell 20-30kg of beefburgers in Thailand ".

Also with a beef animals you have the KO% Killing out percent, that is the saleable meat from one animal, with beef in the UK and the USA  it is 56% KO%, here in Thailand with the breeds ,it will be more like 50%,I would say the op's cattle would be nearer 56%.,the other 44% being the head ,hide and bones ,and offal. 

So one of the op's animals weighing 530kg you will have about 290-300kg of meat to sell .take off killing and dressing costs, hire of a pitch on the local market, you would still make more than selling it on the hoof, (and you get to have beefburgers for tea.)

[New Cowboy]

15 minutes ago, kickstart said:

This subject of butchering and selling yourself ha come up on here before, I have thought about myself, but the wife was well against it.

Most Thai's do not know cuts of beef ,my wife will ask for a cut "that is easy to eat and not chewy ", she will pay just a bit more ,but most beef is sold at one price, as one member said  'you will sell all the nice bit and at the end of the day you just have just  the scrag ends, only fit for beefburgers, where are you going to sell 20-30kg of beefburgers in Thailand ".

Also with a beef animals you have the KO% Killing out percent, that is the saleable meat from one animal, with beef in the UK and the USA  it is 56% KO%, here in Thailand with the breeds ,it will be more like 50%,I would say the op's cattle would be nearer 56%.,the other 44% being the head ,hide and bones ,and offal. 

So one of the op's animals weighing 530kg you will have about 290-300kg of meat to sell .take off killing and dressing costs, hire of a pitch on the local market, you would still make more than selling it on the hoof, (and you get to have beefburgers for tea.)

Hi Kickstart... Your info at those percentages  makes some real sense to consider butchering.

Lets take worst case scenario of 500kg cow. Lose 50% KO leaving 250kg sellable beef.

Sell that beef locally at a lowest rate say 250bht per kg and you net 62500bht for a 500kg cow..

That's 12500 bht better than on the hoof..

Take another practical look at say a 550kg cow getting a sellable 300kg of beef at current local rate of 280kg per kg = 84000 bht against on the hoof of 55000 bht...... It seems to be a no brainer ....... but as with all things COW research is needed..

 

Working on it..

[CLW]

This subject of butchering and selling yourself ha come up on here before, I have thought about myself, but the wife was well against it.
Most Thai's do not know cuts of beef ,my wife will ask for a cut "that is easy to eat and not chewy ", she will pay just a bit more ,but most beef is sold at one price, as one member said  'you will sell all the nice bit and at the end of the day you just have just  the scrag ends, only fit for beefburgers, where are you going to sell 20-30kg of beefburgers in Thailand ".
Also with a beef animals you have the KO% Killing out percent, that is the saleable meat from one animal, with beef in the UK and the USA  it is 56% KO%, here in Thailand with the breeds ,it will be more like 50%,I would say the op's cattle would be nearer 56%.,the other 44% being the head ,hide and bones ,and offal. 
So one of the op's animals weighing 530kg you will have about 290-300kg of meat to sell .take off killing and dressing costs, hire of a pitch on the local market, you would still make more than selling it on the hoof, (and you get to have beefburgers for tea.)

A own cattle slaughter house is one of my dreams. Unfortunately a setup for a cow slaughter house is the most expensive for all meat animal. First due to the size it needs to be bigger and higher. Second, if you want to do it professional, you need a refrigerated room for storing and ripening your cuts.

Another thing regarding New Coyboys selling intentions. Are there no local slaughter houses in Thailand where you basically just pop in (with previous appointment) and sell your cow?
Maybe it doesn't exist probably due to the low demand of beef in Thailand...

[farmerjo]

@NewCowboy,

Is this beef being sold locally,commercially(like makro) or across the borders by the food company.

 

[kickstart]

Hi FJ

          I asked  New Cowboy last year what his slaughterhouse  does with the beef, it sounds if they almost work on a quota system only taking cattle a few at a time, and paying directly in to the bank, so it must be a commercial company?.

Around here when we or anyone else sells cattle, it is the folding stuff , cash only.

Does this company have a name if so I would say this being Thailand they would have a facebook page?                             CLW

        They are local slauterhouse,  we have one near us ,you can take an animal in and get it slaughtered, they alsoI take in casualties   ie downer cows , cows that can not get up for a reason, a lot are bad calvings ,I think our local market has its beef slaughtered they, a bit farther a field is a bigger slaughterhouse they kill most of the local cull dairy cows, local cattle dealers take a pick up load down, most will not have an appintment ,so I have been told a lot go from they for  meat balls .

[VocalNeal]

Thread title reminded me of this

 

SOCIALISM
You have 2 cows.
You give one to your neighbour.

COMMUNISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both and gives you some milk.

FASCISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both and sells you some milk.

NAZISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both and shoots you.

BUREAUCRATISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both, shoots one, milks the other, and then throws the milk away.

TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM
You have two cows.
You sell one and buy a bull.
Your herd multiplies, and the economy grows.
You sell them and retire on the income.

SURREALISM
You have two giraffes.
The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

AN AMERICAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows.
Later, you hire a consultant to analyze why the cow has dropped dead.

ROYAL BANK OF SCOTLAND VENTURE CAPITALISM
You have two cows.
You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with an associated general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax exemption for five cows.
The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to a Cayman Island Company secretly owned by the majority shareholder who sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company.
The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on one more.
You sell one cow to buy a new president of the United States, leaving you with nine cows.
No balance sheet provided with the release.
The public then buys your bull.

A FRENCH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You go on strike, organize a riot, and block the roads, because you want three cows.

A JAPANESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk.
You then create a clever cow cartoon image called ‘Cowkimon’ and market it worldwide.

A GERMAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You re-engineer them so they live for 100 years, eat once a month, and milk themselves.

AN ITALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows, but you don’t know where they are.
You decide to have lunch.

A RUSSIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You count them and learn you have five cows.
You count them again and learn you have 42 cows.
You count them again and learn you have 2 cows.
You stop counting cows and open another bottle of vodka.

A SWISS CORPORATION
You have 5000 cows. None of them belong to you.
You charge the owners for storing them.

A CHINESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You have 300 people milking them.
You claim that you have full employment, and high bovine productivity.
You arrest the newsman who reported the real situation.

AN INDIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You worship them.

A BRITISH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
Both are mad.

AN IRAQI CORPORATION
Everyone thinks you have lots of cows.
You tell them that you have none.
No-one believes you, so they bomb the crap out of you and invade your country.
You still have no cows, but at least you are now a Democracy.

AN AUSTRALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
Business seems pretty good.
You close the office and go for a few beers to celebrate.

A NEW ZEALAND CORPORATION
You have two cows.
The one on the left looks very attractive

[grollies]

3 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Thread title reminded me of this

 

SOCIALISM
You have 2 cows.
You give one to your neighbour.

COMMUNISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both and gives you some milk.

FASCISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both and sells you some milk.

NAZISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both and shoots you.

BUREAUCRATISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both, shoots one, milks the other, and then throws the milk away.

TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM
You have two cows.
You sell one and buy a bull.
Your herd multiplies, and the economy grows.
You sell them and retire on the income.

SURREALISM
You have two giraffes.
The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

AN AMERICAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows.
Later, you hire a consultant to analyze why the cow has dropped dead.

ROYAL BANK OF SCOTLAND VENTURE CAPITALISM
You have two cows.
You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with an associated general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax exemption for five cows.
The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to a Cayman Island Company secretly owned by the majority shareholder who sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company.
The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on one more.
You sell one cow to buy a new president of the United States, leaving you with nine cows.
No balance sheet provided with the release.
The public then buys your bull.

A FRENCH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You go on strike, organize a riot, and block the roads, because you want three cows.

A JAPANESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk.
You then create a clever cow cartoon image called ‘Cowkimon’ and market it worldwide.

A GERMAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You re-engineer them so they live for 100 years, eat once a month, and milk themselves.

AN ITALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows, but you don’t know where they are.
You decide to have lunch.

A RUSSIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You count them and learn you have five cows.
You count them again and learn you have 42 cows.
You count them again and learn you have 2 cows.
You stop counting cows and open another bottle of vodka.

A SWISS CORPORATION
You have 5000 cows. None of them belong to you.
You charge the owners for storing them.

A CHINESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You have 300 people milking them.
You claim that you have full employment, and high bovine productivity.
You arrest the newsman who reported the real situation.

AN INDIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You worship them.

A BRITISH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
Both are mad.

AN IRAQI CORPORATION
Everyone thinks you have lots of cows.
You tell them that you have none.
No-one believes you, so they bomb the crap out of you and invade your country.
You still have no cows, but at least you are now a Democracy.

AN AUSTRALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
Business seems pretty good.
You close the office and go for a few beers to celebrate.

A NEW ZEALAND CORPORATION
You have two cows.
The one on the left looks very attractive

That's pretty funny, thanks for the post.

[New Cowboy]

One week back we sold 2 cows to the feed company. The weight for both was 1190kg so we were happy.

Not sure if one was over 600kg or both at 595kg..  Much heavier than expected and 5 of our other cows look around the same weight or more.. I guess the FiL is feeding them well... Sold at 100bht per kilo which seems to be the highest rate locally....

We have had more cow buyers round to view our cows. Been offered 85 bht per kg and also 370000 bht for the 8 remaining... (5 at say 570kg+ and 3 at say 450kg +)..... we asked 90 per kg or 440000bht for the lot... No Deal yet.

We are still feeding them up ,lets see what happens...

We are in the queue for the next 2 to the company in the coming week or so. We can hold on to get 100bht per kilo.

 

From advice gained from the cow feed company, we realise we should have castrated the bulls when we got them.

Apparently they would have put more weight on faster and be a little bit less feisty to handle. The company doesn't like to take too many non castrated bulls as they can often fight with other cows and be difficult to handle. Hence they will not take more than 2 from us at a time..

I asked the feed company about using a higher protein feed. The manager explained that they prefer fat cows rather than strong ones for the purpose they use them....(Never really got a full answer on that)...

I asked how we could improve what we are doing. He said carry on the way we are but maybe vary a little in terms of cow size we buy to fatten and also get a few heifers in also to breed...

Also we need to register how many cows we have to sell to him and they will keep us active in the queuing system so we don't miss turns like we have been doing..

Our cows would have all been sold by now if we had kept on the ball with the queue system..(planning ahead etc)

 

As it stands now on the finances  I have an output of 520000bht and an Input of 222000bht with 8 cows(appx4200kg) still in the shed costing around 20000 bht per month to feed.... If the feed cost is off set against weight gain on selling price I would like to think a gross profit of over 100000 bht will be made when all cows are sold in the next 90 days or so.

 

In a nut shell that is less than half of my projection and has taken double the time......Back to the drawing board now....

 

I am looking to replace these 12 cows with much younger cows, maybe 15 or 20, buying at around 10 to 13000bht. Get them castrated when practical. Get them all registered  with the feed company. Maybe get a few young heifers as well.

Stick to the Charolaise/Brahman mix but would also like to get 2 or 3 wagyu type in and explore that option....

 

On the feed side of things we need to get costs down.... The feed company we use seems as cheap if not better than the options. We grow 6 rai of Napier grass ourselves and looking to add another 4 rai soon. We will buy a big stock of rice straw just after rice is cultivated(when it is at cheapest price)..But I need to look more closely at the advice offered on this thread and to monitor the feed to weight gain(not sure how to do that yet without scales on site). Food cost is the crucial factor at our level and with us selling live....

 

My ongoing research will lead to exploring slaughterhouse setup and costs.

I feel that is the best way to go to actually make a good business with cows.

 Selling cut beef, professionally butchered, aged and looking/tasting like beef...

If we get the beef right it can easily fetch 300bht + per kg...

 

Yesterday I was in Kap Choeng and went to the new beef shop (opposite hospital)set up by Surin wholesalers.

The lady was very helpful with information but her knowledge was minimal of what she was selling. She told us that it was Angus from Charolaise/Brahman cows ( ???????) something to do with Australia she said... Same as picture on her sign board.... It was 280bht per kg for tenderloin... we bought, some plus another undistiguishable cut below

 

The colour looked like pork or veal..... Took it home for dinner......the tenderloin was a bit tough and tasteless and the other was not actually edible for me. I would need to still be chewing now.... I thought wow people are buying this at 280 bht per kg.

My family members said they thought it was local cow or roadside as I call it.. Anyway, I would not buy it again even at half that price...... I think selling good cuts of decent beef is definitely a good market opportunity...

 

I was in Bangkok last week for a day. I saw a sign saying Australian Wagyu beef for sale in a supermarket 3000bht per kilo. I went and bought a 500bht piece and cooked it at home... It was fabulous but not as good as I thought it would be.

I also saw 4 or 5 steak houses along sukhumvit road selling 1500 bht +  steaks on plates.....

I know Bangkok is not representative of the whole Thailand but I think there is a growing market for good beef here...and it hasn't really been tapped yet..

..

More research is needed.......

 

Moving forward I will be trying to find a way to get my beef from the cow shed to the end user in a more profitable way..

 

Quality always sells.....

 

As always your comments and suggestions are welcomed...

 

Best regards

 

Joe

[kickstart]

   Good to see the 2 bulls you sold making a good weight, I asked before what the buyer does with the cattle still not certain, as you said he prefers fat to strong cattle, in Europe, you would lose money on sending over fat cattle, you would be graded low, the KO% would be lower.                                                                                                                                                                                As for your feeding all the weight gain, or most of it, is from expensive concentrate, Nappier grass, is ok but they are a lot better grasses available  Nappier at 45 days when well fertilized will have a protein of about 9%.

Mulato II has a protein of 10-12% and if grown and managed well cattle can put on 0.4-0.6 kg/live weight/day on this grass alone (these are USA  figures,I would say 0.4 kg/lw/day here in Thailand ), but it likes a free draining land.

Have a word with Michal Hare at Ubon Forage seeds, he is our grass expert, and he will advise he also has a Guinea grass  seed again 10% protein plus. 

Thais like Nappier easy to grow, just stick it in the ground  like cassasava  and it grows, easy to harvest ,grass seed must have a good seed bed, not always easy to do with Thai equipment,then drilling the seed ,Thai drills are for corn 30 inch row spacings ,grass  needs 7-12 inch rowspacings ,you need to drill back down the center of the rows, and finding some grass seed plates for the drill ,grass seed need smaller holed plates than corn, not easy but worth it in the end.and another part of the equation, when you are not they will F in L be able to manage it all.

Thinkk about it grass is cheap to grow, cattle have an FCR, feed convertion  rate/raio of 6-7.5 to 1, that is you feed 6-7.5kg of feed and cattle will put on 1 kg of weight ,USA feed lots will do it in 6 to 1 , here in Thailand would be nearer 7.5-8 to 1 ,low enagey feeds and poor roughage  is the cause of low FCR's . as has been said before  your cattle have been putting on about .75 kg/weight/day, if you can feed cheep grass and get 50% of weight gain on grass alone that will help your profit margin .

What does not help is feeding rice straw, you must pay 22-25 baht/bale? with a feed at 3-4% protein vertically no energy and vitamins and minerals , were I am  in a big dairying area rice straw is the main form of forage   on most farms ,cows will not give any amount of milk ,can cause indigestion problems ,and most of all causes an infertility problem and beef cattle will not put on any weight ,so not a good feed, but 1 kg/day   does help with rumen digestion .

As for castrating cattle, this has come up before ,the problem is finding someone to do the job , as I said I live in a big  dairying area, with a good few vets ,only one could do the job ,and I know he will not do them  too much work and Thai's are not good at handling cattle ,they would take one look at a 14 month old bull and just say no way .

I have done them using Berdizzos, which are basically large pliers that just crush the spermatic cords, called bloodless castration ,these  where 18-month-old cattle, it took 4 Thai's under my directions to cast and tie they legs up before  I could start work took about all morning to do ,I think it was 6 animals, in the UK I use to use rubber rings on week-old calves ,a 2 minute job .

You could just buy in heifers, they will flatten just a bit quicker than bulls, like Kwie Bar does on his wife's beef system, but finding Charolais x heifers at a good price will not be easy, most heifers here  in Thailand are kept back for breeding ,hence more expensive animals .especially Charaials x stock.  

You can get hormone implant, a small tablet is injected in the base of the ear, it will quieten down bulls make them less rampant/ aggressive, and they shoud put on more weight, being more content than before, my local shop sells the implants ,but it is finding gun to inject the implant not easy not seen them for a good few years .known as Yar-, Nip-Hoo in Thai. the manager at your feed company should be able to help you.

A local farmer who rears a bulls says you can use the homonrn that is used on cats and dogs to stop them coming on heat, that has the same effect, but I would do a lot of research before going down that road.

As I said before you will need some form of handling race to catch and hold the cattle, and then you could get the weight belt and check the weight of the cattle.

As for buying younger and cheaper cattle, you will have to work out if the cost of feed, needed for the extra weight gain from buying smaller stock, is more or less than buying in bigger more expensive stock, that will need less feed, to reach your target weight.

But if you had some good well-managed grass would make the equation a lot easier. 

[khwaibah]

On 5/29/2018 at 2:19 PM, New Cowboy said:

One week back we sold 2 cows to the feed company. The weight for both was 1190kg so we were happy.

Not sure if one was over 600kg or both at 595kg..  Much heavier than expected and 5 of our other cows look around the same weight or more.. I guess the FiL is feeding them well... Sold at 100bht per kilo which seems to be the highest rate locally....

We have had more cow buyers round to view our cows. Been offered 85 bht per kg and also 370000 bht for the 8 remaining... (5 at say 570kg+ and 3 at say 450kg +)..... we asked 90 per kg or 440000bht for the lot... No Deal yet.

We are still feeding them up ,lets see what happens...

We are in the queue for the next 2 to the company in the coming week or so. We can hold on to get 100bht per kilo.

 

From advice gained from the cow feed company, we realise we should have castrated the bulls when we got them.

Apparently they would have put more weight on faster and be a little bit less feisty to handle. The company doesn't like to take too many non castrated bulls as they can often fight with other cows and be difficult to handle. Hence they will not take more than 2 from us at a time..

I asked the feed company about using a higher protein feed. The manager explained that they prefer fat cows rather than strong ones for the purpose they use them....(Never really got a full answer on that)...

I asked how we could improve what we are doing. He said carry on the way we are but maybe vary a little in terms of cow size we buy to fatten and also get a few heifers in also to breed...

Also we need to register how many cows we have to sell to him and they will keep us active in the queuing system so we don't miss turns like we have been doing..

Our cows would have all been sold by now if we had kept on the ball with the queue system..(planning ahead etc)

 

As it stands now on the finances  I have an output of 520000bht and an Input of 222000bht with 8 cows(appx4200kg) still in the shed costing around 20000 bht per month to feed.... If the feed cost is off set against weight gain on selling price I would like to think a gross profit of over 100000 bht will be made when all cows are sold in the next 90 days or so.

 

In a nut shell that is less than half of my projection and has taken double the time......Back to the drawing board now....

 

I am looking to replace these 12 cows with much younger cows, maybe 15 or 20, buying at around 10 to 13000bht. Get them castrated when practical. Get them all registered  with the feed company. Maybe get a few young heifers as well.

Stick to the Charolaise/Brahman mix but would also like to get 2 or 3 wagyu type in and explore that option....

 

On the feed side of things we need to get costs down.... The feed company we use seems as cheap if not better than the options. We grow 6 rai of Napier grass ourselves and looking to add another 4 rai soon. We will buy a big stock of rice straw just after rice is cultivated(when it is at cheapest price)..But I need to look more closely at the advice offered on this thread and to monitor the feed to weight gain(not sure how to do that yet without scales on site). Food cost is the crucial factor at our level and with us selling live....

 

My ongoing research will lead to exploring slaughterhouse setup and costs.

I feel that is the best way to go to actually make a good business with cows.

 Selling cut beef, professionally butchered, aged and looking/tasting like beef...

If we get the beef right it can easily fetch 300bht + per kg...

 

Yesterday I was in Kap Choeng and went to the new beef shop (opposite hospital)set up by Surin wholesalers.

The lady was very helpful with information but her knowledge was minimal of what she was selling. She told us that it was Angus from Charolaise/Brahman cows ( ???????) something to do with Australia she said... Same as picture on her sign board.... It was 280bht per kg for tenderloin... we bought, some plus another undistiguishable cut below

 

The colour looked like pork or veal..... Took it home for dinner......the tenderloin was a bit tough and tasteless and the other was not actually edible for me. I would need to still be chewing now.... I thought wow people are buying this at 280 bht per kg.

My family members said they thought it was local cow or roadside as I call it.. Anyway, I would not buy it again even at half that price...... I think selling good cuts of decent beef is definitely a good market opportunity...

 

I was in Bangkok last week for a day. I saw a sign saying Australian Wagyu beef for sale in a supermarket 3000bht per kilo. I went and bought a 500bht piece and cooked it at home... It was fabulous but not as good as I thought it would be.

I also saw 4 or 5 steak houses along sukhumvit road selling 1500 bht +  steaks on plates.....

I know Bangkok is not representative of the whole Thailand but I think there is a growing market for good beef here...and it hasn't really been tapped yet..

..

More research is needed.......

 

Moving forward I will be trying to find a way to get my beef from the cow shed to the end user in a more profitable way..

 

Quality always sells.....

 

As always your comments and suggestions are welcomed...

 

Best regards

 

Joe

 

Great to meet you and your family. Thanks for the visit. Very interesting discussion was had and wishing you the best in your venture. It takes time to learn the in-out of anything in Thailand saying that I shall pickup over on my thread.

Take care Joe and hope to to keep in contact.

Edited May 30, 2018 by khwaibah

[New Cowboy]

8 hours ago, kickstart said:

   Good to see the 2 bulls you sold making a good weight, I asked before what the buyer does with the cattle still not certain, as you said he prefers fat to strong cattle, in Europe, you would lose money on sending over fat cattle, you would be graded low, the KO% would be lower.                                                                                                                                                                                As for your feeding all the weight gain, or most of it, is from expensive concentrate, Nappier grass, is ok but they are a lot better grasses available  Nappier at 45 days when well fertilized will have a protein of about 9%.

Mulato II has a protein of 10-12% and if grown and managed well cattle can put on 0.4-0.6 kg/live weight/day on this grass alone (these are USA  figures,I would say 0.4 kg/lw/day here in Thailand ), but it likes a free draining land.

Have a word with Michal Hare at Ubon Forage seeds, he is our grass expert, and he will advise he also has a Guinea grass  seed again 10% protein plus. 

Thais like Nappier easy to grow, just stick it in the ground  like cassasava  and it grows, easy to harvest ,grass seed must have a good seed bed, not always easy to do with Thai equipment,then drilling the seed ,Thai drills are for corn 30 inch row spacings ,grass  needs 7-12 inch rowspacings ,you need to drill back down the center of the rows, and finding some grass seed plates for the drill ,grass seed need smaller holed plates than corn, not easy but worth it in the end.and another part of the equation, when you are not they will F in L be able to manage it all.

Thinkk about it grass is cheap to grow, cattle have an FCR, feed convertion  rate/raio of 6-7.5 to 1, that is you feed 6-7.5kg of feed and cattle will put on 1 kg of weight ,USA feed lots will do it in 6 to 1 , here in Thailand would be nearer 7.5-8 to 1 ,low enagey feeds and poor roughage  is the cause of low FCR's . as has been said before  your cattle have been putting on about .75 kg/weight/day, if you can feed cheep grass and get 50% of weight gain on grass alone that will help your profit margin .

What does not help is feeding rice straw, you must pay 22-25 baht/bale? with a feed at 3-4% protein vertically no energy and vitamins and minerals , were I am  in a big dairying area rice straw is the main form of forage   on most farms ,cows will not give any amount of milk ,can cause indigestion problems ,and most of all causes an infertility problem and beef cattle will not put on any weight ,so not a good feed, but 1 kg/day   does help with rumen digestion .

As for castrating cattle, this has come up before ,the problem is finding someone to do the job , as I said I live in a big  dairying area, with a good few vets ,only one could do the job ,and I know he will not do them  too much work and Thai's are not good at handling cattle ,they would take one look at a 14 month old bull and just say no way .

I have done them using Berdizzos, which are basically large pliers that just crush the spermatic cords, called bloodless castration ,these  where 18-month-old cattle, it took 4 Thai's under my directions to cast and tie they legs up before  I could start work took about all morning to do ,I think it was 6 animals, in the UK I use to use rubber rings on week-old calves ,a 2 minute job .

You could just buy in heifers, they will flatten just a bit quicker than bulls, like Kwie Bar does on his wife's beef system, but finding Charolais x heifers at a good price will not be easy, most heifers here  in Thailand are kept back for breeding ,hence more expensive animals .especially Charaials x stock.  

You can get hormone implant, a small tablet is injected in the base of the ear, it will quieten down bulls make them less rampant/ aggressive, and they shoud put on more weight, being more content than before, my local shop sells the implants ,but it is finding gun to inject the implant not easy not seen them for a good few years .known as Yar-, Nip-Hoo in Thai. the manager at your feed company should be able to help you.

A local farmer who rears a bulls says you can use the homonrn that is used on cats and dogs to stop them coming on heat, that has the same effect, but I would do a lot of research before going down that road.

As I said before you will need some form of handling race to catch and hold the cattle, and then you could get the weight belt and check the weight of the cattle.

As for buying younger and cheaper cattle, you will have to work out if the cost of feed, needed for the extra weight gain from buying smaller stock, is more or less than buying in bigger more expensive stock, that will need less feed, to reach your target weight.

But if you had some good well-managed grass would make the equation a lot easier. 

Hi Kickstart.....Thank you for all of the great information given above.....it makes it a hell of a lot easier for my research when you have given me such good guidelines to start from... Very much appreciated....

Just to respond to some of  the points I would like to relay some info I have been given as recently as even today..

 

Castration:- Went to meet a cow dealer/farmer today... He castrates his own cows at his own yard.. He didn't seem to think it was much of an issue. Said he had done 3 last month and 1 bull he has for sale can be castrated pre delivery if required.  In addition the feed company we use said bring the bulls to them, they will castrate and register/tag them.350bht per bull... It would seem not to problematic to do(as long as I don't have to help lol)... Our regular vet says he has misplaced his machine/tools for doing it but can arrange if required.... So I think the options are nearby to do it.

With the 5 bulls we have touching upto 600kg I think it is best to let them go into the food chain with nuts attached.. That seems a bit of a dangerous a mission to take on....

 

Grass Feed...Yes Nappier does seem to be the most popular choice and is seen growing nearly everywhere locally.

They start it off by using stalks not seeds. The cost is about 1 bht each.. I was introduced to sweet Israel grass the other day.  The FiL liked it,,, that was until he found out it was 2.5bht per stalk....the longer term business side of things doesn't inspire the FiL too much.. He wants to stick to what he knows unless something is cheaper then he will try it.

I need to work harder to get over to him the benefits of trying other options.. Planting from seed at this time is not an option. I would need to be here to oversee that and adjust as necessary....Maybe in the future.... For now I will try to find out what other stalks we can get to plant and then to insist to FiL on experimenting....Poss the sweet Israel after I research the benefits of using it..

STRAW,,, Well I really didn't know anything about that...based on your info it seems pretty much a waste of money  though I see most cow barns stocked up and feeding with it.....I guess they see it as a cheap food...My wife just said it's good for the cows who are still hungry.......... I remember my father telling me to fill up on potatoes if your still hungry,, it's maybe the same sort of idea for the cows eh!.. But yes, I don't want to waste money if straw is of no benefit...

 

Protein Feed(from the company)Currently the FiL is feeding 45kg per day to 8 bulls... I have no idea if that is sensible/practical, right or wrong.. I am just trusting in his experience.... 3 bowls each in the morning and 3 bowls each in the evening which works out at 5.6kg which is about 50bht per day each bull... (That seems quite a lot really..)Not sure the weight of the Nappier grass he gives and it's hard to gauge a cost on homegrown at this time. Plus some straw.

(I am estimating a cost of around 83bht per bull per day at this time)...obviously it was cheaper in the earlier days when they were much smaller....

We have had the bulls for approximately 270 days and they have gained an estimated 380kgs so that is roughly 1.4kg weight gain daily..... which seems to be roughly inline with the info you have given.....

My protein feed costs seem to be the highest daily cost so I need to find a cheaper equivalent source of protein.

I am working on it and through the advice you have given...

 

Younger cheaper cattle....I went to view some today..... 2 angus, 1 Charolaise/brahman 1 Wagyu (allegedley).

 

Is this a WAGYU???

 

 

Is this an  ANGUS  ?????  (see the Charolaise in the background,, quite a bit taller)

 

 

All about 1 year old, all about 120kgs, all priced at 14500bht(opening price if I took all) delivered...(wagyu alone 16-17k)

I was considering offering 50000bht for all but FiL said lets buy from market, not the middleman...

I did a quick reckoning that we bought 2 year old bulls last year at around 220/250kgs for 19 to 25000bht each.

Which means we would need to put  around 120kgs of weight on them in 12months....A rough estimate of feed per month per cow would be say 1000bht.. Equals 12000bht +buy cost =26500 1 year along...plus all the work and poss vet bills.... So at this time it seems better to stick to 2 year olds at around 240kg and not fatten for free for1year unless I can pick some young ones at 10000bht each and try it out.... Of course it all depends on how well we can fatten them and how long it takes.... Maybe we will get 1 or 2 up to experiment.....

 

 

Once again, Thanks for your advice Kickstart,,,, it won't be wasted..

 

Best regards

 

Joe

 

 

 

 

 

[New Cowboy]

1 hour ago, khwaibah said:

 

Great to meet you and your family. Thanks for the visit. Very interesting discussion was had and wishing you the best in your venture. It takes time to learn the in-out of anything in Thailand saying that I shall pickup over on my thread.

Take care Joe and hope to to keep in contact.

Yes, it was good to meet with you and see your lovely set up there. Much appreciated the time you took to show us around.

The information and advice given will be well used by us... We will for sure keep in touch and call in when we are passing nearby.. It will be interesting to see how your wife's project goes along...Obviously it's a long term project and a big learning curve for her also..... Wishing you both good luck with it...Best regards  Joe

[kickstart]

Looking at that black bull I would say he is a Wagyu x mum could have been a Thai Native x Angus.

These 3 breeds are not a big breed cattle like Charolais ,so do not expect 500 -600 kg animal, look at 350-400 kg .and remember Thai Wagyu bulls  are not pure breed, all cross breeds, so  I would say he would only be 25% Wagyu weather  he will have the Wagyu marbling of the meat I would not know. I have heard of  a  100% Wagyu bull, here in Thailand so I have been told, usually, outside of Japan, he was an ET bull, embryo transfer. 

The second one I think is not an  Angus, or no more than 15 -20% that head shape is not right for an Angus, body looks Thai native, it will fatten ok , and being a heifer, but cannot see making any weight, max  300 -350 kg?.

One year old and weighing 120 kg .that is a low weight gain, that is feeding rice straw for you.

As for your feeding a Bpoo-Ut-Hoouh ,in Thai headake in English ,when working out a ration you take all the ingegents that makes up a ration ,and you work out the DM,% dry matter , DMI dry matter intake, how much food the amnmal eats when all the water has been taken out,    ME or TDN,both mesuments of enagey ,that is a  very simpal vertion it gets a lot more complicated,the protein valuse  are worked out afterwards ,so saying is 5.6kg/head/day is enough diffulcult to say ,they are websites avalable that will work rations for you  most are for dairy cows, they are some beef cattle programs avalable.

But as I said if you had some good quality grass you could certainly cut back on the concentrate feed.I would say almost 6gk of feed a day is a lot .                                                                                                                                                           On feed, that feed it  is 8.9baht/kg for a 12% protine, I have just brought  some feed 14% protien 7 baht/kg,I asked about dairy cattle feed ,dairy cattle should have a higher ME/TDN than a beef cattle feed ,dairy cattle need the extra enagey for milk production, a 16% mixed feed .like yours,is 8.6baht/kg ,a pellated feed is9.5 baht /kg, so your feed lookes expencive compaied to the others ,but around here cattle feed is competative, with 3-4 companys compeating for trade,  where you are you must be limated to feed companys ?not being a big cattle area ?.

Has your feed company got you by the wedding tackle, they will not buy your cattle if you do not buy they feed? 

Some dairy farmers buy in feed ingredient and mix they own feeds, soya bean meal, maize meal, palm meal ect cost wise it is the same some like to see what their cows are eating.

This sweet Israel grass, which is just another Nappier grass, I got some Nappier Packchon about 20  full plants ,in fact I had them strapped to the back of a motorbike and drove 50 clicks  ,put them in the in the corner of the garden ,they grew at 60 days we cut them as rootstock  put them in an area 30x30 yads they grew, we made over 400 kg of silage, if we let them grow up they would have been enough rootstock for at least 3-4 rie .

So, you could buy a few plants and just grow them on. 

 

[New Cowboy]

3 hours ago, kickstart said:

Looking at that black bull I would say he is a Wagyu x mum could have been a Thai Native x Angus.

These 3 breeds are not a big breed cattle like Charolais ,so do not expect 500 -600 kg animal, look at 350-400 kg .and remember Thai Wagyu bulls  are not pure breed, all cross breeds, so  I would say he would only be 25% Wagyu weather  he will have the Wagyu marbling of the meat I would not know. I have heard of  a  100% Wagyu bull, here in Thailand so I have been told, usually, outside of Japan, he was an ET bull, embryo transfer. 

The second one I think is not an  Angus, or no more than 15 -20% that head shape is not right for an Angus, body looks Thai native, it will fatten ok , and being a heifer, but cannot see making any weight, max  300 -350 kg?.

One year old and weighing 120 kg .that is a low weight gain, that is feeding rice straw for you.

As for your feeding a Bpoo-Ut-Hoouh ,in Thai headake in English ,when working out a ration you take all the ingegents that makes up a ration ,and you work out the DM,% dry matter , DMI dry matter intake, how much food the amnmal eats when all the water has been taken out,    ME or TDN,both mesuments of enagey ,that is a  very simpal vertion it gets a lot more complicated,the protein valuse  are worked out afterwards ,so saying is 5.6kg/head/day is enough diffulcult to say ,they are websites avalable that will work rations for you  most are for dairy cows, they are some beef cattle programs avalable.

But as I said if you had some good quality grass you could certainly cut back on the concentrate feed.I would say almost 6gk of feed a day is a lot .                                                                                                                                                           On feed, that feed it  is 8.9baht/kg for a 12% protine, I have just brought  some feed 14% protien 7 baht/kg,I asked about dairy cattle feed ,dairy cattle should have a higher ME/TDN than a beef cattle feed ,dairy cattle need the extra enagey for milk production, a 16% mixed feed .like yours,is 8.6baht/kg ,a pellated feed is9.5 baht /kg, so your feed lookes expencive compaied to the others ,but around here cattle feed is competative, with 3-4 companys compeating for trade,  where you are you must be limated to feed companys ?not being a big cattle area ?.

Has your feed company got you by the wedding tackle, they will not buy your cattle if you do not buy they feed? 

Some dairy farmers buy in feed ingredient and mix they own feeds, soya bean meal, maize meal, palm meal ect cost wise it is the same some like to see what their cows are eating.

This sweet Israel grass, which is just another Nappier grass, I got some Nappier Packchon about 20  full plants ,in fact I had them strapped to the back of a motorbike and drove 50 clicks  ,put them in the in the corner of the garden ,they grew at 60 days we cut them as rootstock  put them in an area 30x30 yads they grew, we made over 400 kg of silage, if we let them grow up they would have been enough rootstock for at least 3-4 rie .

So, you could buy a few plants and just grow them on. 

 

Hi Kickstart.......More great info from you, seems like you have been doing it a lifetime or 2 already...

 

Are you suggesting I could move up to a 14% dry protein feed at 7bht per kg ?..   (That would save about 270 bht per bull per month @ rate of 5.6kg daily per bull.)  Would it fatten the bulls more than a 12% protein and in your opinion would it be worth it....

By worth it I mean, where do I get it(distance from Buriram) and also my current feed company may not take our bulls...and could I expect a noticeable faster weight gain? 

 

Would you rate the Wagyu in the picture worth 16500 bht.... I could maybe test the water with that one...

 

Great tip for the sweet Israel grass. I will explain to Fil and I'm sure he will go for it........

 

You say we are not  in a big cattle area down here near Buriram..... Where is the most concentrated cattle area in Thailand?   And would I be able to find an outlet for my Bulls in that area? I don't mind the travelling if we can sell by the kilo.

 

 

 

Thanks again for all of your very helpful info.....

 

Best Regards

 

Joe

 

[farmerjo]

Feed lots only work well when the two markets of buying and selling have a big enough gap to buy in food and make a decent profit.These times need to be studied,it's not a year in year out proposition.

Otherwise normally it would be considered the job of Graziers to fatten and sell.

 

 

[kickstart]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Can you get a 14% feed for 7baht/kg where you are, as I said it is a competitive market, our local feed merchants are always having promotions for one of the feed companies 

.You feed Nappier grass F in L,being a Thai probaly thinks in quantity and not  quality ,and cuts the grass ,as it is getting old ,so loseing quality ,and how much urea does he use, 8 rie will need a lot of urea 300 units a year  per rie about 8-10bags a year applied 2-3 times a year ,old Nappier gras with low urea use will have a protien of no more than 4-5% , then a 14% feed would be needed, you could feed a bit less but no more than 1-2 kg .

Would you get a noticeable weight gain? by use a14 % feed, in a nutshell, no, you might get to your target weight a couple of weeks earlier but do not think  of 2 months earlier  

As for that Wagyu being woth 16500 baht, you are buying it at Wagyu prices, can you sell it at Wagyu prices, you would need more than 100baht/kg,what your feed company is paying,  just to cover costs,  could ship it over to Kwie Bar's and sell it there? , but will they take cattle from outside they own set up? 

As for selling cattle else were, not easy, we have a place near here that pays well for good quality cattle but, the market all over is dropping you might get 120 baht/kg 200 kg away but transport costs and what is called Thai buggeration factor, hassle, would it be worth it.

Farmerjo puts it in a nut shell in his last post markets go up and down ,and it is the low cost grass feed  /graziers that gain . and comeing  from Australia were most? beef cattal are grazed .

This photo is of our Brangus x heifer, mum  is a Thai native  she is 21 months old weighs about 280-290 kg and is  4 months in calf ,I put a Beefmaster bull on her  ,she is fed on  our14% feed  plus brewers grains, Nappier grass silage and the tree legume Gratin in Thai, Leucaena Leucolephala, plus minerals, she has 2 1/2 kg/day of feed and the same of  brewers grains ,all the rest is forage,we have some grazing grass now the rains have come ,and have cut back on feed,and the Gratin.  

[kickstart]

l was in my local feed shop and they had these bales of Alfalfa hay, and believe it or not, comes from the USA they brought in a container load, they are going/try and sell the stuff at 320 baht/bale.

Alfalfa hay has a protein of about 19 %,a good feed for cattle, but very expensive for what it is, if you know anyone who has some horses they will enjoy it.

[Michael Hare]

I clicked into this thread a few minutes ago and saw two blogs mentioning my name. 

 

Thank you for that Kickstart and New Cowboy.

 

Kickstart 

Mulato II has a protein of 10-12% and if grown and managed well cattle can put on 0.4-0.6 kg/live weight/day on this grass alone (these are USA  figures,I would say 0.4 kg/lw/day here in Thailand ), but it likes a free draining land.

Have a word with Michal Hare at Ubon Forage seeds, he is our grass expert, and he will advise he also has a Guinea grass  seed again 10% protein plus. 

Thais like Nappier easy to grow, just stick it in the ground  like cassasava  and it grows, easy to harvest ,grass seed must have a good seed bed, not always easy to do with Thai equipment,then drilling the seed ,

 

 

New Cowboy

Grass Feed...Yes Nappier does seem to be the most popular choice and is seen growing nearly everywhere locally.

They start it off by using stalks not seeds. The cost is about 1 bht each.. I was introduced to sweet Israel grass the other day.

 

If I may, I would like to add a few comments. There is a lot of promotion by government agencies, in particular, the Thai Department of Livestock Development in promoting Napier grass and associated lines of Napier grass like this new one Sweet grass. I heard from one farmer that while is may be sweet (Who knows? Ask the cow eating it), it has very tough stems and these have to be chopped up befofre feeding to the cows. More energy lost there. Stems as New Cowboy says are expensive to buy. I rai may require something like 20,000 stems or more. Crazy to me. By the way, Napier grass does not produce viable seeds.

 

The Livestock Department for some reason refuse to even mention our grass species. Probably a jealousy thing. 

 

However, farmers are not dumb. They know a good grass when they see it. We have sold nearly 30,000 kg of grass seeds in Thailand this year. This is pleasing, because it means that Thai farmers are buying good species. In and around Ubon there is a growing market for fresh grass sales on the roadsides. Several villages are now growing grass full-time, all year round to supply this market. And the grass they think is the best is Mombasa guinea grass. Purple guinea is declining in popularity because of leaf diseases. I have just released another new guinea grass this year. Named it Mun River guinea grass after the big river here in Ubon. 

 

One last comment. I emjoyed reading this thread about the economics of raising beef cattle in Thailand.

[JungleBiker]

On 6/4/2018 at 12:24 PM, kickstart said:

l was in my local feed shop and they had these bales of Alfalfa hay, and believe it or not, comes from the USA they brought in a container load, they are going/try and sell the stuff at 320 baht/bale.

Alfalfa hay has a protein of about 19 %,a good feed for cattle, but very expensive for what it is, if you know anyone who has some horses they will enjoy it.

I can't mention any names but I know there is a large dairy farm in northeast Thailand that is owned by a major company and is getting very good milk yields (I can look up the yields if anyone is interested). They are importing container loads of the above product (bales of alfalfa hay from USA) to feed their cows. I guess they pay far less than the above retail price. Perhaps the above bales were imported by the same company. 

[khwaibah]

1 hour ago, JungleBiker said:

I can't mention any names but I know there is a large dairy farm in northeast Thailand that is owned by a major company and is getting very good milk yields (I can look up the yields if anyone is interested). They are importing container loads of the above product (bales of alfalfa hay from USA) to feed their cows. I guess they pay far less than the above retail price. Perhaps the above bales were imported by the same company. 

 

Thai Danish Farm http://www.dpo.go.th or Farm Chokchai  http://www.farmchokchai.com/en/index_content.php?content_id=29