Capital Gains On Retirement Visa

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

WHAT IF i have capital gains, trading stocks and options,  in a bank account outside thailand, while i reside in thailand on retirement visa - will i have to have a work permit to do that? AND what about taxes - will i have to pay taxes on those capital gains in thailand, even if i am on a retirement visa?

Edited December 14, 2017 by metisdead
Unnecessary usage of ALL CAPS in topic title removed.

[ubonjoe]

No need for a work permit for having capital gains. You can can buy and sell your own stocks without a work permit.

Unless you bring the money into the country during the year earned they are not taxable.

[tonray]

Thailand also has agreements with many countries to prevent double taxation. For example as a US citizen I pay tax to the US therefore I am not required to pay tax on that same income here. You need to verify if your country has an agreement and whether you can choose where to pay your taxes and what conditions you might have to meet to switch to paying your taxes to Thailand rather than your home country.

[elviajero]

You don't need a work permit to manage your own finances. If you are living in Thailand for more than 180 days in any tax year you are considered 'resident for tax' and are responsible for declaring any tax due. I suggest you contact an accountant who would be able to advise your options.

 

Here is a link to the Thai Revenue Department. http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

[rockingrobin]

3 hours ago, tonray said:

Thailand also has agreements with many countries to prevent double taxation. For example as a US citizen I pay tax to the US therefore I am not required to pay tax on that same income here. You need to verify if your country has an agreement and whether you can choose where to pay your taxes and what conditions you might have to meet to switch to paying your taxes to Thailand rather than your home country.

The international treaties do not give individuals the right to choose where to pay taxes. What they do is state which  contracting party has the right to tax

[tonray]

1 hour ago, rockingrobin said:

The international treaties do not give individuals the right to choose where to pay taxes. What they do is state which  contracting party has the right to tax

All I know is all the discussion about paying taxes in Thailand on investment income for a US citizen are not relevant. But others will need to assess their individual situation.

[berybert]

Why would any declare something they don't have too. 

Why do people make so much trouble for themselves.

Just live here and relax, theres enough hassle with 90 days reports and yearly visa without giving yourself problems for no reason.

All your earnings are outside of Thailand and nobody has any need or reason to know about it.

No need to make it a problem.

Edited December 14, 2017 by berybert

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

5 hours ago, berybert said:

Why would any declare something they don't have too. 

Why do people make so much trouble for themselves.

Just live here and relax, theres enough hassle with 90 days reports and yearly visa without giving yourself problems for no reason.

All your earnings are outside of Thailand and nobody has any need or reason to know about it.

No need to make it a problem.

well, the problem these days is that global banking system is closing down on all tax evaders. most banks in western countries won;t accept deposits, cash or TT, without sufficient proof that tax was paid, be it small or big amounts. and in some countries banks might freeze or even confiscate your money in your account with them, unless you give them a letter from lawyer or tax authorities in your country of residence / the country you say the money was earned, stating that taxes were paid on that amount, the amount of money which you think is yours. happaned to a friend of mine, that A bank refused to let him TT 100K USD which he help in an account with them for 12 years !! they didnt tell him about this difficulty when he opened the account...

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

12 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

No need for a work permit for having capital gains. You can can buy and sell your own stocks without a work permit.

Unless you bring the money into the country during the year earned they are not taxable.

and if i bring it into the country during the year they are earned...??? taxman  allways have a way to make life harder

[gk10002000]

3 hours ago, berybert said:

Why would any declare something they don't have too. 

Why do people make so much trouble for themselves.

Just live here and relax, theres enough hassle with 90 days reports and yearly visa without giving yourself problems for no reason.

All your earnings are outside of Thailand and nobody has any need or reason to know about it.

No need to make it a problem.

I would not necessarily that nobody has any need or reason to know about it.   In some cases they do.

[tonray]

3 hours ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

and if i bring it into the country during the year they are earned...??? taxman  allways have a way to make life harder

What country are you from ?

[notamember]

9 hours ago, tonray said:

What country are you from ?

you need to ask?

[tonray]

1 minute ago, notamember said:

you need to ask?

Not sure what that means but only trying to help him determine if his country already has tax treaty with Thailand to avoid double taxation.  In general expats here are remarkably ignorant about tax obligations including treaties and foreign earned income exemptions.

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

8 hours ago, tonray said:

Not sure what that means but only trying to help him determine if his country already has tax treaty with Thailand to avoid double taxation.  In general expats here are remarkably ignorant about tax obligations including treaties and foreign earned income exemptions.

REST assure that i do know about the treaties between thailand and my country, it's not something that can't be google. but how to use that information to minimise  tax payments,  - now that's another question.  ANYHOW, since the obama administration declared global war on tax heavens and many other governments joined gladly, there are new rules and regulations coming every year, some of them are weird and / or draconian, like few years jail for a family member who helps a husband to hide assets from his wife, in case of divorce...yes, the banks in europe are interfering  now in  marriage disputes spouses too...

[ChouDoufu]

if i understand correctly, thailand does not tax capital gains.

dividends are taxed at 10%, interest at 15%.

 

https://www.set.or.th/en/regulations/tax/tax_p1.html

 

interest on my fixed account is deducted 15%,

the dividends i received last week were taxed 10%.

 

the bualuang rep where i have a brokerage account

tells me no tax on capital gains.

 

uncle sam will tax the capital gains on thai stocks

i bought with money earned in china.

 

sadly, the foreign earned income exclusion does

not apply to passive income like capital gains.

 

...and don't forget to file your FBAR!

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

On 12/15/2017 at 4:10 PM, ChouDoufu said:

if i understand correctly, thailand does not tax capital gains.

dividends are taxed at 10%, interest at 15%.

 

https://www.set.or.th/en/regulations/tax/tax_p1.html

 

interest on my fixed account is deducted 15%,

the dividends i received last week were taxed 10%.

 

the bualuang rep where i have a brokerage account

tells me no tax on capital gains.

 

uncle sam will tax the capital gains on thai stocks

i bought with money earned in china.

 

sadly, the foreign earned income exclusion does

not apply to passive income like capital gains.

 

...and don't forget to file your FBAR!

 

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

thanks, that's great info. allthought i am not a u.s. citizen. and i would like to use this opportunity to ask you how are the brokerage services of bualuang. are you satisfied with them? do they offer extensive range of products and access to stock trading in US / EU markets?

[ChouDoufu]

satisfied with the service.  fast/easy account setup.

easy link to bangkok bank accounts, low trading commissions.

trading is limited, mostly to thai stock exchange.

not much in the way of etf's or mutual funds.

 

i'm trying this out over 8 months, see if we can do

better than 1% fixed account for the 800K before

it has to go back for seasoning.

 

other option would be the limited selection of mutual

funds (invesco, wellington, fidellity) from bangkok bank.

problem there is you need to open a new account

for each mutual fund, which means another trip to

silom with many paperworks and "the letter from the

embassy" each time to exchange/buy new funds.

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

5 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

satisfied with the service.  fast/easy account setup.

easy link to bangkok bank accounts, low trading commissions.

trading is limited, mostly to thai stock exchange.

not much in the way of etf's or mutual funds.

 

i'm trying this out over 8 months, see if we can do

better than 1% fixed account for the 800K before

it has to go back for seasoning.

 

other option would be the limited selection of mutual

funds (invesco, wellington, fidellity) from bangkok bank.

problem there is you need to open a new account

for each mutual fund, which means another trip to

silom with many paperworks and "the letter from the

embassy" each time to exchange/buy new funds.

Sounds bad. thai stock market is not so attractive. and opening a new account for each mutual fund? why would you go threw all this hastle when you can open an account in an american brokerage, like ameritrade.com, and buy from 10;s of thousands of mutual funds, incl. templeton thailand, with a click of a mouse? and  what the hell means the "letter from the embassy"? 

[ChouDoufu]

you would do that because of the hassle of trying to

send money OUT of thailand without a work permit.

 

the "letter from the embassy" is the notarized document

from your embassy stating that your passport is

indeed your passport, with which those without

work permits may open bank accounts.

 

i shall return to bkk bank silom in a couple weeks with

a residence certificate, see if that will suffice.  in that

case could open 3-4 mutual fund accounts, each with

the minimum 500 baht balance.....after confirming

can move funds in/out of each account once open.

[ChouDoufu]

went to bkk bank silom today.  will NOT open accounts

(non-O retired) without work permit or condo/house deed

or SWIFT recommendation letter, or the letter from the

embassy.  the certificate of residence issued by immigration

(for driving license) was NOT accepted.

 

already have 3 accounts with bkk bank, they finally

accepted a 2-year old "eligible to marry" affidavit

notarized by the embassy.

 

opened a new fixed account to replace the old one

opened with tourist visa that could not be accessed

online.  also opened ONE investment account to

hold mutual funds (and purchased three).  both accounts

now registered thru online banking.

 

and news from the fixed account front.  new policy

is minimum term is now 6 months.  no more 1- or

3-month deposits.  now get zero interest if using

fixed account for 800k seasoning.  6 month rate is

1.25%, regular savings rate is 0.50%.

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

On 1/3/2018 at 12:35 PM, ChouDoufu said:

went to bkk bank silom today.  will NOT open accounts

(non-O retired) without work permit or condo/house deed

or SWIFT recommendation letter, or the letter from the

embassy.  the certificate of residence issued by immigration

(for driving license) was NOT accepted.

 

already have 3 accounts with bkk bank, they finally

accepted a 2-year old "eligible to marry" affidavit

notarized by the embassy.

 

opened a new fixed account to replace the old one

opened with tourist visa that could not be accessed

online.  also opened ONE investment account to

hold mutual funds (and purchased three).  both accounts

now registered thru online banking.

 

and news from the fixed account front.  new policy

is minimum term is now 6 months.  no more 1- or

3-month deposits.  now get zero interest if using

fixed account for 800k seasoning.  6 month rate is

1.25%, regular savings rate is 0.50%.

I am not sure why you try so hard with thai banks. as i mentioned to you, no need to open account in thailand if you want to invest in thailand. you can buy investments in thailand with any big bank in US/ eu/ HONG KONG. and as for the fixed deposit - better go to cambodia where you can get 6-8 & on USD DEPOSITS !! AND NO PROBLEM OPENING BANK ACCOUNTS ! and one year visa = 300 usd, no qestions / bullshit asked. and maybe you better try another branch of bkk bank - located outside of bkk centre. you will be amazed how easier it will be.

[ChouDoufu]

trying so hard to avoid the annual hassle of moving US$20K

out of thailand each year without a work permit.

 

a few more % in cambodia?  not sure i trust their banks any

more than i do the ones here.  having to make two trips

every year plus purchase two visas and use up two passport

pages doesn't sound worthwhile.

 

as situation now stands, i have online accounts at bangkok

bank and at baluang securities.  i can sit here in my

underwear, without leaving the apartment, and can buy &

sell individual thai stocks plus a small number of thai

etf's, and a selection of mutual funds, mostly thai, but

with a dozen or so foreign equity baskets.  i can move

the cash around between broker account, fixed account,

a couple savings accounts and mutual fund account

with no paperwork and no office visits.

 

early november, put the 800K into stocks - bought

50K each of 15 stocks plus 50K of a set50 etf.

so far doing much, much better than a simple

fixed account.  set50 is up 4% in 60 days.  some

stocks up, some down.  TMB up 17% yay!

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

On 1/5/2018 at 3:31 PM, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

I a

On 1/5/2018 at 3:31 PM, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

I am not sure why you try so hard with thai banks. as i mentioned to you, no need to open account in thailand if you want to invest in thailand. you can buy investments in thailand with any big bank in US/ eu/ HONG KONG. and as for the fixed deposit - better go to cambodia where you can get 6-8 & on USD DEPOSITS !! AND NO PROBLEM OPENING BANK ACCOUNTS ! and one year visa = 300 usd, no qestions / bullshit asked. and maybe you better try another branch of bkk bank - located outside of bkk centre. you will be amazed how easier it will be.

 

well good luck to you, but as i mentioned, you could buy into thai stock market from an account overseas, and than you won't be buddered at all with moving money out of thailand. i still don't understand why would you budder with opening all those brokerage accounts in thailand, when as a US citizen, you can have access to all those thai securities from the US. i think the commisions in US are much cheaper, and this way you also save yourself reporting to the US tax system, cause as a US citizen you must declare all your income all over the world. 

Edited January 16, 2018 by SCOTT FITZGERSLD

[ChouDoufu]

3 hours ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

....and than you won't be buddered at all with moving money out of thailand.....

this is for the 800k baht for the retirement visa/extension.

 

it gots to sit in the bank for mimimum 3 months every year.

so with transfers back and forth and a couple weeks safety,

4 months of the year.  every year.

it's already here.  if i moves it out, i gots to moves it back.

every year.

 

which is ueber hassle without work permit.

did i mention no work permit?

 

3 hours ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

....and this way you also save yourself reporting to the US tax system, cause as a US citizen you must declare all your income all over the world. 

teach me.  how can i avoid reporting to the us tax system

by putting money in us accounts and receiving capital gains

and dividends in us accounts?

 

as to commissions.....bualuang charges 0.15% to buy or sell.

unless my maffs is wrong, buy and then sell 800k will cost a

total of 2400 baht....about 75 bucks.....just about as much as

the transfer fees to move cash in and out.

 

which would be a pain anyways.  not having a work permit,

i'd have to waste a day trying to have the bank swift money

out of thailand.

 

btw, got the single mutual fund holding account set up with

online banking at bangkok bank.  was successfully able to

buy a new fund online.  they have a couple dozen foreign

investment funds available, so no need to buy thai stocks.

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

9 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

this is for the 800k baht for the retirement visa/extension.

 

it gots to sit in the bank for mimimum 3 months every year.

so with transfers back and forth and a couple weeks safety,

4 months of the year.  every year.

it's already here.  if i moves it out, i gots to moves it back.

every year.

 

which is ueber hassle without work permit.

did i mention no work permit?

 

teach me.  how can i avoid reporting to the us tax system

by putting money in us accounts and receiving capital gains

and dividends in us accounts?

 

as to commissions.....bualuang charges 0.15% to buy or sell.

unless my maffs is wrong, buy and then sell 800k will cost a

total of 2400 baht....about 75 bucks.....just about as much as

the transfer fees to move cash in and out.

 

which would be a pain anyways.  not having a work permit,

i'd have to waste a day trying to have the bank swift money

out of thailand.

 

btw, got the single mutual fund holding account set up with

online banking at bangkok bank.  was successfully able to

buy a new fund online.  they have a couple dozen foreign

investment funds available, so no need to buy thai stocks.

you give interesting info.

last time i checked with bangkok bank,

they would'nt allow investment account without work permit.

the 0.15% commision is not all you pay, there are also custody fees.

online u.s. brokers like ameritrade.com charge 7-8 USD per transaction,

so say you buy 25000 USD worth of stock / mutual fund,

you pay only 7 USD. when you sell it - you pay again 7 USD. total 14 USD = less than 500 baht.

and no custody fees. and you get immidiate access to 200% MARGIN ACCOUNT.

now, about reporting to the US taxman -  if you plan to never report to the US govenment,

than it's a risk.

be warned that when it comes to the US, banks all

over the world are very very carefull, and some won't even open accounts to "u.s. person"

( u.s. person means anyone who has a business with the u.s., even if he is not a u.s. citizen).

so hopefully your 800k BHT will grow few folds, than you will have 

few millions baht, and than, than, than...well than comes the tax man,

with a big axe...happaned to friends of mine (not in thailand)...

some got all their money confiscated, others were allowed

to get their money only in the form of a cheque,

means that now they need to find a bank who will agree to deposit this cheque...

that is why i say  -better plan than sorry, especially if you are a "U.S. person" -

(i am not a u.s. citizen / person).

[ChouDoufu]

most of my cash is invested in the us.  only have

living expenses and the required 800k here in thailand.

 

thailand taxes interest at 15%, dividends at 10%,

capital gains at 0%.  i can apply for a refund of

the above, or i may be able to deduct them from

us tax owed on my irs form - which will offset

the us tax on any gains in thailand.

 

the empire will tax all my income regardless of

source.   the lovely mr trump has increased the

standard deduction for single filers to $12K,

and increased the bracket for 0% long-term

capital gains to $38K.  so first $50K can be

tax-free.  (plus $100K or so of foreign earned

income if working)

 

800k (us$25K) is small beans.  i just hate that i

gotta leave it in the bank at 1% while they lend

it out at 28%.

 

did i mention i no have work permit?  no desire

to spend a day at the main branch of b-bank

being told i cannot send money out of thailand.

 

for the 8 months not being seasoned, i can do

any of the following online, in my underpants:

 

1.  fixed account at 1.25%  and get about 6500 baht.  ($200)

2.  play thai stock market, maybe earn 5%....40k baht.  ($1250)

3.  buy some foreign mutuals, perhaps 10%...80k baht.  ($2500)

 

as to b'bank accounts.  work permits are requested, but if you

have an o-visa, they will open fixed/savings/mutual accounts

if you have a condo title (rental contract not enough), a bank

recommendation via SWIFT, or "the letter from the embassy."

the residence certificate available from immigration is not

acceptable.  b'bank's bualuang securities subsidiary is less

strict. 

 

not aware of these "holding fees".  b'bank charges 0.15% sales

charge on their mutuals with the buy/sell spread on the NAV.

there are fees charged by the company (wellington, fidelity, etc)

managing the fund, listed in the prospectus.

bualuang charges a direct 0.15% commission on buy and sell.

 

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

On 1/17/2018 at 12:06 PM, ChouDoufu said:

most of my cash is invested in the us.  only have

living expenses and the required 800k here in thailand.

 

thailand taxes interest at 15%, dividends at 10%,

capital gains at 0%.  i can apply for a refund of

the above, or i may be able to deduct them from

us tax owed on my irs form - which will offset

the us tax on any gains in thailand.

 

the empire will tax all my income regardless of

source.   the lovely mr trump has increased the

standard deduction for single filers to $12K,

and increased the bracket for 0% long-term

capital gains to $38K.  so first $50K can be

tax-free.  (plus $100K or so of foreign earned

income if working)

 

800k (us$25K) is small beans.  i just hate that i

gotta leave it in the bank at 1% while they lend

it out at 28%.

 

did i mention i no have work permit?  no desire

to spend a day at the main branch of b-bank

being told i cannot send money out of thailand.

 

for the 8 months not being seasoned, i can do

any of the following online, in my underpants:

 

1.  fixed account at 1.25%  and get about 6500 baht.  ($200)

2.  play thai stock market, maybe earn 5%....40k baht.  ($1250)

3.  buy some foreign mutuals, perhaps 10%...80k baht.  ($2500)

 

as to b'bank accounts.  work permits are requested, but if you

have an o-visa, they will open fixed/savings/mutual accounts

if you have a condo title (rental contract not enough), a bank

recommendation via SWIFT, or "the letter from the embassy."

the residence certificate available from immigration is not

acceptable.  b'bank's bualuang securities subsidiary is less

strict. 

 

not aware of these "holding fees".  b'bank charges 0.15% sales

charge on their mutuals with the buy/sell spread on the NAV.

there are fees charged by the company (wellington, fidelity, etc)

managing the fund, listed in the prospectus.

bualuang charges a direct 0.15% commission on buy and sell.

 

0.15% on buy and sell mutual funds? that's cheap. that is why i love thailand. not greedy.

and let me give you a tip : b'bank has different policies in different branches. the more distant you are from silom - the easier. i have friends who opened b'bank account just with a tourist visa. but no foreign currency, only baht saving account. and they really use it as tourists, to save on ATM fees.