FBAR Time Again

[CMBob]

14 hours ago, JimGant said:

So, if you haven't filed your FBAR, it's no longer an easy matter of unsigning last year's FBAR, changing some dates and figures, then resigning. You now have to download their new form, which is still version 1.0, effective Oct 1, 2013 -- and where the only difference is the now obsolete June 30th reporting banner is replaced with:

I had no clue that one could "save" the form on the government's website.  I just fill in the info, electronically sign and submit it, and then save and print a copy of the report for my records.  I also save a copy of the two emails you get from FinCen (the one acknowledging the submission and the second one accepting the submission).

 

By the way, it appears the Treasury baht/USDollar rate was published around January 11th.....the rate for 2017 being 32.6 baht to the dollar.  

[JimGant]

Quote

I had no clue that one could "save" the form on the government's website.

You can't. If you go the 'online' route, you have to complete everything in one session -- you can't save it and return to it later. That is why downloading the pdf version, and filling it out at your leisure, seems the best way to go. And that is what their new instruction is referring to, saying you can't use last years pdf FBAR form and just modify the numbers and info that has changed. Kinda stupid, as it seems the only change in the form is the "file by date."

 

For those not familiar with the "online" filing method, here's some guidance from their site:

 

Quote

The online FBAR form does not allow you to save your progress during form completion as it is designed to benefit filers who are ready to file the FBAR today. If you have gathered all information needed to complete and submit the FBAR in a one-sitting, then the online form might be right for you.
NOTE: You will have the opportunity to download a read-only copy of your FBAR after submission for record keeping purposes. If you need to amend your FBAR for any reason, you will not be able to use this copy for resubmission.

 

 

[Pib]

On 2/6/2018 at 7:26 PM, JimGant said:

I just saw this:

So, if you haven't filed your FBAR, it's no longer an easy matter of unsigning last year's FBAR, changing some dates and figures, then resigning. You now have to download their new form, which is still version 1.0, effective Oct 1, 2013 -- and where the only difference is the now obsolete June 30th reporting banner is replaced with:

Bad news for you folks with mucho bank accounts and carpal tunnel syndrome.

Jim,

   Today I started my cut and paste from last year's Ver 1.0 form to this year's Ver 1.0 form.  Got all my cutting and pasting done...just need to update the amounts, double check entries,  and file.  I always file the FBAR after I file my federal return. 

 

    Dragging my feet somewhat on filing my federal return since I will need to send Donald almost a $1000 this year.  I think this is the only second time in my tax filing life I owe vs being due a refund....and that one time before I owed only around $150.  Some lazy tax planning on my part for a significant increase in income for 2017.  Oh well, at least i owe due to increased income and I've already adjusted pay tax withholding amounts to prevent me from owing big money on next year's return.   

 

   However, during my FBAR cutting and pasting I did notice one more difference in the form from last year and this year's form.  And that is in Parts III and IV where Joint Owner info is entered.  There is now a Check box to select if the Joint Owner is an "Entity" vs a Person like your spouse.  If clicking the check box for Entity it then greys-out the blocks for a person's first name, middle name, and suffix....you then just need to enter the Entity's organization name.

 

  Although the changes are minor they are still changes.   They really should have put a new version number and new effective date but they didn't.   Guess Mr Treasury Dept don't want to admit he did make minor changes in the form.   But with these minor changes I guess it would allow their automatic system to detect if this year's form is being submitted or not.  

 

    And if you had not made your comment about the new Ver 1.0 I would have probably just unsigned last year's submission, updated amounts, resigned, and resubmitted.  Although I check for form difference each year and download a new blank FBAR form to check if any changes had occurred, I did that in early Jan 18 and apparently the Treasury Dept put their update Ver 1.0 form up after that.

 

                  STOP.....STOP....STOP....STOP....STOP.

 

  Before closing/hitting send on this post I went to the Treasury Dept FBAR site where you Get/Prepare the Individual PDF form which really just downloads the latest form for you to prepare offline and then submit which I've done for years.   When I did this on 7 Feb after reading your 7 Feb post about the changed version it downloaded the version with the minor changes....the one talking the file by Apr 18 date.

 

   However, but, doing it just now it now downloads the old ver 1.0 where it says file by Apr 17 versus Apr 18.    And then even tried the weblink from within  below Treasury Dept announcement talking the new form, the changes in the form, etc. and the link to download it.  But the link in the announcement takes you to the FBAR filing page which I've always went to.....I downloaded the form again and this time it downloads the version from last year.  I tried in Chrome and Edge...refreshed screens, etc....still downloads last year version.

https://bsaefiling.fincen.treas.gov/docs/ImportantNoticetoFBARE-Filers-ReportofForeignBankandFinancialAccounts.pdf

 

Why don't you try re-downloading the form and see what version you get.   Messed up FBAR website?  Something strange going on with my computer?   Would just like to see which form some else gets if downloading today.  Strange.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JimGant]

Pib, I get the "April 17" version. And I don't even want to explore what in the world a joint account with an "entity" is all about -- possibly a ladyboy?

[Pib]

 

Just now, JimGant said:

Pib, I get the "April 17" version. And I don't even want to explore what in the world a joint account with an "entity" is all about -- possibly a ladyboy?

Jim,

 

Well that confirms the Treasury Dept has changed the form "again" without changing the version number....maybe they don't want to make public they may have goofed in not changing version number, effective date, etc., and someone made them revert to the old version.

 

However, I just notice the Ver 1.0 form you download today "does" have the Entity check block but it still has the Apr 17 file date which means the really didn't fully revert to the "original" Ver 1.0.  They need some new Admin clerks.

 

So, I'm assuming the earlier Ver 1.0 a person files this year would be accepted?  But who really knows until they try.

 

 

[Pib]

I just sent the BSA/FinCen boys and girls at Treasury an email asking which Version 1.0 is the latest one to file as they seems to be changing it without changing the version number but still making minor revisions.  Not to mention the version on the website today says file by Apr 17 vs Apr 18 like their earlier Ver 1.0 stated. 

 

See if they respond sometime come next week about what is going on...which is the latest and greatest form.   Maybe they just got the wrong form loaded on their website today and don't even know it.   We'll see if they respond next week.

 

[Pib]

The Treasury boys and girls did respond with below answer which is incorrect in my evaluation as the form downloaded as recently as mid Feb 18 has a filing date requirement of Apr 18 a the top of the form like it for use in this year's.  But the form you download now (the only one you can download) has a filing date of Apr 17 like it's the old form used for last year's filing. 

 

And they also side-stepped the issue of the addition of the new "Entity" check box which is new to the form but they still didn't update the "revision date" of the form. 

 

I have already went back with a rebuttal asking them to  relook there answer...bascially, asking again which form is the correct one to use.   

 

I also downloaded the form again this morning and it still downloads the form to be used for last year's filing as it states file by Apr 17.

 

If they respond to my rebuttal my gut is telling me they will say either form will work...that is, the form that says file by Apr 17 or the other form that says file by Apr 18 since both have been on their website for download.  Will update if I get a response.

 

Quote

The old version of the Report 114- FBAR looks exactly the same as the new form. Please fill out the form that is provided on the BSA E-Filing system.

 Thank you for contacting the BSA E-Filing Help Desk.

If you have any questions, please let us know.

Thank you,
BSA E-Filing Help Desk
Phone: 866-346-9478
8:00 am to 6:00 pm EST
[email protected]

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Pib

[JimGant]

Pib, here's my take....

2016 FBAR data was, under the new rules, due April 18, 2017 -- to coincide with Federal tax due date for that year. But the Version 1.0 form we used in 2017 still read: Due June 30th. So, when they first redid the form for filing 2017 FBAR data in 2018, they forgot that "April 18" is a moveable date -- but screwed up by putting that date on the form. Whooops. Due date for 2017 FBAR data (in lock step with Fed tax due date) is April 17, 2018, not April 18. So, back to the printing press. Now, next year Fed tax due date is April 16. Will we now have a new FBAR form just to accommodate this change in date? I hope not, 'cause all my data, except for some baht figures, hasn't changed in years. Certainly easier to unsign, redo numbers, then sign again and submit. GD bureaucrats. Grrrrrr

[JimGant]

Quote

The old version of the Report 114- FBAR looks exactly the same as the new form. Please fill out the form that is provided on the BSA E-Filing system.

Suspect they mean "old version" is the one with the erroneous filing date of "April 18," and the new form has the corrected due date of "April 17."

[Pib]

But the correct filing date is Apr 18; not Apr 17.

[JimGant]

Quote

But the correct filing date is Apr 18; not Apr 17.

April 18 was for tax year (FBAR year) 2016. April 15 fell on a Saturday, then Sunday, then Monday was Emancipation Day in DC -- thus not due until April 18, 2017. For tax year (FBAR year 2017), April 15 fell on a Sunday, then we had Monday as a holiday (Emancipation Day), thus due date in 2018 is April 17.

[Pib]

3 hours ago, JimGant said:

April 18 was for tax year (FBAR year) 2016. April 15 fell on a Saturday, then Sunday, then Monday was Emancipation Day in DC -- thus not due until April 18, 2017. For tax year (FBAR year 2017), April 15 fell on a Sunday, then we had Monday as a holiday (Emancipation Day), thus due date in 2018 is April 17.

There is my disconnect.  I was in the thought train that 17 and 18 represented the "year" and not the day.   That is Apr 2017 or Apr 2018.  Guess I'm more use to seeing date listed in day, month, year sequence such as 17 Apr 2018 versus Apr 17, 2018.

 

Guess I will need to email back the boys and girls at Treasury and tell them "Never Mind."  

 

[Rhys]

On 1/4/2018 at 12:19 PM, JimGant said:

As Joe said, wife has no FBAR responsibility if not a US citizen or resident. However, if she has a joint account with you, the full amount of that account (not half) will be reported on your FBAR (in  the joint section), with the wife listed as "principal joint owner" (I know that sounds counterintuitive, but it's your FBAR, so you are the "principal owner" of this joint account. Sigh.) Anyway, leave the TIN block blank, but check the "foreign" box for TIN type.

 

Congrats on your marriage. Have you determined whether to file "Married Filing Jointly" or "Married Filing Separately?"

 

  Good point on the filing status.... what are the most obvious advantages and disadvantages.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I say this with the caveat that I haven't gotten in to the Trump tax laws changes as yet, and whether those will change the situation in this circumstance for the future.

 

But, in my situation, I made the conscious decision in past years to do married filing separate status for myself, being married to a Thai citizen living in Thailand. At least in the past, the advantage of doing this was that you could claim an additional $4000 or so personal exemption for the Thai wife -- just so long as she has no U.S.-source income (not even $1, even including things like bank interest). But all of her Thai-source income remains outside the U.S. taxation world.

 

In my case, my wife earns a decent salary here in LOS, so adding her salary to my U.S. taxable income -- if I had decided to file married jointly -- wouldn't have been particularly advantageous.  But in other cases, where the Thai wife has little or no taxable income, then a different dynamic might apply and make married filing jointly more attractive.

 

To qualify for the personal exemption, the non-resident alien spouse has to apply to the IRS for an ITIN number (Individual Taxpayer Identification Number).

 

Here's some links on the topic: (but again, need to check any implications from the Trump tax law changes):

 

https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/family/claiming-a-non-citizen-spouse-and-children-on-your-taxes-/L6VM4IzTQ

 

Quote

 

For each person listed on your tax return—you, your spouse and any children or other dependents—you can subtract a certain amount from your taxable income. This amount is called an "exemption," and for the 2017 tax year, it's $4,050 per person. So if you were to list you, your spouse, and two children, your taxable income could be reduced by $16,200. This could significantly shrink your tax bill and, depending on your income, might even eliminate it altogether.
.....
Spouse's tax status

If your spouse is a nonresident alien, you have two options:

• Treat your spouse as a resident alien for tax purposes. If you choose this option, you can file a joint tax return with your spouse. You will get the exemption for your spouse, but all your spouse's worldwide income will be taxed by the United States.
• Treat your spouse as a nonresident alien for tax purposes. If you choose this option, you cannot file a joint tax return. You must file with a status of "married filing separately." You may still be able to claim an exemption for your spouse, but only if that spouse has no income from U.S. sources and cannot be claimed as a dependent on anyone else's tax return.

Consider spouse's worldwide income

Vincenzo Villamena, managing partner of a firm that provides tax planning help for Americans living overseas and others with special situations, says the easiest thing to do is to simply file a joint return, treating a nonresident spouse as a resident, if necessary. “But for long term tax planning, this might not be the most beneficial move,” he says.

That's because the money you would save by gaining an exemption for the spouse might be less than the additional tax you would have to pay because all of your spouse's worldwide income will be subject to U.S. tax. “Every case is different in this situation,” Villamena says, so it pays to run the numbers using different options and see what saves you the most money.

 

 

Note, the top of this article had this explanation re the Trump tax law changes:

 

Quote

The article below is accurate for your 2017 taxes, the one that you file this year by the April 2018 deadline, including a few retroactive changes due to the passing of tax reform. Some tax information below will change next year for your 2018 taxes, but won’t impact you this year.

 

Some other links on the topic:

 

https://www.americansabroad.org/nonamerican-spouse-us-tax-implications/

 

https://www.hrblock.com/tax-center/filing/personal-tax-planning/filing-taxes-when-married-to-non-us-citizen/

 

https://www.expattaxcpas.com/us-tax-filing-when-marrying-a-foreigner-in-a-foreign-land/

 

[up-country_sinclair]

Do I understand correctly that a penalty-free, automatic extension is given until October 15, 2018?

[Pib]

2 minutes ago, up-country_sinclair said:

Do I understand correctly that a penalty-free, automatic extension is given until October 15, 2018?

Correct.   Congress wrote some confusing wording into a 2015 law regarding FBAR submission....to deconfuse things for the public an automatic extension to 15 Oct applies.  A person needs to do nothing to get the extension.  Effectively the no later filing date is 15 Oct vs mid Apr.

 

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/report-of-foreign-bank-and-financial-accounts-fbar

Quote

 

The FBAR is a calendar year report and must be filed on or before April 15 of the year following the calendar year being reported. Effective July 1, 2013, the FBAR must be filed electronically through FinCEN’s BSA E-Filing System. 

 

The FBAR is not filed with a federal tax return. When the IRS grants a filing extension for a taxpayer’s income tax return, it does not extend the time to file an FBAR. Prior to the passing of the Surface Transportation and Veterans Health Care Choice Improvement Act of 2015, there was no provision for requesting an extension of time to file an FBAR. The Act mandates a maximum six-month extension of the filing deadline. To implement the statute with minimal burden to the public, FinCEN will grant filers failing to meet the FBAR annual due date of April 15 an automatic extension to October 15 each year. Accordingly, specific requests for this extension are not required. 

 

 

[Rhys]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I say this with the caveat that I haven't gotten in to the Trump tax laws changes as yet, and whether those will change the situation in this circumstance for the future.

 

But, in my situation, I made the conscious decision in past years to do married filing separate status for myself, being married to a Thai citizen living in Thailand. At least in the past, the advantage of doing this was that you could claim an additional $4000 or so personal exemption for the Thai wife -- just so long as she has no U.S.-source income (not even $1, even including things like bank interest). But all of her Thai-source income remains outside the U.S. taxation world.

 

In my case, my wife earns a decent salary here in LOS, so adding her salary to my U.S. taxable income -- if I had decided to file married jointly -- wouldn't have been particularly advantageous.  But in other cases, where the Thai wife has little or no taxable income, then a different dynamic might apply and make married filing jointly more attractive.

 

To qualify for the personal exemption, the non-resident alien spouse has to apply to the IRS for an ITIN number (Individual Taxpayer Identification Number).

 

Here's some links on the topic: (but again, need to check any implications from the Trump tax law changes):

 

https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/family/claiming-a-non-citizen-spouse-and-children-on-your-taxes-/L6VM4IzTQ

 

 

Note, the top of this article had this explanation re the Trump tax law changes:

 

 

Some other links on the topic:

 

https://www.americansabroad.org/nonamerican-spouse-us-tax-implications/

 

https://www.hrblock.com/tax-center/filing/personal-tax-planning/filing-taxes-when-married-to-non-us-citizen/

 

https://www.expattaxcpas.com/us-tax-filing-when-marrying-a-foreigner-in-a-foreign-land/

 

 

Thanks insightful... I keep it separate myself...

[Pib]

Yesterday I did email the Treasury folks to say Never Mind my earlier earlier input to them questioning the no later than filing date on the form, the revision number on the form not changing, etc.,  because I had mistaken Apr 17 or Apr 18 to mean Apr 2017 or Apr 2018 versus meaning 17 Apr or 18 Apr.  However, I still pointed out not changing the version number on the form, providing some explanation on the FinCen website, etc.,  can cause confusion/concern to an individual such as myself trying to confirm they are using the latest-and-greatest form especially when they see the form changing just over a few weeks time frame.

 

But they responded yesterday with an explanation I'm satisfied with....see below.    And it implies they may be updating the revision number, but I expect that will be for next year's form. 

 

I downloaded the most current FBAR form again yesterday which uses the Apr 17 date versus the Apr 18 date that I had downloaded in mid Feb, did my cut and paste from last year's form since last year's form can not be used for this year's submission due to the new Entity block and probably some underlying error checking coding, and I'm now good-to-go again on submitting the form...just need to pull the submit trigger. 

 

But I will  not pull that  FBAR submit trigger until very shortly after I submit my federal tax return as that is my sequence...submit federal return first and then submit FBAR.   A person can submit the FBAR first if desired...but for me, I just want to ensure my more complicated federal return is finalized/submitted before I do the same for my FBAR.

 

Quote

 

I can see the confusion between the two different FBAR reports.

 

The FBAR has been changed on February 8, 2018.  The BSA informed customers and made arrangements informing the customers that the BSA would still allow the older FBARs to be submitted until Feb 7, 2018. 

 

I understand about the version number on the FBAR reports and you are correct about the version of the FBAR report had not being changed.  

 

The BSA is working to make this correction please allow some time for this to be modified.

 

The Date of April 17 on the FBAR is the deadline Date.  This does not mean that it is a report for the year 2017.  

 

The deadline for this year is April 17, 2018.

 

 

[JimGant]

I decided to amend my FBAR (one acct number in error -- tho' doubtful it would ever be discovered) to see if I could use the Adobe Acrobat feature of exporting field data, then importing it into the new FBAR form. Export/import went flawlessly. Great -- thus I figured I would save some typing strokes next year if they once again change the form.

 

I attached the amended PDF to the submit feature and got the following when I pushed 'submit':

Quote

Please correct the errors before resubmitting the form:
The file selected is not a valid Individual FBAR (pdf) file. The upload page can only accept the electronic FBAR report. It will not accept any scanned images, including the previous TD F 90-22.1 report or the 114a Record of Authorization to Electronically File FBARs.Per the instructions, the 114a Record of Authorization to Electronically File FBARs does NOT need to be uploaded to FinCEN.

Somehow importing pdf data invalidated the file. I even used all the drop down boxes to resubmit that data. Nope. Perhaps had I used Acrobat Reader instead of Adobe Acrobat Pro it might have worked..... Anyway, hoped I had found a way to avoid having to retype all the same data next year. No biggy -- just dislike inefficiencies.

[avvocato]

My wife is a Thai but also holds a US Passport (as a naturalized citizen). Will she have to also file a FBAR form if her numerous bank accounts reach that $10,000 threshold (in the aggregate)?  I want to avoid any future potential problems when I pass from the scene and she will be making withdrawals from my IRAs and wanting to get my assets transferred to here accounts (as my beneficiary). She knows she will be paying US taxes on the distributed amounts.

[CMBob]

1 hour ago, avvocato said:

My wife is a Thai but also holds a US Passport (as a naturalized citizen). Will she have to also file a FBAR form if her numerous bank accounts reach that $10,000 threshold (in the aggregate)?  I want to avoid any future potential problems when I pass from the scene and she will be making withdrawals from my IRAs and wanting to get my assets transferred to here accounts (as my beneficiary). She knows she will be paying US taxes on the distributed amounts.

Since she's a US citizen, I'd guess the answer is that she would have to comply with the FBAR filing requirements assuming she meets the threshold; however, obviously the better source for a sure answer is an accountant.  Please note that foreign accounts include a lot more than simple bank accounts (e.g., includes stock accounts, life insurance accounts, etc.). 

[Pib]

2 hours ago, avvocato said:

My wife is a Thai but also holds a US Passport (as a naturalized citizen). Will she have to also file a FBAR form if her numerous bank accounts reach that $10,000 threshold (in the aggregate)?  I want to avoid any future potential problems when I pass from the scene and she will be making withdrawals from my IRAs and wanting to get my assets transferred to here accounts (as my beneficiary). She knows she will be paying US taxes on the distributed amounts.

 

Yes she will if the bank accounts exceed $10K at any time during the calendar year...even for a millisecond.  Just as she'll probably be on the hook for submission of a federal tax return.  

 

FBAR threshold requirements are simple...some cuts and pastes from the FBAR instructions.

 

https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/shared/FBAR Line Item Filing Instructions.pdf

Quote

 

Who Must File an FBAR. A United States person that has a financial interest in or signature authority over foreign financial accounts must file an FBAR if the aggregate value of the foreign financial accounts exceeds $10,000 at any time during the calendar year. See General Definitions, to determine who is a United States person.

 

United States Person. United States person means United States citizens (including minor children); United States residents; entities, including but not limited to, corporations, partnerships, or limited liability 6 companies created or organized in the United States or under the laws of the United States; and trusts or estates formed under the laws of the United States.

 

 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Pib

[Pib]

Well, me and Uncle Sam bonded earlier this week....got both my 2017 FBAR and taxes electronically submitted/accepted. 

 

Regarding the FBAR submission, regardless of how a person feels about the requirement to submit an FBAR, it would be hard for a person to complain about getting notification of whether Uncle Sam received your FBAR not. Or a person ever being able to claim they did submit a FBAR via mail but it must have got lost in the mail.  A FBAR can no longer be submitted by mail...must be submitted electronically.

 

Since a person must submit electronically at the end your submission a pop-up screen appears which provides you Confirmation your FBAR was received.  This Confirmation gives you a receipt tracking number, date/time of submission...and your name, email address, and phone number you included during the submission for contact purposes.    Basically the Confirmation is just the Treasury computer automatically confirming receipt of your FBAR....doesn't say it's correct, valid, etc.,...it's just confirming your FBAR has been received by Treasury data system.  

And at the same instance when checking your email you have another Confirmation repeating the info talked about above but it will have a little more info like saying within 1 to 2 business days the processing of your FBAR should be completed at which time you'll get another response. 

 

I did get "Acknowledgement" response within 1 to 2 business days...actually less than 24 hour later as has occurred in previous year submissions.   The Acknowledgement email just acknowledges receipt of your FBAR and provides an Identifier Number (a.k.a., Control Number)....and it says be sure to save/print this acknowledgement/identifier number.  I'm going to assume this acknowledgement not only assigned the key identifier number but also involved a human eyeballing the form/processing your data into their system.    That is the last you will hear about your FBAR submission unless maybe further evaluation by the boys & girls at Treasury smell something fishy about your submission, foreign accounts, etc. 

 

Anyway, I'm good for another year.

 

 

 

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Just did my FBAR online, pretty painless, now for the 1040, some research needed for it.

 

Mac