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Savannakhet Visa Run. (an Update)


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How many companies besides "Jack and his Golf buddies" are going? I've seen ads for at least 3 Bangkok companies and at least 3 Pattaya companies that all make the trip there. On days when they hit up there on the same day, I wouldn't be surprised to see a swarm.

If they (not sure if you mean the bus company or the consulate), but if you mean the consulate is limiting their numbers to 100 in a day, then the potential for staying over even longer than the current 2 days is quite real.

Still... despite its ever-increasing pitfalls, it remains the closest location for many.

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I know of three companies from BKK : Jack's,QuickVisaRun and ThaiVisaService , I would assume that following figures are close to reality , Jack's 10-20pax mostly Japs, QuickVisaRun 10pax mostly westerner , ThaiVisaService 10pax mostly westerners and phils.

Pattaya have , as far as I know , switched to Vientane , there is a public bus going Rayong-Pattaya-Mukdahan already.

I heard of only one time crowded and that was on 15/16Jan when everyone flooded the place.

Sav had been popular in December as many Phils applied for the "one Day visa" which is a thing of the past.

However still a nice place to stay , but we have been told that ,most likely, they will not issue back to back visas.

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dis Savannakhet bizniz sounds interesting and haveta get a new non-imm 'O' next month...if I went I'd be in my own transport (owned by my wife) accompanied by my wife and one of the brother-in-laws driving, both thai nationals...

after getting my Lao visa would it be possible to simply drive over the bridge into Savannakhet? any possible hassles with the vehicle (the wife's got all the docs)? The bro-in-law doesn't have a passport but does not need a visa...I'm wonderin' if he could pass thru Lao immigration by showing his thai driver's license...

btw...if the visa application process now requires a sleepover this must affect the availability of accommodation in Savannakhet. To those of you that have been recently what can you advise?

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Will give an up-date on Friday...................................going tomorrow with an Irish national. They only gave him 13 days at BKK airport when he came in. We thought it was a mistake, but of course it isn't. It's all the time he had left out of 90 days. Went to Kap Choeng and they told him to go to Savannakhet

So, if you have been in the country for 85 days in total since the 1st October,even if you have been back to your country of origin for a month, it seems you will only get a stamp for 5 days. Then you must leave for the 90 days. Is this right? Or is it up to the man on the door?

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dis Savannakhet bizniz sounds interesting and haveta get a new non-imm 'O' next month...if I went I'd be in my own transport (owned by my wife) accompanied by my wife and one of the brother-in-laws driving, both thai nationals...

after getting my Lao visa would it be possible to simply drive over the bridge into Savannakhet? any possible hassles with the vehicle (the wife's got all the docs)? The bro-in-law doesn't have a passport but does not need a visa...I'm wonderin' if he could pass thru Lao immigration by showing his thai driver's license...

btw...if the visa application process now requires a sleepover this must affect the availability of accommodation in Savannakhet. To those of you that have been recently what can you advise?

Not so easy to take car , you need Laos Insurance etc.

Just take the bus.

Yr brother in Law can apply for a border pass, take 4 photos and some change ,not sure how much exactly.

Plenty of accomodation available.

Application require to be presented before noon. Pick up next day after lunch.

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It was difficult getting a Visa application form, as they are given out by the visa officers only!

cannot these forms be downloaded from the thai immigration website?

No the visa application forms at the Savannakhet Thai COnsulate are all numbered and even the Jack Golf people cannot get these forms before you arrive.

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dis Savannakhet bizniz sounds interesting and haveta get a new non-imm 'O' next month...if I went I'd be in my own transport (owned by my wife) accompanied by my wife and one of the brother-in-laws driving, both thai nationals...

after getting my Lao visa would it be possible to simply drive over the bridge into Savannakhet? any possible hassles with the vehicle (the wife's got all the docs)? The bro-in-law doesn't have a passport but does not need a visa...I'm wonderin' if he could pass thru Lao immigration by showing his thai driver's license...

btw...if the visa application process now requires a sleepover this must affect the availability of accommodation in Savannakhet. To those of you that have been recently what can you advise?

Not so easy to take car , you need Laos Insurance etc.

Just take the bus.

Yr brother in Law can apply for a border pass, take 4 photos and some change ,not sure how much exactly.

Plenty of accomodation available.

Application require to be presented before noon. Pick up next day after lunch.

It is possible to go to Laos by your own vehicle.  It is probably a good idea for you to get one of your brothers in law to call to the Lao Embassy in Bangkok and ask the proceedure.

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As promised an up-date on Muhkdahan-Savannakhet visa run.

We took an Irish national, up as far as the New Friendship Bridge. He then caught a bus from the bridge to Savannakhet. ( there is ample car parking space to leave your car and cross over) He was worried that everything would go pear shaped, but it all went off too easily. We said we'd pick him up back at the bridge at 15.00 the following day, and he got back at 14.30. This confirms the fact that you DO have to wait a day in Savannakhet and your passport is ready the next day. It was all so easy he confirmed. Passport in, fill out the forms, back at 14.00 the next day ( he got there early and they gave him his passport back) Hop on the next bus and Bob's yer uncle, three month tourist visa.

We stayed in the Ploy Palace this time, and it is no-where as good as the Grand Hotel. The breakfast was almost inedible. Met a couple of Thai Visa members in a bar round the corner from the Hotel, but as I am so terrible with names I have forgotten. I think the American that owned the bar was Ralph. Apologies if you read this Ralph????. No doubt you'll both be posting when you read this.

So there it is. A piece of doddle.

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  • 2 months later...
They will only issue one Non-O or one tourist visa per person per year because of their work load.

Thanks for the report, but I can't say I'm surprised.... all the Jack Golf et al vans and buses were certain to cause that in short order.

Edited by sriracha john
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They will only issue one Non-O or one tourist visa per person per year because of their work load.

Thanks for the report, but I can't say I'm surprised.... all the Jack Golf et al vans and buses were certain to cause that in short order.

That being the case, I wonder what promises and representations the various visa run companies are now making in regards obtaining a visa for their clients in Savannakhet?

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BUNCH OF MY FRIEND JUST RETURN FROM

THAI COUNSULATE GENERAL IN SAVANNAKHET.

THEY WERE DENY A VISA. THEY WILL

ONLY ISSUE ONE CLASS "O" NON IMMIGRANT

OR ONE TOURISTS VISA PER PERSON PER

YEAR BECAUSE OF THEIR WORK LOAD.

SO DON'T GO THERE.

If this is true and I am sure it is, its a shame as the people that go there are spreading the load over a number of embassies that are overloaded due to the 90 syndrome many of us have been afflicted with.

I wonder if the Ministry of Foreign Affairs want us to do one tourist visa in each of these embassies per year:

Savannkhet

Vientian

Cambodia

Penang

KL

Yangon or Singapore

This would mean more money from airline travel and would fill the Thai coffers along with the 1000 baht for the tourist visa the embassy collects!

Interesting times ha!

Badbanker

PS All they really need to do is upgrade Savannakhet visa section and they would cope easily.

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Will give an up-date on Friday...................................going tomorrow with an Irish national. They only gave him 13 days at BKK airport when he came in. We thought it was a mistake, but of course it isn't. It's all the time he had left out of 90 days. Went to Kap Choeng and they told him to go to Savannakhet

So, if you have been in the country for 85 days in total since the 1st October,even if you have been back to your country of origin for a month, it seems you will only get a stamp for 5 days. Then you must leave for the 90 days. Is this right? Or is it up to the man on the door?

It is because they fix your 180 days from your first entry date since october 1

If he enters in his next block of 180 days he'll get a full 30 days without visa

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  • 8 months later...

One Important Note - Savannakhet will only give one ‘single entry Non Imm O visa’. When I applied very recently (01-Nov-2007) for a Non-Imm-O visa based on Marriage they issued the visa without issue except before I applied the officer asked is this your first Non Imm O issued from this consulate? I said yes, he said "okay but we will only issue one Non Imm O from here" and told me "not to come back to Savannakhet Consulate for another Non-Imm O Visa in the future". Same trip I met a very upset farang that was denied his Non-Imm O Visa because they had issued him one previously there before but they did issue him a 60 days tourist visa.

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...he said "okay but we will only issue one Non Imm O from here" and told me "not to come back to Savannakhet Consulate for another Non-Imm O Visa in the future".

Did the consular officer offer any rationale for this seemingly arbitrary local policy?

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BUNCH OF MY FRIEND JUST RETURN FROM

THAI COUNSULATE GENERAL IN SAVANNAKHET.

THEY WERE DENY A VISA. THEY WILL

ONLY ISSUE ONE CLASS "O" NON IMMIGRANT

OR ONE TOURISTS VISA PER PERSON PER

YEAR BECAUSE OF THEIR WORK LOAD.

SO DON'T GO THERE.

This was my experience too. Beware, not a place you want to be stuck very long. Also the ATM machines only take Mastercard. No ATM only or Visa cards. Unless you bring BAHT, KIP, or Dollars or have Mastercard you will be without money. I have met a few farangs bitten by this, even one crying wondering the streets.

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...he said "okay but we will only issue one Non Imm O from here" and told me "not to come back to Savannakhet Consulate for another Non-Imm O Visa in the future".

Did the consular officer offer any rationale for this seemingly arbitrary local policy?

Yes do to their work load and the small size of the consulate, and from my personal observations it was a strictly enforced policy.

Edited by gosompoi
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...he said "okay but we will only issue one Non Imm O from here" and told me "not to come back to Savannakhet Consulate for another Non-Imm O Visa in the future".

Did the consular officer offer any rationale for this seemingly arbitrary local policy?

It was issued on a day of the week that ends in "-day" and since "day" rhymes with Laos, it's become their designated policy.

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  • 1 month later...
Rather than make two trips to the 'easy to find" Laos Embassy in "Town in Town" Wang Tong Lang - which I have never heard of - (or pay 200 baht extra and wait) is it not easier just get a Visa -on-Entry at the Laos border?

Certainly for the Vientiane Friendship bridge crossing this is the easy option (and only 35 USD for 30 days for UK Passport holder, but generally more if you pay in baht)).

http://www.bkklaoembassy.com/Map/map.htm

From Victory Monument get bus 92 .. down Lad prow rd .. get off at Big C Lad Prow .. Taxi down Ramkhaeg Haeng (about 40 Baht)

:o

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  • 1 month later...
Laos now seems to be the flavour of the month with regard to Thai visa applications!

This is because it is much closer that Penang and cheaper. The round trip on the train to Penang is now 2500+ baht and is about 21 hours each way. It can only 3,000 on Airasia if you plan you trip carefully.

The first step is to get a Lao Visa. The Lao Embassy is near "Town in Town" Wang Tong Lang and is relatively easy to find. There is a sliding scale of Lao visa prices for nationals of different countries. Most western visa runners pay between 1200 to 1600 baht for a 30 day tourist visa. The standard processing time is 2 days! You submit the visa application at 9am -12am and collect your visa the next day after 2pm. If however you wish to have the 15 minute express visa service you can pay 200 baht more!

Many local travel agents offer a Lao visa service for a couple of hundred baht on top of the normal visa price.

Mukdaharn is a lot closer than Penang at only 642 kms or 8 to 9 hours. Penang is over 1200 kms! The other plus is that the threat of bomb attacks in the south is substantially more than in Lovely Isaan.

There are 3 very comfortable VIP 24 seat (3 seats across not 4) Buses that leave Morchit Bus Station for Mukdaharn every evening roughly hourly from 8pm till, midnight. The VIP 24 seat bus fare is 760 baht each way. If you wish to go even cheaper (500 baht) there are about 10 aircon buses with the usual little legroom available leaving at half hour intervals from 8 pm to Midnight.

You may also go with one of the Visa Run Gang that I noticed where very much in evidence over the past few days!

If you leave Bangkok at 9pm you arrive in Mukdaharn at around 6 am. On arriving at the Bus terminal in Mukdaharn, I was informed that the new Bridge is open and non locals (Thais and Laos are allowed) are no longer allowed to go by boat to Savannekhet.

There is a big sign in the main Mukdaharn bus terminal annoucing the new Thai-Lao International Bus and there is of course a bus leaving at: 8.15, 9.15, 10.15, 11.15, 13.00, 14.00, 15.30, 17.00. The cost is 45 baht each way!

When I arrived at the Mukdaharn Bus terminal I saw a big line up of independant operators, parked as it turned out waiting for a regular bus to take their clientele to Savannakhet. So all of the Jack Golf group and the like got on a bus at 8.00am, 15 mins before the first independant travellers could leave.

We arrived at the Thai Border and relatively quickly stamped out of Thailand and then got on the bus to go to the Lao side. The Lao immigration people ask for 20 baht from each person and it is optional to pay it! Don't pay it and we will all be better off. On arriving at the Lao side we were all surprised to see the group tour people waiting there. Seems that one of the group tour clients had a BIG overstay and it was missed by the Thai's but picked up by the Lao side and this held everyone up.

Remember that all of the people on the international bus are on a vehicle manifest and so if one person gets held up the whole group can get held up!

The independant travellers group left about 5-10 mins before the organised group and this meant we got to the Savannakhet bus station before everyone else. As was expected there were a couple of dozen Tuk tuks waiting to take people to the Thai Embassy. It cost 20 baht per person and they welcomed us to be almost the first group of the day to get to the Thai Embassy.

At this point don't worry about changing baht to Lao Kip! I found the exchange rate to be, 1 Thai baht was between 250-350 kip depending where you changed. The Tuk tuk drivers in Laos are only to happy to take 20 Thai Baht per person to take you on the 10 min ride to the Thai Embassy. We had been at the Thai Embassy for about 10 mins when about 100 of the organised tour group also arrived totally inundating the small room that is the Visa issuance section.

It was difficult getting a Visa application form, as they are given out by the visa officers only!

What you need for a visa:

Tourist Visa

2 passport photos

1 filled out Thai visa application with the photos stuck or stapled to the form

2 photocopies of the front page (your photo page) of your passport signed by you

1,000 Thai baht

(Single Entry Only)

Non Imm Type "O"

2 passport photos

1 filled out Thai visa application with the photos stuck or stapled to the form

2 photocopies of the front page (your photo page) of your passport signed by you

2,000 Thai baht

1 copy of your marriage certificate accompanied by the original certificate

1 copy of your wife's ID card signed by her and you

1 copy of your wife's House Registration Certificate signed by her and you

(Single Entry Only)

I am sure other visas are issued but these are the only 2 types that seemed to be issued at the Savannakhet Thai Embassy on Monday the 15th of January 2007.

It was a real zoo and I have real sympathy for the 3 men that are trying to issue the visas. It was a hel_l of a job for them!

How to make the visa application process happen as painlessly as possible:

Get there early! Stay overnight or be on the first bus from Mukdaharn and you will get a visa application in.

If you wait to get to the embassy 11am you may not get a visa.

Visa applications are not excepted after 12 noon!

At 11.45 they start calling out the minutes left that they will accept applications

Get all of your documents in order and don't the waste officers time.

All around the embassy were signs that said that from the 15th of January it will take 2 working days for you to get your visa issued. After the visa application process, (30 mins if you get there early or 1 and half hours if you are late) I would suggest you find a hotel. I found hotels to be cheap ranging from 100 baht to about 1,000 baht.

Keep in mind that due to the proximity of Thailand to Savannakhet, if you are in a hotel near the banks of the the Mekong River, your Thai cellphone will work just fine. I stayed in the Mekong Hotel which is an old decrepid french villa now a hotel and karoke bar. 200 baht a night fan and hot water!

Up market and where many of the guided tours stay, is the Hoongthip Hotel. Priced at 430 baht to 880 baht for the presidential suite. Sauna, Cable TV, Internet Cafe and good food at a resonable price. The top 2 floors on the river side also pickup Thai cellphones just nicely.

What to do? Have a look at http://www.savannanet.com/ and you will get an idea of more info about Savannakhet. Not much really. I walked about for miles and ate reasonable western food for 50 baht a meal. The best place to start exploring is at the boat landing in the old section of town. This is also only about 200 meters from the Thai embassy. Plenty of reasonable restaurants and ambience on the river at night. Nice and cool and clean air and 12 hours sleep.

Collecting your Visa.

So it is 1.50 pm on that fateful day and you go back to the Thai Embassy. About 50 poeple stand in awe and wait for their receipt number to be called to collect thier passport. CHECK YOUR VISA NOW!!!

With 5 or 6 people get in a Tuk tuk and go back to the Savannekhet bus station and buy your return ticket to Mukdaharn. Get on the bus early or you will end up standing up all the way to the Thai border, till the organised tours get off.

It is advisable to book you return bus ticket to Bangkok before you leave Mukdaharn or you might not get a comforable VIP seat.

Costings for independant travel to go to the Savannakhet Thai Embassy to apply for a visa!

Taxi to and from Morchit 2x150 = 300

VIP Bus ticket 760 baht x 2 = 1520 baht

International bus 45 baht x 2 90

Visa Tourist 1,000 baht

Visa Non imm 2,000 baht

Hotel 500

Food 500

This means it is going to cost you 4,000 baht max to do a vias run

Group tours all inclusive 5,500 to 6,500.

Now if I can get some sleep tonight I will be able to face tomorrow

Badbanker!

Try the Nongkhai/Vientiane run.

By train to Nongkhai

Tuktuk to bridge

Thai stamps

Shuttle to Lao side

Get the Lao visa

Lao stamps

Shuttle to Embassy

Hotel

Next day pick up at Embassy

Shuttle to Lao side

Lao stamps

Shuttle to Thai side

Thai stamps

Tuktuk to station

By train to Krung Thep

Don't forget the market in Lao or the market in Nong Khai

Generally this run is proven, probably cheaper to make, and sleeping in a train is more comfortable as trying to sleep in a bus.

And soon to come: direct train from Krung Thep to the Lao border!

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've just been to Savannakhet for a night, not for a visa run, but the process of getting there is identical.

If you do not want to take the bus, ie do it the expensive and quick way, then the easiest way is flying. I have not done the Nakorn Phanom - Mukdaharn trip but I did the Ubon - Mukdaharn trip recently. I chose Ubon simply because the flight options were so much better.

I got from Ubon to the bridge by using the services of a private taxi that I booked in advance. It was a pickup truck and 1500 baht. All well and good, we had the driver's family in the back for the ride and it was very pleasant.

Coming back was a disaster. I took the bus from Savanakhet bus station to Mukdaharn bus station hoping to find a "rot too". Nothing, nobody could help me. None of the tuktuk drivers had any friends with a car or truck - the usual method of finding a cheap form of private transport. Eventually, I took a tuk tuk back to the bridge where there was a private service, they wanted 3,200 baht for the 2.5 hour journey. How much?

It was a beautiful example of supply and demand. In Bangkok, I regularly rent a rot too for 1,500 a day (in Bangkok) or 1,800 a day (to go outside Bangkok) plus the cost of fuel.

I decided to ask another tuk tuk driver if he had any friends, he did, and 2,500 baht (!) later I was at Ubon airport.

I realised that if you want the fast option, then book and RENT A SELF DRIVE CAR yourself from Ubon airport and DRIVE YOURSELF to the bridge. This is "scalp free" and you know exactly what you are paying for.

Ubon Airport. Drive out of the airport for about 1km until you get to the main road. Turn right and drive for about 2.5 hours and take a right soon after the Tesco Lotus in Mukdaharn to the bridge. All very easy, and it is one road.

To get back, leave the bridge, take a left at the main road and drive to Ubon through the town. Take a left after Robinson (on your right), big signs to the airport and that's it. Could not be easier.

If I do go to Savannakhet again, this is what I will do.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi!

Can any body tell me how you cross the bridge from muk.an to sav.ket if you don't take a bus or pay 3000THB to a mini bus.

I've just been to Savannakhet for a night, not for a visa run, but the process of getting there is identical.

If you do not want to take the bus, ie do it the expensive and quick way, then the easiest way is flying. I have not done the Nakorn Phanom - Mukdaharn trip but I did the Ubon - Mukdaharn trip recently. I chose Ubon simply because the flight options were so much better.

I got from Ubon to the bridge by using the services of a private taxi that I booked in advance. It was a pickup truck and 1500 baht. All well and good, we had the driver's family in the back for the ride and it was very pleasant.

Coming back was a disaster. I took the bus from Savanakhet bus station to Mukdaharn bus station hoping to find a "rot too". Nothing, nobody could help me. None of the tuktuk drivers had any friends with a car or truck - the usual method of finding a cheap form of private transport. Eventually, I took a tuk tuk back to the bridge where there was a private service, they wanted 3,200 baht for the 2.5 hour journey. How much?

It was a beautiful example of supply and demand. In Bangkok, I regularly rent a rot too for 1,500 a day (in Bangkok) or 1,800 a day (to go outside Bangkok) plus the cost of fuel.

I decided to ask another tuk tuk driver if he had any friends, he did, and 2,500 baht (!) later I was at Ubon airport.

I realised that if you want the fast option, then book and RENT A SELF DRIVE CAR yourself from Ubon airport and DRIVE YOURSELF to the bridge. This is "scalp free" and you know exactly what you are paying for.

Ubon Airport. Drive out of the airport for about 1km until you get to the main road. Turn right and drive for about 2.5 hours and take a right soon after the Tesco Lotus in Mukdaharn to the bridge. All very easy, and it is one road.

To get back, leave the bridge, take a left at the main road and drive to Ubon through the town. Take a left after Robinson (on your right), big signs to the airport and that's it. Could not be easier.

If I do go to Savannakhet again, this is what I will do.

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  • 2 months later...

Update as of journey on July 30, 2008:

Bribes

To leave Laos, border guards are at Savannakhet are asking for a 40B bribe. First, get your passport back in your hand. Then ask for a receipt. (Thai: "bai-set"; they understand that). When they tell you no receipt, then you can say in English: "No receipt? No pay!" and then walk on through the gate. Worked for me. Receipts are never issued for bribes because that becomes proof of their shady practices.

Hoongthip Hotel

Previously quoted at 500-800 baht. Now they just charge upper-end, and quote in dollars: $25. Despite the fact I asked if they had hot water and they confirmed yes, there was none. Restaurant in hotel is closed, and lobby internet service is down. However, the rooms were spacious and clean, with decent TV channel choices (CNN, HBO, etc.).

Onward to Hue, Vietnam by Bus

For those who want to travel through to Vietnam. Just did this trip two days ago. The journey is now 5 hours to the Vietnam border, including a half-hour meal stop. At one time in the recent past (2007) the journey was about 3 hours, but already new chuckholes and ruts in the "new" highway require the bus to slow to a crawl in about a hundred locations, which adds to the length of the journey. They know how to build new highways, but still don't know how to maintain them.

From Lao Bao border crossing, figure another 3-4 hours to Hue (through Dong Ha, where you have to transfer buses). For the return journey, only trust one company to ticket you all the way through to Savannakhet (Sinh Cafe Tours, in Hue). Other companies have a pesky tendancy to abandon their travelers at the Viet-Lao border to find their own transportation through Laos, despite the fact you've paid for the entire distance.

Bus service is every other day as follows:

Even calendar days: Savannakhet to Dong Ha / Hue

Odd calendar days: Hue/Dong Ha to Savannakhet

When a month has thirty-one days, there is no service on the 31st day in either direction.

The journey through Laos is a bit lackluster--forests interspersed by a few bamboo shanties. Once you cross into Vietnam, the scenery changes to quite striking mountains and river valleys from Lao Bao to Dong Ha, where it flattens out into rice fields and small towns.

For those who like to splurge once or twice on a trip, I highly recommend the Saigon Morin Hotel in Hue. Five-star service for about $120 USD a night. Not far from the citadel in the old city, and plenty of good nearby restaurants.

Edited by toptuan
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  • 1 month later...
What's the situation with getting a single entry Non Imm B visa at the moment? .. I only see "O's" and Tourist Visas mentioned here.

Thanks

From other topics/thereads the only way to get a non-b is to have a work permit or proof of application for one at any of the nearby consulates.

It appears that a lot of people who got a non-b before have switched to a tourist visa since things got tighter on visas.

Savannakhet has become very unpopular for getting a visa unless you are living close to Mukdaharn its not worth the trouble to get there.

Vientiane is a better choice and has gotten popular.

I live 2 hours from Mukdaharn and because of non-o visa problems was planning a trip to Vientiane instead. But I got things worked out and got a 1 year extension so no more visa runs for me.

Hope this helps.

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  • 1 year later...

My Indonesian maid does the Laos visa run. Her next visa renewal is due 17th February but I am wondering if she can renew her visa a few days early, no more than 5 days early? It suits us better this time around. If someone can let me know ASAP it would be much appreciated, cheers :)

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My Indonesian maid does the Laos visa run. Her next visa renewal is due 17th February but I am wondering if she can renew her visa a few days early, no more than 5 days early? It suits us better this time around. If someone can let me know ASAP it would be much appreciated, cheers :)

I've never heard of a visa renewal. What visa is she on? Normally people go to Laos to get a new visa when the current one runs out. In that case you can go as early as you want to get a new one.

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