Bangkok Air Pollution

[uhuh]

18 hours ago, balo said:

Anyone knows why Indonesia always have cleaner air than the rest of SE-Asia?  I have checked the map daily and its always green or yellow numbers there. 

 

 

Poorer, less industrialized, less cars, and far away from China

[edwardandtubs]

53 minutes ago, uhuh said:

Poorer, less industrialized, less cars, and far away from China

It has the worst air quality in the region, sometimes the world, when the agricultural burning starts.

[lopburi3]

7 hours ago, edwardandtubs said:

It has the worst air quality in the region, sometimes the world, when the agricultural burning starts.

Actually much of that comes to Malaysia and Thailand - being islands there is normally natural wind removing such locally.  Philippines also has the wind advantage.  

[DaveInSukhumvit]

The Bangkok nighttime AQI has improved dramatically over last 3 days Friday-Saturday-Sunday (since the school shutdown).  It is a good sign that government policy can improve air quality dramatically.  AFIK there is no other reason for air to improve except government order.  The BKK weather pattern has been the same (temperature, wind velocity and direction, stagnant air, traffic).  All same.  If anything, there might be a little more driving right now because many people got paycheck at end of month and are driving to celebrate Chinese New Year with family and friends. 

Image 1: Refer to circle highlights below which draw attention to Nighttime AQI (start of day).

Image 2: What has changed?  Inspection Order by Governor Aswin.  Weather has been same.

 

I'm just looking for the correct answer.  I don't mind being wrong.  Corrections and improvements welcome.

I am very happy for the government order, school shutdown, and locals wearing masks.

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by DaveInSukhumvit
Image Reposition

[lopburi3]

The school shutdown would mean less traffic but expect more important were the number of Bangkok residents who chose to leave the city for an extended Chinese New Year Holiday rather than put up with city air.  Getting their vehicles off the streets would also improve conditions.  Construction would also take a nosedive during the New Year period.  Abandon Bangkok and air will normally improve.  

[MaxYakov]

3 hours ago, DaveInSukhumvit said:

The Bangkok nighttime AQI has improved dramatically over last 3 days Friday-Saturday-Sunday (since the school shutdown).  It is a good sign that government policy can improve air quality dramatically.  AFIK there is no other reason for air to improve except government order.  The BKK weather pattern has been the same (temperature, wind velocity and direction, stagnant air, traffic).  All same.  If anything, there might be a little more driving right now because many people got paycheck at end of month and are driving to celebrate Chinese New Year with family and friends. 

Image 1: Refer to circle highlights below which draw attention to Nighttime AQI (start of day).

Image 2: What has changed?  Inspection Order by Governor Aswin.  Weather has been same.

 

I'm just looking for the correct answer.  I don't mind being wrong.  Corrections and improvements welcome.

I am very happy for the government order, school shutdown, and locals wearing masks.

 

 

Thanks. It had been peaking in the late evening an early morning and was in the red for 48 hours straight. The school shutdown may have helped in daytime, but doesn't explain why the unexplained sudden drop at 23:00 Thursday when on prior days it had begin to peak in the late evening and early morning hours - leading to speculation that there was nighttime field burning going on (to help avoid detection). Also, recent NASA FIRMS observations indicates to me a recent reduction fires in the vicinity of Bangkok (second image).

 

I've been tracking and snapshotting both the RTAQ and AirVisual sites and the NASA Fire Management site. The below RTAQ shows the dramatic drop Thursday evening and Friday early morning when it had been peaking earlier in the week during Thursday, which, to me, doesn't necessarily mean that the school closing was the source of the drop (or a reason why it would peak at 2300 or the early morning hours as it had been doing earlier in the week).

 

The below NASA FIRMS snapshot was a "Today" snapshot that was taken at 1430 (Bangkok) hours on 02/02. My best guess is that the FIRMS day starts around 0900 Bangkok because I have FIRMS snapshots at that time showing no fires for both Bangkok and Cambodia. In any event, the below 1430 (Bangkok) snapshot shows relatively sparse fire activity.

 

One thing that is not accounted for is a potential for a meteorological change that could explain the recent drop in PM2.5 particulates (which, BTW, is still showing peaks in the red this weekend that could be attributed to motor vehicle activity).

 

BTW, the RTAQ site is NOT RT (Real Time) because the display often is two hours behind. The AirVisual MAY be real time as well as the NASA FIRMS site, but it's difficult to determine with them (or at least I haven't figured out how to determine how "Real Time" they actually are).

 

Maybe we should get Al Gore and his ilk to do computer modeling to predict the future state of Bangkok's smog (aka haze in the Bangkok Media). ????

 

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by MaxYakov

[Destiny1990]

Folks burning their  fields mandatory jail sentence plus 250 k fine.

 

[DaveInSukhumvit]

4 hours ago, lopburi3 said:

The school shutdown would mean less traffic but expect more important were the number of Bangkok residents who chose to leave the city for an extended Chinese New Year Holiday rather than put up with city air.  Getting their vehicles off the streets would also improve conditions.  Construction would also take a nosedive during the New Year period.  Abandon Bangkok and air will normally improve.  

Sorry for not being clear.  With all due respect, none of these things (school, holiday, vehicles, construction) were significant changes at 3am over last 3 days as shown in highlighted circles.

I have been following the nighttime spike in pollution for many months.  It usually starts after dark and goes down around dawn.  The primary factor seems to be burning.  Many other things are blamed (busses, construction, factories, BTS, cooking, cars) but most of that is idle by 1 am.  Air velocity is usually near zero at night so it isn't Cambodia, or China.

Maybe you know that China stopped importing garbage January 2018.  Nearby countries picked up the slack.  Plastics are used as fuel to burn unsorted waste.  There was an article in paper last year about a container coming in to Thailand with garbage from 30 different countries.

[DaveInSukhumvit]

1 hour ago, MaxYakov said:

Also, recent NASA FIRMS observations indicates to me a recent reduction fires in the vicinity of Bangkok (second image)

Thanks MaxYakov.  I have been tracking the same site and comparing before/after fires.  I agree with the time delay adjustment.  I'm not completely up to speed on that site, so I didn't include those screen shots.

 

[fishism]

Has anyone measured the pm readings in different locations like bts, mrt, shopping malls, river boats, taxis, drinking a beer at hooters etc... I would be interested to know when I need to wear my mask.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[utalkin2me]

Serious question, do you guys ever have the thought that thinking or worrying about this could actually do way more harm to you in the long run than if you never thought of it for even a second? I am not trying to minimize the effects but I find questions like this very interesting. 

[fishism]

29 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Serious question, do you guys ever have the thought that thinking or worrying about this could actually do way more harm to you in the long run than if you never thought of it for even a second? I am not trying to minimize the effects but I find questions like this very interesting. 

Yes, at the beginning when I was first thinking about it I couldn't sleep or breath as I knew I was breathing in the bad stuff, I now think I'm making the air too clean and it has given me a headache. I've still spent the hole day again trying to find a cable to build a detector and buying some other bits and pieces to try and make my DIY solution safe and automated whilst I am out of the country as I cannot rely on the GF to have it on.

 

I noticed that the number of mask wearers was lower today, I counted about 20% usage on the MRT and BTS

[uhuh]

8 hours ago, DaveInSukhumvit said:

Sorry for not being clear.  With all due respect, none of these things (school, holiday, vehicles, construction) were significant changes at 3am over last 3 days as shown in highlighted circles.

I have been following the nighttime spike in pollution for many months.  It usually starts after dark and goes down around dawn.  The primary factor seems to be burning.  Many other things are blamed (busses, construction, factories, BTS, cooking, cars) but most of that is idle by 1 am.  Air velocity is usually near zero at night so it isn't Cambodia, or China.

Agricultural burning is mainly ďone at nighttime,  because there is no wind at night. You can't control agricultural fires if there is. wind. 

 

Very early in this thread we read that agricultural fires account for 50% of Thailand's air pollution.

Edited February 3, 2019 by uhuh

[MaxYakov]

1 hour ago, uhuh said:

Agricultural burning is mainly ďone at nighttime,  because there is no wind at night. You can't control agricultural fires if there is. wind. 

 

Very early in this thread we read that agricultural fires account for 50% of Thailand's air pollution.

If that's the case Bangkok can't win for losing - fires at night/early morning and motor vehicles, industry and cooking the remainder of the day. Here's the NASA FIRMS "Today" image (assuming their day starts around 0900, Bangkok time) at 0240. I've seen it much worse at this time (I think).

 

 

And the corresponding RTAQ at 0100 (image taken at 0250 because RTAQ is not really Real-Time)

 

 

Ignore this. I yet to figure out how to delete unwanted images that I've inserted. Can anyone help?

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by MaxYakov

[DaveInSukhumvit]

12 hours ago, fishism said:

Has anyone measured the pm readings in different locations like bts, mrt, shopping malls, river boats, taxis, drinking a beer at hooters etc... I would be interested to know when I need to wear my mask.

I have done many of these tests.  It is important to know the methods.  I have a retail AQI meter not $2000 meter. So exact numbers are difficult.  Humidity is the biggest challenge.  Moisture in the air reads like PM2.5.  Cold inside buildings (and BTS) have lower moisture and read falsely low AQI.  Nearby an active rice cooker or water boiler reads very high.  Also retail meters need about 1 minute to "settle" for good reading because of the fan/sensor air tube.  I've take 3 meter brands apart with different sensors but the air tube (labyrinth) is all similar design.  Here are the results I found.

• Air inside is the same as air outside with very few exceptions.  EG: You see an air purifier.  (AC units here do not have particle filters & home pro doesn't even sell in store common western-style AC filters)
• Proximity to heavy stop/start traffic shows hot spots - bad for soi dogs & people should wear masks.  BTS platform level is usually a little better because no bus exhaust nozzle near meter (for example)
• When you feel good breeze, the measurements are all the same as air mixes well
• The only time I saw a verified a "hot spot" was near a cooking stand under an awning.
• Parking garages are somewhat higher AQI also.  Air is stagnant and some drivers leave engines running.
• Most modern cars have air filters, including taxis.  Car filters work remarkably well and can produce good results in 5-10 minutes after getting inside.
• Floor levels of condo don't make any difference unless maybe if you are above 30th floor.
• Rain doesn't help reduce AQI more than 5-10%.  Wind helps.

So if you go to Terminal 21, for example, expect same air as outside. If you like to hang out at bar/restaurant/coffee shop near busy street like Sukhumvit - expect some soi dog air.  A block or two away from Sukhumvit, is a little better depending on wind.  If you smell cooking odor, expect higher readings.

[JimmyJ]

7 hours ago, utalkin2me said:

Serious question, do you guys ever have the thought that thinking or worrying about this could actually do way more harm to you in the long run than if you never thought of it for even a second? I am not trying to minimize the effects but I find questions like this very interesting. 

" ...do you guys ever have the thought that thinking or worrying about this could actually do way more harm to you in the long run than if you never thought of it for even a second?"

 

No.

 

"... I find questions like this very interesting."

 

The only reason to ask a foolish question like that is because you are searching for an excuse to put your head in the sand and not deal with reality.

[garyk]

Man I woke up this morning hacking. Looked out side and smoke everywhere... I am in the country, burning off the rice fields is a major issue for me. 

[DaveInSukhumvit]

Air In BKK is pretty good this morning.  AQI is about 85.  This is much better than last week.

But today good air is because we have a nice breeze blowing from the South.  This is Ocean breeze is very different from last week.  All last week in BKK we had a stagnant air inversion (including "good days" school shutdown with Governor inspection order).

It will be interesting to see what happens next. We should anticipate that garbage will not pile up forever.  Good air quality in Thailand is long term issue that requires restructuring (regulations and inspections, Thai awareness and discipline reduce-reuse-recycle + sorting bins, Scrubbers on Waste-To-Energy chimneys, no importing of garbage (like China), Cambodian hydro-power not High-sulphur Australian coal in local power plants, etc.  Pollution Control data says burning is over 60% of AQI issue.

The other 40% is the stuff we all see.  High-sulphur Diesel busses belching, construction, cars & motorbikes, etc.

I have not seen data about the contribution of pollution from neighbors.  Think East wind from Cambodia, NE wind from China, South wind from Indonesia.  Maybe somebody here knows more.  Additions/Improvements/corrections always welcome.

[balo]

Best air for a month here in Pattaya , numbers down to 30++ . 

[MaxYakov]

12 minutes ago, balo said:

Best air for a month here in Pattaya , numbers down to 30++ . 

The farmer-arsonists in Thailand/Cambodia so far seemed to have taken the morning off.

 

NASA FIRMS "Today" reading at 1139 (3 hours, 39 minutes after their 0800 (Bangkok time) daily fire display reset (PartyYeah! is about 200 km west of the Cambodian border - SEA map image, below):

 

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by MaxYakov

[edwardandtubs]

6 hours ago, DaveInSukhumvit said:

I have done many of these tests.  It is important to know the methods.  I have a retail AQI meter not $2000 meter. So exact numbers are difficult.  Humidity is the biggest challenge.  Moisture in the air reads like PM2.5.  

 

Good point. There's a recent study on the Plantower sensor that the Sndway and most of the other budget air quality monitors use that looks into that and concludes:

 

'This study shows that it is important to understand that
the results provided by low-cost particle sensors, such as the
PMS1003, cannot be used to ascertain if air quality standards
are being met.'

 

On the other hand, the Sndway and similar devices come with a humidity sensor built in so the final pm2.5 reading does take into account humidity. I think expecting a $40 sensor to be equivalent to a $2000 monitoring station is wishful thinking though.

 

Download the study here:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.atmos-meas-tech.net/11/4883/2018/amt-11-4883-2018.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi8qeaEvqHgAhVELFAKHbdaAOgQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3CjZwJn5whW3R087lJo12-&cshid=1549262931914

Edited February 4, 2019 by edwardandtubs

[Matt199]

does anyone know where can i buy in bangkok a decent air purifier? tried hatari and xiaomi on lazada but all sold out. I don't know if i get one by going to some offline store like MBK or somewhere. KIndly advice! thanks

[fishism]

does anyone know where can i buy in bangkok a decent air purifier? tried hatari and xiaomi on lazada but all sold out. I don't know if i get one by going to some offline store like MBK or somewhere. KIndly advice! thanks

 

I tried the 2 Xiaomi Mi stores in MBK and they said sometime in March. Don’t recall seeing any others but someone on Facebook claims to have some, I’ll try find the details.

 

“

Pollution in Bangkok is very bad lately. Well good news! We sell purifiers at my dad's store. If you want one, please lemme know. It's sold out so quickly! Bad pollution like this I think we might need one. Special price just for you!!!!!! Lower than the ones at the mall!! Call k. Ning 098-656-2568 or Line ID : tanadya

“

 

Probably sold out though

 

Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[uhuh]

On 2/3/2019 at 5:06 PM, DaveInSukhumvit said:

Maybe you know that China stopped importing garbage January 2018.  Nearby countries picked up the slack.  Plastics are used as fuel to burn unsorted waste.  There was an article in paper last year about a container coming in to Thailand with garbage from 30 different countries.

The Austrian newspaper "Die Presse" ran an article about this yesterday. 

China prohibited importing garbage,  South East Asia - especially Thailand and Malaysia - picked up the slack. 

Trash is imported at Laem Chabang, that explains,  why the air in Pattaya nowadays is just as bad as in Bangkok (and this is a recent phenomenon in Pattaya,  just as it is recent in Bangkok)

[ExpatOilWorker]

Have anyone figured out how to permanently change the SNDWAY's white/red screen set-point?

 

Mine defaults back to 115 micro g/m3 each time it goes to hibernation mode.

[DaveInSukhumvit]

23 hours ago, edwardandtubs said:

On the other hand, the Sndway and similar devices come with a humidity sensor built in so the final pm2.5 reading does take into account humidity. I think expecting a $40 sensor to be equivalent to a $2000 monitoring station is wishful thinking though.

Thanks Khun Tubs.  I know the Sndway unit has humidity measurement.  Do we know if Sndway uses includes estimating algorithm to improve accuracy of AQI?  I don't own Sndway.

Thanks for the pdf study.  I think I have seen this one before but I re-read and saved it this time.

[edwardandtubs]

2 hours ago, DaveInSukhumvit said:

Thanks Khun Tubs.  I know the Sndway unit has humidity measurement.  Do we know if Sndway uses includes estimating algorithm to improve accuracy of AQI?  I don't own Sndway.

Thanks for the pdf study.  I think I have seen this one before but I re-read and saved it this time.

 

It's difficult to improve accuracy just by using an algorithm. As the study says:

 

'An obvious question that arises from this work is whether
it is possible to derive a correction factor for the particle
number and mass concentrations reported by the low-cost
sensors in the presence of high humidity and fog. Our re-
sults show that, once the deliquescence point is exceeded,
the particle number and mass concentrations begin to in-
crease and are not directly related to the absolute value of
the relative humidity.'

 

I've found my Sndway reports higher pm2.5 than the local monitoring station which is only a kilometre away and when I put it near a boiling kettle there's a big spike in the pm2.5 reading so clearly the humidity in Bangkok is giving us readings that are inaccurate.

Edited February 5, 2019 by edwardandtubs

[utalkin2me]

On 2/4/2019 at 7:56 AM, JimmyJ said:

" ...do you guys ever have the thought that thinking or worrying about this could actually do way more harm to you in the long run than if you never thought of it for even a second?"

 

No.

 

"... I find questions like this very interesting."

 

The only reason to ask a foolish question like that is because you are searching for an excuse to put your head in the sand and not deal with reality.

You don't think psychology or the health of your brain can have a greater deleterious effect than some particles in your lungs? That is out of the realm of being possible? 

 

Look, I am not saying who is right, but it is definitely a legit question. 

 

I will at least start you off on a path to a more open mind: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/how-risky-is-it-really/201112/time-worry-about-worrying-too-much

Edited February 5, 2019 by utalkin2me

[DaveInSukhumvit]

7 hours ago, edwardandtubs said:

 

It's difficult to improve accuracy just by using an algorithm. As the study says:

 

'An obvious question that arises from this work is whether
it is possible to derive a correction factor for the particle
number and mass concentrations reported by the low-cost
sensors in the presence of high humidity and fog. Our re-
sults show that, once the deliquescence point is exceeded,
the particle number and mass concentrations begin to in-
crease and are not directly related to the absolute value of
the relative humidity.'

 

I've found my Sndway reports higher pm2.5 than the local monitoring station which is only a kilometre away and when I put it near a boiling kettle there's a big spike in the pm2.5 reading so clearly the humidity in Bangkok is giving us readings that are inaccurate.

Yes I've read the study 2x Khun Tubs.

Just to be clear, neither of us knows if Sndway actually corrects for humidity, right??

You get readings similar to nearby station with Sndway.  I get good readings also.  So both happy with meters.

[manchega]

just in case those that are in denial need a little shove,

 

yes I imagine any of those excuses could be made about air quality readings, humidity etc. etc.

none the less in a country which chooses to publish a rolling average in an attempt to improve the image of the country

they are unable to lie about it when you can see the dust and it obscures the street below your condo as per last Wed..........

the air quality monitors are pretty good, yes you can get spikes due to cooking if you choose to read the monitor then and there and ignore the high dust levels and choose to beleive it is just Thai people cooking.

 

humidity or not Bangkok is polluted 

 

but the cancer rate is not as high as in chonburi, which strangely has the highest rates of cancer in the whole country?

 

go figure, perhaps Bangkok wants to be number 1, the SEA hub of pollution, corruption and cancer victims.

 

go bkkk go, go dictator go,