Australian man victim of violent assault in popular Pattaya bar - report

[uklawyer]

1 hour ago, FolkGuitar said:

mur·der

ˈmərdər/

noun

noun: murder; plural noun: murders

1.

the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

"the stabbing murder of an off-Broadway producer"

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man·slaugh·ter

ˈmanˌslôdər/

noun

noun: manslaughter; plural noun: manslaughters

the crime of killing a human being without malice aforethought, or otherwise in circumstances not amounting to murder.

"the defendant was convicted of manslaughter"

------------------------------------------------------------------

Both are 'homicide.'

The key word to prosecute for murder is "Premeditation."  The police may 'charge' murder, but the courts will prosecute for Manslaughter unless they believe that they can prove premeditation.

 

It doesn't seem as if this man walked into the bar with plans of killing anyone. It happened during the fight.

 

 

 

When you obviously have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, you should really stay quiet.  For future reference, what amounts to murder or manslaughter in any particular jurisdiction is not to be found in a dictionary.  It is established by either case law (precedent), by statutory definition or by a combination of both.  Accordingly, an act that may legally amount to murder in one jurisdiction, may only amount to one or another kind of manslaughter in another.  In some jurisdictions, there are different categories of murder that are defined.

So far as premeditation is concerned, it is very well established in key common law jurisdictions that premeditation can be almost instantaneous.  So, once this victim was knocked to the ground, it is very clear that by then stamping on the head of an unconscious man, the attacker would clearly be undertaking a premeditated act.  The premeditation is just as much premeditation whether it happens in a fraction of a second or is planned a month before.  While I never worked as a criminal lawyer once I had qualified, when I was at law school in England, the test for murder was whether the attacker had an intention to kill or cause grievous bodily harm to the victim, and the victim did in fact die (it used to be the case that death had to occur within a certain amount of time - I think it was a year and a day, although due to medical advances I seem to recall reading that this had been overruled).  Intention could also be inferred if the attacker was found to have been reckless as to whether death or GBH would be caused, as in the leading case in which a man set fire to a hotel and someone he did not know was inside was killed.  As he was deemed to have been reckless as to whether death or GBH was caused and a person was in fact killed, the necessary intention was inferred and he was guilty of murder.

Anyway, the point is when you have no idea what you are talking about stop repeatedly spouting nonsense.  

[newatthis]

31 minutes ago, FolkGuitar said:

 

You're correct. He WAS trying to kill him. But he didn't plan it out beforehand. And THAT is the difference between 'murder' and 'manslaughter'  in the eyes of the law.

Of course that depends on the country. In NSW, murder does occur if your actions show reckless indifference to human life...no intent is necessary.

[bananafish]

Some of the farang who come to stay in this country ARE frightening. 

 

After visiting Thailand for the first time in 2010, I wanted to come back for an extended stay, but was a little worried because most of the farang who lived here I'd met on my first visit were complete head the balls. People who seemed like they were running from something back home, like charges for stomping on someones head in a bar. 

 

Thankfully there are plenty of normal people too. 

[Baerboxer]

35 minutes ago, Media1 said:

oh bla bla get off the  sofa. I spent exactly 28 years training MA.boxing and BJJ..These yanks picked a weak mark. As l said wish I was there's 

God Bless

If you spent 28 years learning martial arts you must've missed the classes where the expert instructors warned against assuming your're Bruce Lee!

 

Did you hear the Japanese analogy that practicing a martial art is akin to boiling a pan of water. Take away the heat and it cools very quickly and goes off the boil? So unless you are still training regularly,  at a high level, all aspects, then quite frankly, your're deluding yourself.

 

There will be some muscle memory left for sure, some balance, some technique, but delivering them powerfully, very quickly and against multiple attackers whose skill levels and physicality you have no idea about? 

 

If you are still training at a senior level, several times a week, and there are some exceptionally good coaches here, then good on'yer. If not, then seriously think about the reality. You don't want to end up another statistic.

 

Stay safe.

 

 

[Media1]

21 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

I agree (assuming you are in a situation that doesn't let you escape easily).
I was always taught to go for the biggest guy first because if you don't, he's going to get you anyways. Also, seeing you go after the biggest guy may make the others pause and if you can make him bleed (i.e. broken nose or busted mouth), the others may think twice about even joining the attack.

After the big guy, you go for the "mouth". The guy that's (usually) doing all the talking and egging everyone else on (while trying to keep a safe distance). His balls are almost always in direct proportion to the number of people he has helping him. Make him bleed and his balls shrivel in a hurry and the mouth stops. That could make the others pause or lose interest altogether as well. 

Of course, nothing ever happens on the street like you train for in the gym/dojo. Too many variables. That's why when you see videos of actual fights they often look ridiculous. 2 (or 3) guys throwing "slap fists" at each other and trying to kick each other in the shins because they can't lift their legs more than 6 inches off the ground.

As for this case, what pretty much everyone needs to keep in mind is that this is THAILAND and no one (in the Thai Justice system) gives a **** what constitutes murder or manslaughter in your home country.
Also, keep in mind that this is THAILAND and they don't have "jury" trials.
And no, the Americans can't just say "drop the charges and give him back to us because we don't think he should go to jail". 
 

yes your stupid to start anything..Avoid all at all costs. Forget ego. If as I do have plenty to loose walk away. I are Thai backed but not Thai. And never will be. This is only if there's no exit period.

[Media1]

2 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

If you spent 28 years learning martial arts you must've missed the classes where the expert instructors warned against assuming your're Bruce Lee!

 

Did you hear the Japanese analogy that practicing a martial art is akin to boiling a pan of water. Take away the heat and it cools very quickly and goes off the boil? So unless you are still training regularly,  at a high level, all aspects, then quite frankly, your're deluding yourself.

 

There will be some muscle memory left for sure, some balance, some technique, but delivering them powerfully, very quickly and against multiple attackers whose skill levels and physicality you have no idea about? 

 

If you are still training at a senior level, several times a week, and there are some exceptionally good coaches here, then good on'yer. If not, then seriously think about the reality. You don't want to end up another statistic.

 

Stay safe.

 

 

lol

[Air Smiles]

57 minutes ago, FolkGuitar said:

 

You're correct. He WAS trying to kill him. But he didn't plan it out beforehand. And THAT is the difference between 'murder' and 'manslaughter'  in the eyes of the law.

 

Ok, let take some examples how the law sees these things:

 

Quote

 

Second-degree murder: any intentional murder with malice aforethought, but is not premeditated or planned.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(United_States_law)#Degrees

 

 

Lets have a look at the UK version:

 

Quote

Murder .....The element of intentionality was originally termed malice aforethought although it required neither malice nor premeditation.

 

Because murder is generally defined in law as an intent to cause serious harm or injury (alone or with others), combined with a death arising from that intention, there are certain circumstances where a death will be treated as murder even if the defendant did not wish to kill the actual victim. This is called "transferred malice", and arises in two common cases:

The defendant intended serious harm to one or more persons, but an unintended other person dies as a result;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_in_English_law

 

Under UK law it can still be murder even if the perpetrator didn't mean to kill, never mind stamping on a person's head 20 times in a row.

 

 

I'm not sure what happened in this particular case would meet the definition of manslaughter under Thai law:

Quote

 

Section 290. Manslaughter

Whoever, causes death to the other person by inflicting injury upon the body of such person without intent to cause death,

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2018 by Air Smiles

[Media1]

Just now, Media1 said:

lol

I train 5 days and never have stopped only due to being sick. weighing 2kg heavier than my fighting weight previously. weighing 84 kg ripped and stronger than in ever been. Some guys drink and bang. My release is the bag and weights. Keep punching one day it may save you.

[Baerboxer]

Just now, Media1 said:

I train 5 days and never have stopped only due to being sick. weighing 2kg heavier than my fighting weight previously. weighing 84 kg ripped and stronger than in ever been. Some guys drink and bang. My release is the bag and weights. Keep punching one day it may save you.

 

Indeed it may. 

 

You do what you can, and as you age, you adapt to what your physical condition allows. 

 

If you've worked in night club security, event security, then you'll be experienced in handling situations like this. If not, then it will be a learning curve.

 

 

 

 

[JRUSA]

1 hour ago, Media1 said:

oh bla bla get off the  sofa. I spent exactly 28 years training MA.boxing and BJJ..These yanks picked a weak mark. As l said wish I was there's 

God Bless

Obviously you haven't read the entire thread..other posts updated the story. The American was by himself, the assie grabbed a bargirl by the neck. The American intervened and the fight started. This according to witnesses.. I'm not dismissing the obvious over reaction of the American, it was completely uncalled for.. and should be taken to court. 

 

[impulse]

1 hour ago, Media1 said:

i go in hard 1st eliminate the weight first. They rest are movement order. And the BJJ man you know is lieing 

  

I don't know him.  I watched his YouTube.

 

But what I do know is that no matter how tough you may be, there's always someone tougher.  And right after flipping off 5 or 6 drunk guys is a bad time to find out that 3 or 4 of them have better training than you do.  A real bad time.

 

[connda]

Well, hopefully his 'buddies' are being held a accomplices for not breaking it up.  I've lived in Thailand too long.  I think the entire world has gone nuts.

[Kevbo]

5 hours ago, tingtongtourist said:

I do agree but i think the only reason alcohol is the most dangerous because it is legal and cheap (here in LOS anyway)

as such, these geezers can pretty much have as much as they want without regulation and no barman here will say "you had enough"

if you got monkey they serve you all night

not like other countries

 

Yes, you would think long term acohol abuse must cause mental illness.

but if other drugs were legal and people could get them anywhere and cheap many would be a lot worse.

 

Is a monkey 500 baht ?

[jesimps]

On 2/11/2018 at 10:50 AM, saakura said:

Oh my God. This is going to be very tough for all our resident thai bashing keyboard warriors. A gang of 5 farangs attacking a weaker person and stomping on his face while he was down!! 

If it'd been Thais all his mates would've waded in with kicks too.

C'mon, it's very rare you get a farang gang attack.

Damned sunshiners.

[Nasrullah]

8 hours ago, maddermax said:

This is serious stuff.  The Police have to find these thugs and put them away otherwise nowhere in Pattaya is safe.  Not good for the tourist figures!

I think you should consider a username change

[peterrabbit]

Now its only a matter of when Soi 6 gets raided and half the bars closed down for 5 years and the bar owners will only have themselves to blame.

Soi 6 has brought Thailand and Pattaya into disrepute and now the Authorities have been handed their excuse to close it down for good.

[Media1]

1 hour ago, JRUSA said:

Obviously you haven't read the entire thread..other posts updated the story. The American was by himself, the assie grabbed a bargirl by the neck. The American intervened and the fight started. This according to witnesses.. I'm not dismissing the obvious over reaction of the American, it was completely uncalled for.. and should be taken to court. 

 

murder is murder. Thais can look after there own yard

[oldlakey]

9 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said:

I'm a journalist and have worked with Thai reporters. Not one of them would last a week in the real world. But what can you expect when from your first day of school you are encouraged not to ask questions, and almost from birth not to challenge those supposedly higher up the social ladder.

Is there a better way to maintain the status quo

[Davmaac]

11 hours ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

I disagree that it could happen to anyone... Certain people put themselves in these situations.

That is why I don't go to bars anymore, I reckon my chances of not getting smashed are better than those that frequent bars on a regular basis !!

You could easily get into a dodgy situation like this anywhere in Pattaya! You could look st some nutter the  'wrong way' whilst walking down the street or even in a Starbucks!

[GTgrizzly]

7 hours ago, Araiwah said:

Seems the Aussie started it all mate. The American should get off with self defence if it really is the case. Needless death and a sad case for all involved nonetheless.

you have to be joking, what a disgusting comment

Yes I believe the aussies guy started it, but stomping on his head 10-15 times while he's out on the ground is far from self defence

[norrska]

2 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

If you spent 28 years learning martial arts you must've missed the classes where the expert instructors warned against assuming your're Bruce Lee!

 

Did you hear the Japanese analogy that practicing a martial art is akin to boiling a pan of water. Take away the heat and it cools very quickly and goes off the boil? So unless you are still training regularly,  at a high level, all aspects, then quite frankly, your're deluding yourself.

 

There will be some muscle memory left for sure, some balance, some technique, but delivering them powerfully, very quickly and against multiple attackers whose skill levels and physicality you have no idea about? 

 

If you are still training at a senior level, several times a week, and there are some exceptionally good coaches here, then good on'yer. If not, then seriously think about the reality. You don't want to end up another statistic.

 

Stay safe.

 

 

at the highest levels hot becomes cold and cold becomes hot...or as Bruce Lee said in Enter the Dragon,

 

My style? You can call it "the art of fighting without fighting".

[norrska]

3 hours ago, Media1 said:

i go in hard 1st eliminate the weight first. They rest are movement order. And the BJJ man you know is lieing 

Indeed, the BJJ guy is trained to go to the ground, so against a mob he is finished.  Steven Seagal seemed to do alright though with some aikido

[NanLaew]

19 minutes ago, norrska said:

Steven Seagal seemed to do alright though with some aikido

...and a whole bunch of stop-go filming with loads of overtime in the cutting room.

[GTgrizzly]

21 minutes ago, hyku1147 said:

Has "'stomping on his head 10-15 times" been proven?

nothing has been proven but quite a few eye witnesses that were there and saw it all seem to say it as it was

Why do some people in here turn into defence lawyers on subjects like this (get a life)

Can you prove he didn't ???

[Easy Come Easy Go]

14 hours ago, cornishcarlos said:

I used to enjoy going to bars when I was in my 20s and 30s... Apart from the occasional glassing, fights were generally 1 on 1 and finished if someone went down.

There are too many news reports like this one these days, stomping on heads !!! Why ? Really, why ??

Now in my mid 40s, I no longer go to bars and am quite happy living the rural life, away from tourist mayhem...

 

RIP to the Aussie, condolences to his family. Hope the American is suitably punished for his reprehensible behavior, if convicted..

I think it has a lot to do with the internet. If you happen to see any street fight or knockout compilation videos online, often you see stomping on heads. People who are likely to get into fights will see such videos for the moats part as they often seek it out anyway. The notion of stomping or kicking heads whilst down enters the consciousness, and it remains there until they are in that very same situation, and react without thinking, especially if drunk. Or at least this is my theory 

[Araiwah]

2 hours ago, GTgrizzly said:

you have to be joking, what a disgusting comment

Yes I believe the aussies guy started it, but stomping on his head 10-15 times while he's out on the ground is far from self defence

I didn't mean he should as in I wanted him to. I meant it as a barb to the Thai justice system. What he did was appalling and he deserves whatever he gets and maybe more.

[Peterw42]

1 hour ago, GTgrizzly said:

nothing has been proven but quite a few eye witnesses that were there and saw it all seem to say it as it was

Why do some people in here turn into defence lawyers on subjects like this (get a life)

Can you prove he didn't ???

As far as I can fathom it was one guy on a facebook post that said the head stomping etc, and its grown from there. There are other witness accounts that say a couple of punches then unconscious etc.

[GTgrizzly]

22 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

As far as I can fathom it was one guy on a facebook post that said the head stomping etc, and its grown from there. There are other witness accounts that say a couple of punches then unconscious etc.

Don't really know mate

I got all my info from aussies TV news

[Air Smiles]

22 hours ago, blankagain said:

 I was a witness to it on wednesday. I'm going to court tomorrow to see if it was the same guy and my gut tells me his behaviour is consistent with this POS. 

 

What did you see?

[oldlakey]

4 minutes ago, Air Smiles said:

 

What did you see?

Read the whole FRED 5555555