Gun lobby pushes back on Trump's gun plans after Florida shooting

[Slip]

1 hour ago, riclag said:

This idea of fortifying schools should be a first priority,ID badges,metal detectors and one entry is a good start to safe guarding all schools.In the USA  there are many portable police departments such as police substations in malls.These sub stations can easily be put in place in High schools  and be filled with uniform armed police .Police work behind a desk in many cities 24-7, why not put one or two in a sub station in junior and senior high schools.There won't be any extra burden on school and city budgets and they would replace the idea of trained school teachers.

And you are happy to doom your generation's children and grandchildren to this future hellscape of a childhood just to satisfy a tiny number of gun fetishists who don't care who gets slaughtered as long as they have their guns to salivate over?  The mind truly boggles.

[riclag]

1 hour ago, Becker said:

Or we could do it the easy and logical way and just impose strict gun control measures and outlaw weapons of war like the AR-15.

 What your suggesting would be the ultimate goal besides total elimination of guns . To achieve goals one much have a plan and take  small steps.It seems to me the first goal would be to secure and protect a facility and then go systematically through the steps to achieve the ultimate goal

Edited February 26, 2018 by riclag

[dunroaming]

1 minute ago, riclag said:

 What your suggesting would be the ultimate goal . To achieve goals one much have a plan and take  small steps.It seems to me the first goal would be to secure and protect a facility and then go systematically through the steps to achieve the ultimate goal

forgive me for gatecrashing.  Surely to achieve any goal you have to move in one direction, towards that goal.  I feel that you are going in the other direction completely with your strategy.

[Andaman Al]

7 minutes ago, riclag said:

 What your suggesting would be the ultimate goal . To achieve goals one much have a plan and take  small steps.It seems to me the first goal would be to secure and protect a facility and then go systematically through the steps to achieve the ultimate goal

The way to the goal is easy. A six month amnesty for all semi automatic weapons to be handed in, after that owners will pick up 3 year jail sentences and/or fines commensurate with the crime. It could start on Monday - if politicians would stop whoring themselves to the NRA (I assume the NRA is a religion as it's tax exempt- it certainly has as many rabid apologists as any religion).  Seems schools would be a lot safer by the end of next week,  than waiting 5 years to get a training system in place for teachers to learn how to shoot - in a dynamic and hostile environment!  without wiping out the school kids themselves. Can you imagine what will happen when law enforcement and SWAT teams pitch up to a school with 100 teachers who are crapping their pants and ready to shoot anything that moves, it truly is total madness to even suggest that teachers should be armed.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Andaman Al

[Mansell]

NRA.......No Rational Attitudes......No Respect At all......No Religions Apply.......Nothing Reasonable Attempted.......Nobody Reasonable Allowed.......Nothing Rational Allowed.

[Andaman Al]

2 minutes ago, Mansell said:

NRA.......No Rational Attitudes......No Respect At all......No Religions Apply.......Nothing Reasonable Attempted.......Nobody Reasonable Allowed.......Nothing Rational Allowed.

Neurologically Retarded A**h***s. 

[Mansell]

1 minute ago, Andaman Al said:

Neurologically Retarded A**h***s. 

I like it.

[Mansell]

Just now, Mansell said:

I like it.

 

2 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

Neurologically Retarded A**h***s. 

 

Just now, Mansell said:

I like it.

And I am going to steal it.

[Andaman Al]

Just now, Mansell said:

 

 

And I am going to steal it.

Steal away and just make sure it is a phrase brought into common use. There are around 10 million American school kids who will help 

[riclag]

28 minutes ago, Slip said:

And you are happy to doom your generation's children and grandchildren to this future hellscape of a childhood just to satisfy a tiny number of gun fetishists who don't care who gets slaughtered as long as they have their guns to salivate over?  The mind truly boggles.

Where is morality in America. There was a time in America (70's) that you could get a Sears catalog and buy a wide assortment of weapons.There was once a time you could walk out of a  department store and not have bells and whistles be set off. There was a time when people didn't have to lock their house doors. There was a time you could safely leave  your car windows open . There was a time when children could have Halloween trick or treat house to house without parents accompanying them.There was a time when you could just go to the gate of a airport without going through all the security.

Now we live in a generation that has a new term to deal with SOFT TARGET.

I made a suggestion that is the simplest thing to do to start to achieve the Ultimate goal, post 54. 

Edited February 26, 2018 by riclag

[riclag]

19 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

The way to the goal is easy. A six month amnesty for all semi automatic weapons to be handed in, after that owners will pick up 3 year jail sentences and/or fines commensurate with the crime. It could start on Monday - if politicians would stop whoring themselves to the NRA (I assume the NRA is a religion as it's tax exempt- it certainly has as many rabid apologists as any religion).  Seems schools would be a lot safer by the end of next week,  than waiting 5 years to get a training system in place for teachers to learn how to shoot - in a dynamic and hostile environment!  without wiping out the school kids themselves. Can you imagine what will happen when law enforcement and SWAT teams pitch up to a school with 100 teachers who are crapping their pants and ready to shoot anything that moves, it truly is total madness to even suggest that teachers should be armed.

No need for teachers to be armed 

[IAMHERE]

9 hours ago, mike324 said:

Over 95% of the guns made in the USA are sold domestically, raising the minimum age would mean less guns sold. Hence the NRA and gun manufactures do not support raising the minimum age.

Not so sure about this, more unsold guns would reduce the price spuring consumption. 

[IAMHERE]

So change the constitution, it only takes  2/3 rds  of the states to vote down the 2nd amendment.  Well you could go around the constitution to take away gun rights but isn't that one big reason people think they need guns?

[riclag]

27 minutes ago, IAMHERE said:

So change the constitution, it only takes  2/3 rds  of the states to vote down the 2nd amendment.  Well you could go around the constitution to take away gun rights but isn't that one big reason people think they need guns?

 

So what do you do in the mean time to protect schools?

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by riclag

[riclag]

1 hour ago, Andaman Al said:

The way to the goal is easy. A six month amnesty for all semi automatic weapons to be handed in, after that owners will pick up 3 year jail sentences and/or fines commensurate with the crime. It could start on Monday - if politicians would stop whoring themselves to the NRA (I assume the NRA is a religion as it's tax exempt- it certainly has as many rabid apologists as any religion).  Seems schools would be a lot safer by the end of next week,  than waiting 5 years to get a training system in place for teachers to learn how to shoot - in a dynamic and hostile environment!  without wiping out the school kids themselves. Can you imagine what will happen when law enforcement and SWAT teams pitch up to a school with 100 teachers who are crapping their pants and ready to shoot anything that moves, it truly is total madness to even suggest that teachers should be armed.

6 months ok what about the schools,now! How will schools be safer by next week.What is your solution? How will you protect the schools by next week ,not 6 months from now

Edited February 26, 2018 by riclag

[Srikcir]

27 minutes ago, IAMHERE said:

it only takes  2/3 rds  of the states to vote down the 2nd amendment.

Nope. In your scenario takes 2/3's of the legislatures of the States to call for a Constitutional Convention; results of Convention must then be ratified by three-fourths (38 of 50?) of the legislatures of the States. Never used.

https://www.usconstitution.net/constam.html

https://study.com/academy/lesson/the-process-of-amending-the-constitution.html

 

[boomerangutang]

 

10 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

You may not agree that Trump is draining the swamp, and he surely isn't; but he sure does shine a spotlight on all the swamp dwellers, intentionally or not.  And that's not such a bad thing. It's up to the people to do the rest.

Ok, I'll come down and use Trump's analogy.  Trump talked about 'draining the swamp' ...but what is 'the swamp'?  Washington's institutions?  NIH? HUD? PBS? NASA? NPR? Big Bird? CIA, FBI, NOAA, Veteran's Admin? Bethesda Naval Hospital? ....or a hundred more....? 

Trump is so famously foolish, that he's helplessly subjective.  Not only that, he changes his views on things like a flickering neon light.  There are some smart, wise, knowledgable people in D.C. who are endeavoring to improve things.   None of them are in the WH or the Republican Party.  

 

9 hours ago, F4UCorsair said:

May make sense. A government arms its police and military against threats, and of course I know the difference.  With good training, I think it's an idea worth exploring, and just may provide a sufficient deterrent to dissuade some lunatics. Who knows? 

People who carry out school shootings, or any shottings against unarmed others, are cowards, and if they know there will be resistance they just may not go ahead.

It may not be practical, but unless it's canvassed, we'll never know. 

The poster above asks:  With good training, I think it's an idea worth exploring, and just may provide a sufficient deterrent to dissuade some lunatics. Who knows? 

 

Boomer responds:  I know.  Yes, perhaps a small % of killers will not try to lay harm.  But lunatics aren't sensible, and many are suicidal, ....so trying to appeal to any smarts they may have, or sense of personal survival is howling at the moon.   

 

The recent killer knew there was an armed guard at that school, and went ahead anyway.  The armed guard was ineffectual.  Same for the first 3 cops on the scene.  All 4 of those men were trained in weapons use.   None had any stopping effect on the shooter.

 

That alone shows clearly that Trump's and the NRA's plan to arm teachers is not going to help.

 

As for who or what may thwart a person or group intent on taking military weapons into a place full of innocents and opening fire, ......that's such an open-ended topic - there are over fifty billion possible scenarios.  A piece of ceiling could fall down and kill a gunman. 

 

One basic component which needs to happen, is to ban all military-grade weapons from non-military, non-police people in the USA.  It's probably impossible because, as I wrote earlier, trying to take certain guns away from gun addicts will entail bloodshed - of biblical proportions.  

 

[wabothai]

3 hours ago, Andaman Al said:

Neurologically Retarded A**h***s. 

'Non-sensical Rifle Addiction'  (Lubach)

[lannarebirth]

3 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

 

Ok, I'll come down and use Trump's analogy.  Trump talked about 'draining the swamp' ...but what is 'the swamp'?  Washington's institutions?  NIH? HUD? PBS? NASA? NPR? Big Bird? CIA, FBI, NOAA, Veteran's Admin? Bethesda Naval Hospital? ....or a hundred more....? 

Trump is so famously foolish, that he's helplessly subjective.  Not only that, he changes his views on things like a flickering neon light.  There are some smart, wise, knowledgable people in D.C. who are endeavoring to improve things.   None of them are in the WH or the Republican Party.  

I don't think any of those things are "the swamp". Those are all government institutions. When I think of the swamp I think of non government institutions (of which there are hundreds and hundreds) that throw money at politicians to curry favor for their special interest at the expense of the public good and treasury.

Government institutions could be part of the swamp if they exist merely to perpetuate their own organization, which many many bureaucracies do.

3 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

The poster above asks:  With good training, I think it's an idea worth exploring, and just may provide a sufficient deterrent to dissuade some lunatics. Who knows? 

 

Boomer responds:  I know.  Yes, perhaps a small % of killers will not try to lay harm.  But lunatics aren't sensible, and many are suicidal, ....so trying to appeal to any smarts they may have, or sense of personal survival is howling at the moon.   

 

The recent killer knew there was an armed guard at that school, and went ahead anyway.  The armed guard was ineffectual.  Same for the first 3 cops on the scene.  All 4 of those men were trained in weapons use.   None had any stopping effect on the shooter.

 

That alone shows clearly that Trump's and the NRA's plan to arm teachers is not going to help.

 

As for who or what may thwart a person or group intent on taking military weapons into a place full of innocents and opening fire, ......that's such an open-ended topic - there are over fifty billion possible scenarios.  A piece of ceiling could fall down and kill a gunman. 

 

One basic component which needs to happen, is to ban all military-grade weapons from non-military, non-police people in the USA.  It's probably impossible because, as I wrote earlier, trying to take certain guns away from gun addicts will entail bloodshed - of biblical proportions.  

 

 

Actually it is the military grade weapons that have the strongest protection under the 2nd amendment if one buys into the "militia" angle. I'd leave that in there and find a way to move them someplace safer than people's homes. Handguns have no Constitutional protection at all. As any military person will tell you handguns have no use in combat. They should go after those first. I think that may be accomplished without  a Constitutional Convention, assuming court challanges fall the right way.

[Air Smiles]

Quote

Donald Trump has said he would have rushed inside the Florida high school where 17 people were shot dead even if he wasn't armed.

 

 

Quote

 

Back in 1968, at the age of 22, Donald J. Trump seemed the picture of health.

 

He stood 6 feet 2 inches with an athletic build; had played football, tennis and squash; and was taking up golf. His medical history was unblemished, aside from a routine appendectomy when he was 10.

But after he graduated from college in the spring of 1968, making him eligible to be drafted and sent to Vietnam, he produced a sick note from his doctor.

 

The sick note was one of five Mr. Trump produced during Vietnam.

 

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Air Smiles

[joecoolfrog]

9 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

On the item of no cigar, I'm just finishing up a cigar and a tall Leo before the skeeters eat me. Looks like I win.

And the children keep on dying...yep nice win !

[Andaman Al]

 

 

Quote

Donald Trump has said he would have rushed inside the Florida high school where 17 people were shot dead even if he wasn't armed.

The US president said an armed police officer, who remained outside the building during the massacre on Feb 14, had "choked".

Speaking to a group of 39 state governors at the White House, Mr Trump said: "I really believe, you don’t know until you’re tested, but I really believe I’d run in even if I didn’t have a weapon."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/26/donald-trump-says-would-have-run-florida-shooting-without-weapon/

 

I do not know how else to put it - this man is such a complete and utter dick it is beyond comprehension. Do you Trump supporters feel proud of him here? "You never know until your tested" - yup like he never even bothered turning up for the test when his peer group were patrolling the paddy fields and the jungle in Vietnam. He turned and ran four times (even with bone spurs). This man is a grade A oxygen thief. God help us. The only thing I am sorry about is that he doesn't run in unarmed against a lunatic with a semi automatic weapon, it would save us all a lot more pain to come.

 

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Andaman Al

[lannarebirth]

1 hour ago, Andaman Al said:

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/26/donald-trump-says-would-have-run-florida-shooting-without-weapon/

 

I do not know how else to put it - this man is such a complete and utter dick it is beyond comprehension. Do you Trump supporters feel proud of him here? "You never know until your tested" - yup like he never even bothered turning up for the test when his peer group were patrolling the paddy fields and the jungle in Vietnam. He turned and ran four times (even with bone spurs). This man is a grade A oxygen thief. God help us. The only thing I am sorry about is that he doesn't run in unarmed against a lunatic with a semi automatic weapon, it would save us all a lot more pain to come.

 

 

 

I think both the people who let this guy get under their skin and the people who choose to defend his nonsense are probably going to age prematurely. Better to have a certain detachment and enjoy the theater of the absurd spectacle that it is.

[joecoolfrog]

1 hour ago, lannarebirth said:

 

I think both the people who let this guy get under their skin and the people who choose to defend his nonsense are probably going to age prematurely. Better to have a certain detachment and enjoy the theater of the absurd spectacle that it is.

You are probably right but its hard sometimes to overlook such sickening hypocrisy. I doubt even the firmest Trump supporters would feel good about defending this coward passing judgement on others.

[steven100]

This type of attitude is the same world over. It's all about money, power & greed.  The NRA is very powerful and has big dollars. Look at multinational corporations like Shell in Niger,  making billions of dollars from the oil in the Niger delta and promised that millions would go back into the local communities, when in fact very little has gone back into the local villages, and they continue to make millions of dollars daily while destroying the environment .... it's greed and $$$.  Same with Exon, same with Banks worldwide, same with Pharmaceuticals .... it's all greed  !!

[ballpoint]

9 hours ago, wabothai said:

'Non-sensical Rifle Addiction'  (Lubach)

Nutters Running Around (with guns)

[Srikcir]

1 hour ago, steven100 said:

promised that millions would go back into the local communities, when in fact very little has gone back into the local villages

Wouldn't that be controlled by the Nigerian government?

Shell's largest contributions are through the taxes and royalties they pay to the government. It is the government who decides funding priorities and likely local communities are not its top priority unless there's a political or financial benefit.

[spidermike007]

Now Trump is experiencing severe amnesia. He cannot recall getting five deferments to serve in the military, when his country called on him, to put himself in harms way. And he claims he would have run into the school in Parkland, Florida whether he was armed or not? He is a coward. He would pee in his pants, if he was ever faced with a loaded gun pointed at him. He was too afraid of fighting in Vietnam. Now all of a sudden he has a burst of courage? Just another lie, from the deflector in chief. He is so accustomed to saying whatever he wants, and making up alternative realities, in his own mind, he sees himself as a superhero. Dastardly Don to the rescue! 

 

"I really believe I'd run in there even if I didn't have a weapon," Mr Trump told a group of state governors gathered at the White House.

Mr Trump also said it was "disgusting" that officers reportedly did not confront the suspect on 14 February.

The massacre was the second-deadliest ever shooting at a US school.

"I think most of the people in this room would have done that, too," said Mr Trump on Monday of his assertion that he would have rushed into the school.

He added: "You never know until you're tested."

 

Well, you were tested Don. Back when you were drafted. You failed the test miserably. Five times you failed. Five times! Five deferments. Four major bankruptcies. Almost poetic, but certainly the definition of a man, who is a failure. 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/43202075

 

Tiny DT- Continuing the trend of decreasing the quality of life, for the average America. Moving America backwards. Re-populating the swamp with his own brand of alligators and crocodiles. The art of I cannot make a deal to save my life!

 

 

Edited February 27, 2018 by spidermike007

[Srikcir]

On 2/26/2018 at 6:22 AM, webfact said:

The powerful gun lobby group does not support Trump's proposals to raise the age limit for buying certain types of guns

Now this posted Feb 26, 2018:
The White House appeared Monday to back away slightly from President Donald Trump’s previous backing of age limits for the purchase of some firearms.

• During an hour-long event earlier Monday with the nation’s governors, the president mentioned other things he supports — including background check system changes and arming school employees — but not age limits for certain kinds of firearms.
• He did not mention it during his lengthy and wide-ranging remarks at CPAC.

https://www.rollcall.com/news/politics/white-house-inches-away-age-limits-gun-buys

Meanwhile both Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell remain completely silent on ANY gun control legislation. It may ultimately depend on each state to set higher age limits for gun buys. But with Mid-term election in November, the NRA no doubt will be in full force with campaign contributions to chase away any gun legislation candidates.

[lannarebirth]

9 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

I don't think any of those things are "the swamp". Those are all government institutions. When I think of the swamp I think of non government institutions (of which there are hundreds and hundreds) that throw money at politicians to curry favor for their special interest at the expense of the public good and treasury.

Government institutions could be part of the swamp if they exist merely to perpetuate their own organization, which many many bureaucracies do.

 

Actually it is the military grade weapons that have the strongest protection under the 2nd amendment if one buys into the "militia" angle. I'd leave that in there and find a way to move them someplace safer than people's homes. Handguns have no Constitutional protection at all. As any military person will tell you handguns have no use in combat. They should go after those first. I think that may be accomplished without  a Constitutional Convention, assuming court challanges fall the right way.

 

Actually the first thing I'd go after in schools is smartphones. That will save some lives and no one's got a right to have one. Should be easy, but the kids will raise hell about it.