Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[transam]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

We never had a negotiation position other than " You give us everything we want - 'cos we're British and deserve it"

Says a non British bloke who probably fears being taxed more to fill in the huge financial gap left by the UK departure..

[soalbundy]

14 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

First the Sun, now the Independent. This thread is awash with good humour this morning; what a blessing, bring on the Guardian someone please

It's only news with some opinion thrown in, the Daily excess is on your side, read that. Somewhere on the sidelines in the future the end result is waiting for the kick off, some time after 2021 if the Telegraph is to be believed and then all the news, opinions and emotions will be just the dried tears of yesterday.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

18 minutes ago, tebee said:

We never had a negotiation position other than " You give us everything we want - 'cos we're British and deserve it"

You have utilised quotation marks, but have failed to credit the source of your quote; am I safe to assume that the quote is from the Guardian, and if not, would you please inform me of the source ….. thank you kindly ??✌️?

[soalbundy]

12 minutes ago, transam said:

Says a non British bloke who probably fears being taxed more to fill in the huge financial gap left by the UK departure..

The departure seems to keep getting delayed, perhaps the train won't leave the station at all. 'Britain will tell the EU it is prepared to stay tied to the customs union beyond 2021' Telegraph, today.

[transam]

1 minute ago, soalbundy said:

The departure seems to keep getting delayed, perhaps the train won't leave the station at all. 'Britain will tell the EU it is prepared to stay tied to the customs union beyond 2021' Telegraph, today.

"Rome wasn't built in a day"......

[tebee]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

Says a non British bloke who probably fears being taxed more to fill in the huge financial gap left by the UK departure..

I'm British but pay my taxes in France as I live there - or at least I would If I earned enough to pay any ! 

 

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, transam said:

"Rome wasn't built in a day"......

and it wasn't destroyed in a day either in fact before its demise it expanded, the Byzantine

[The Renegade]

Quote

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

 

I keep reading this over and over, trying desperately to find all these Hard Brexits, Soft Brexits, Trade Issues, Border Issues, and every other issue that remainers keep throwing about like rice at a Chinese wedding.

 

Paragraph 3 keeps leaping out at me. '' The treaties cease to apply from the date of the withdrawal agreement or '' 

 

Time to focus the minds of the EU and tell them, very clearly, that 29 March 2019 it is all over. 

[tebee]

18 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

You have utilised quotation marks, but have failed to credit the source of your quote; am I safe to assume that the quote is from the Guardian, and if not, would you please inform me of the source ….. thank you kindly ??✌️?

I was quoting the words of a great wise sage and intellectual....... 

[Kwasaki]

32 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Time to focus the minds of the EU and tell them, very clearly, that 29 March 2019 it is all over. 

The problem is the people in charge of UK haven't got the balls.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

I was quoting the words of a great wise sage and intellectual....... 

“I was quoting the words of a great wise sage and intellectual”

 

It would appear that you were not; what you were doing was repeating a response that you made to him (David Allen Green, aka Jack of Kent)

 

So it was not a quotation, but your own words disguised as one; a cunning stunt indeed. However, at least all is now clear, thank you for the clarification, I am obliged to you

[soalbundy]

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

 

I keep reading this over and over, trying desperately to find all these Hard Brexits, Soft Brexits, Trade Issues, Border Issues, and every other issue that remainers keep throwing about like rice at a Chinese wedding.

 

Paragraph 3 keeps leaping out at me. '' The treaties cease to apply from the date of the withdrawal agreement or '' 

 

Time to focus the minds of the EU and tell them, very clearly, that 29 March 2019 it is all over. 

They know that, it's the UK asking for cherries like extra time in the customs union, the EU have vented their frustration many times already that the UK has no clear concept of what they want except for gimme,gimme,gimme.

[The Renegade]

16 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

They know that, it's the UK asking for cherries like extra time in the customs union, the EU have vented their frustration many times already that the UK has no clear concept of what they want except for gimme,gimme,gimme.

I believe that the first 3 gimme, gimme, gimmies came directly from the EU.

 

1. Gimme some money.

2. Gimme EU Citizens rights.

3. Gimme an Irish Border.

 

The EU have no moral high ground on cherry picking or Gimme, Gimme, Gimmies.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

Anyone unconcerned about the situation in Italy should read this article just published in The Wall Street Journal …… there is a similar article published overnight in the Times Online, but you need to be a subscriber to read it.

 

QUOTE

“Investors Dump Italian Bonds and Bank Stocks on Euro Worries”

 

“Political uncertainty returned to Italy, as investors dumped Italian bonds and bank stocks on Wednesday, worried that a new antiestablishment government has increased chances of the country exiting the euro.

Italian markets had been calm for months, even as a political pairing that investors once considered a worst-case scenario edged toward becoming the new government. On Sunday, the populist 5 Star Movement and anti-immigration League party reached a broad agreement for that new government.

On Tuesday, Huffington Post Italia posted a draft government program that proposed the introduction of procedures within the eurozone to allow countries to quit the euro and said they would ask the European Central Bank to write off €250 billion ($296 billion) of government debt.

The market “was running under the understanding that 5 Star had dropped its antieuro rhetoric.

 

The document [on Tuesday] was a cold shower in that regard,” said  Giada Giani, Italian economist at Citi.

“Even discussing the idea of a parallel currency or figuring out a coordinated exit from the monetary union, the very fact that it’s put in a document suggests there are very strong forces pushing in that direction,” she added”

 

The FTSE MIB, Italy’s benchmark equity index, fell 2.3% on Wednesday. Major banks led the decline, with Unicredit, Banca Mediolanum and Banco BPM each down between 4% and 5.4%.

“With a public debt of 130% of GDP it remains quite a risk, especially with these parties, because they won’t step forward with reforms. They might even step back,” said Fabrizio Quirighetti, co-head of multiasset at SYZ Asset Management.

“The risk premium [on Italian debt] is very small compared to the damage you might take,” he added”

 

P.S German and French media have been trying to keep this quiet,  but the concerns have been there for some time and are starting to manifest themselves in the markets. I also cannot find anything about this very important news on the BBC website (*∆°)

Edited May 17, 2018 by Eloquent pilgrim

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Anyone unconcerned about the situation in Italy should read this article just published in The Wall Street Journal …… there is a similar article published overnight in the Times Online, but you need to be a subscriber to read it.

 

QUOTE

“Investors Dump Italian Bonds and Bank Stocks on Euro Worries”

 

“Political uncertainty returned to Italy, as investors dumped Italian bonds and bank stocks on Wednesday, worried that a new antiestablishment government has increased chances of the country exiting the euro.

Italian markets had been calm for months, even as a political pairing that investors once considered a worst-case scenario edged toward becoming the new government. On Sunday, the populist 5 Star Movement and anti-immigration League party reached a broad agreement for that new government.

On Tuesday, Huffington Post Italia posted a draft government program that proposed the introduction of procedures within the eurozone to allow countries to quit the euro and said they would ask the European Central Bank to write off €250 billion ($296 billion) of government debt.

The market “was running under the understanding that 5 Star had dropped its antieuro rhetoric.

 

The document [on Tuesday] was a cold shower in that regard,” said  Giada Giani, Italian economist at Citi.

“Even discussing the idea of a parallel currency or figuring out a coordinated exit from the monetary union, the very fact that it’s put in a document suggests there are very strong forces pushing in that direction,” she added”

 

The FTSE MIB, Italy’s benchmark equity index, fell 2.3% on Wednesday. Major banks led the decline, with Unicredit, Banca Mediolanum and Banco BPM each down between 4% and 5.4%.

“With a public debt of 130% of GDP it remains quite a risk, especially with these parties, because they won’t step forward with reforms. They might even step back,” said Fabrizio Quirighetti, co-head of multiasset at SYZ Asset Management.

“The risk premium [on Italian debt] is very small compared to the damage you might take,” he added”

That document is already being reworked, according to an article in Der Spiegel, the leaked document was old and in fact has already been reworked removing many of the controversial paragraphs, it is being reworked again. The authors have been hit by reality, ideology vs markets. The end version will no doubt be more market friendly with a few defiant dummy throwing phrases.

[oldhippy]

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

The problem is the people in charge of UK haven't got the balls.

Please remind me: Who exactly is in charge of the UK?

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, oldhippy said:

Please remind me: Who exactly is in charge of the UK?

She's been ovary-estimated

[tebee]

1 hour ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

“I was quoting the words of a great wise sage and intellectual”

 

It would appear that you were not; what you were doing was repeating a response that you made to him (David Allen Green, aka Jack of Kent)

 

So it was not a quotation, but your own words disguised as one; a cunning stunt indeed. However, at least all is now clear, thank you for the clarification, I am obliged to you

I'm sorry the subilies of English satire flew over your head somewhat there, but maybe it  only to be expected of a Brexiter.

 

I was ask to show who I was quoting, which I did, showing it was in fact, my alter-ego. The David Allen Green bit I just left in to show the context in which the statement was made.

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Please remind me: Who exactly is in charge of the UK?

Here's one of those who call the shots.

 

[Grouse]

29 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Anyone unconcerned about the situation in Italy should read this article just published in The Wall Street Journal …… there is a similar article published overnight in the Times Online, but you need to be a subscriber to read it.

 

QUOTE

“Investors Dump Italian Bonds and Bank Stocks on Euro Worries”

 

“Political uncertainty returned to Italy, as investors dumped Italian bonds and bank stocks on Wednesday, worried that a new antiestablishment government has increased chances of the country exiting the euro.

Italian markets had been calm for months, even as a political pairing that investors once considered a worst-case scenario edged toward becoming the new government. On Sunday, the populist 5 Star Movement and anti-immigration League party reached a broad agreement for that new government.

On Tuesday, Huffington Post Italia posted a draft government program that proposed the introduction of procedures within the eurozone to allow countries to quit the euro and said they would ask the European Central Bank to write off €250 billion ($296 billion) of government debt.

The market “was running under the understanding that 5 Star had dropped its antieuro rhetoric.

 

The document [on Tuesday] was a cold shower in that regard,” said  Giada Giani, Italian economist at Citi.

“Even discussing the idea of a parallel currency or figuring out a coordinated exit from the monetary union, the very fact that it’s put in a document suggests there are very strong forces pushing in that direction,” she added”

 

The FTSE MIB, Italy’s benchmark equity index, fell 2.3% on Wednesday. Major banks led the decline, with Unicredit, Banca Mediolanum and Banco BPM each down between 4% and 5.4%.

“With a public debt of 130% of GDP it remains quite a risk, especially with these parties, because they won’t step forward with reforms. They might even step back,” said Fabrizio Quirighetti, co-head of multiasset at SYZ Asset Management.

“The risk premium [on Italian debt] is very small compared to the damage you might take,” he added”

 

P.S German and French media have been trying to keep this quiet,  but the concerns have been there for some time and are starting to manifest themselves in the markets. I also cannot find anything about this very important news on the BBC website (*∆°)

So the markets believe that even anti-EU rhetoric is damaging for Italy. Mind you, what do experts know?

[Grouse]

It seems pretty obvious that the "transition" period will need to be significantly longer. None of the benefits mooted by Brexiters can come into effect until then

 

"Leaving the EU" in 2019 just means losing our unique benefits and opt-outs. That means that when we rejoin, we will be in a worse position than we are now! It is therefore an act of madness or pure bloodymindedness. 

 

We should remain until the actual exit date in 2023. Obvious!

[transam]

14 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Here's one of those who call the shots.

 

He "thinks" the UK does what he says, but the EU can don't give a shit....

[Eloquent pilgrim]

54 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

That document is already being reworked, according to an article in Der Spiegel, the leaked document was old and in fact has already been reworked removing many of the controversial paragraphs, it is being reworked again. The authors have been hit by reality, ideology vs markets. The end version will no doubt be more market friendly with a few defiant dummy throwing phrases.

 

Well of course they said it is being reworked, they had no choice, the document was leaked, what do you expect them to say.

 

More poignant is what Citi economist Giada Giani said, “Even discussing the idea of a parallel currency or figuring out a coordinated exit from the monetary union, the very fact that it’s put in a document suggests there are very strong forces pushing in that direction”

 

The markets have spoken, the markets that you continually tell us are the real gauge of events

 

And what did you really expect to read in Der Spiegel, a left wing tool of the political establishment ?

 

Was the article in the weekly magazine, or the entirely different "Spiegel Online" which is way behind the printed magazine in journalistic depth and quality ?

[transam]

Is this what the EU is really thinking.....

 

 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

53 minutes ago, Grouse said:

So the markets believe that even anti-EU rhetoric is damaging for Italy. Mind you, what do experts know?

A week or so ago, you announced to everyone reading this thread that you were going to use the ‘ignored users’ facility to ignore me. You were also kind enough to let everyone know that you were reporting me to the moderators. So I am a little perplexed as to why you are responding to my comment.

 

I have also noticed that you keep viewing my profile; it is probably not very informative, so if you wish to know something about me, I suggest you ask ….. thank you kindly

[transam]

The UK's song..."EU is a Lemon".....

 

[transam]

1 minute ago, oldhippy said:

QUOTE: P.S German and French media have been trying to keep this quiet,

 

Do you believe your own conspiracy theories? Or did you - again - get carried away as in your "hundreds of thousands migrants in designer clothes" comment?

You should do a bit more Googling chap.....

[beautifulthailand99]

14 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

I have no doubt we could have pushed the EU for a bespoke arrangement that would have been much better for the UK if there were not so many trying to overturn the referendum result.

 

When I voted leave I never expected the hard remainers to destroy our negotiating position. Project Fear should have included this in their warnings...

Or conversely the leavers had an actual plan and some talented negotiators rather than megaphone sloganeering and a winging it , finger in the air , trust me attitude. 

 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

21 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

QUOTE: Well of course they said it is being reworked, they had no choice, the document was leaked, what do you expect them to say.

Care to explain this? Do I detect another conspiracy?

 

If you read soalbundy’s reply to my original comment, you will see that he is aware of the document from the 5 Star Movement and the Northern League coalition. He is also aware that it was leaked and that it is being reworked because he obviously follows European politics. If you don’t wish to follow events, it is fine with me, but please don't expect me to explain every detail to you if you can’t be bothered to read them yourself. It was actually detailed in the article I posted from The Wall Street Journal, which you obviously haven't read because you are now just trolling me.

[CG1 Blue]

6 hours ago, soalbundy said:

Today in the Indi (you may not like the paper but they are reporting facts

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-environment-lords-eu-withdrawal-bill-theresa-may-a8354901.html

The only facts being reported are that the Lords rejected yet another piece of Brexit legislation.  The rest of the article is one sided, and mostly conjecture. Typical of the 'Independent'.

 

Let's face it - the Lords are not going to vote any Brexit legislation through, because they want Brexit cancelled.