Latest developments and discussion of recent events in the Ukraine War

[Laughing Gravy]

This is an interesting article in today's Times. I Guess more fish for dinner!

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/eu-is-accused-of-double-standards-over-fishing-rights-wjbjgxf8q

 

Brussels faced accusations of cherry picking yesterday after demanding that Britain allow access to its fishing waters after Brexit while pledging to limit the ability of UK finance firms to operate on the Continent.

Senior ministers suggested that the European Union was guilty of double standards as it published draft negotiating objectives for a new post-Brexit partnership with the UK.

The six-page document warns Britain to expect “negative economic consequences” from Brexit saying the new relationship would be “complicated and costly” and “inevitably lead to frictions”. But it raised eyebrows in London for demanding that the UK continue to allow access to European fishing fleets while apparently ruling out a bespoke deal for the City of London.

 

“It doesn’t surprise me that their position is ‘We would like a great deal of the thing that the British will be reluctant to concede’ and very little at all on offer of the things that the British will regard as most important,” Philip Hammond, the chancellor, said.

“That is probably not a bad opening strategy for anyone engaged in a negotiation process, and I do think you have to see this as a negotiating strategy.”

 

The draft negotiating mandate published yesterday avoids a direct confrontation with proposals set out by the prime minister last week but it limits any future deal to a trade agreement, excluding untrammelled access to Europe’s markets for the City.

Donald Tusk, president of the European Council, insisted that although he and other European governments did not want “to build a wall between the EU and Britain” there would be barriers to trade after Brexit because Britain would leave the single market and customs union. “This will be the first free trade agreement in history that loosens economic ties, instead of strengthening them,” he said.

“Our agreement will not make trade between the UK and the EU frictionless or smoother. It will make it more complicated and costly than today, for all of us. This is the essence of Brexit.”

The draft instructions to Michel Barnier, the EU’s lead negotiator, underline a Brussels doctrine on Brexit that requires Britain to pay an economic price for leaving. “Divergence in external tariffs and internal rules as well as absence of common institutions and a shared legal system, necessitates checks and controls to uphold the integrity of the EU single market as well as of the UK market,” said the guidelines. “This unfortunately will have negative economic consequences.”

 

Mr Tusk said he understood Theresa May’s “objective to demonstrate at any price that Brexit could be a success” but added, “sorry, it’s not our objective”.

In a new “evolution clause”, the guidelines hold the door open for a better trade deal if Mrs May changes her mind on a customs union with the EU after Brexit.

The mandate sets out a deliberately minimalist view of a possible trade relationship, leaving the door open for British proposals but effectively ruling out Mrs May’s plan for Britain to take part in EU agencies on chemicals, medicines or financial services. The EU’s negotiating position aims for “a free trade agreement” covering goods “which should be subject to zero tariffs and no quantitative restrictions with appropriate accompanying rules of origin”.

In exchange for free trade in goods, with co-operation on rules of origin to help industries such as car manufacturing, the EU demands “existing reciprocal access to fishing waters and resources be maintained”.

“This is a very ambitious trade deal,” a senior EU official said. British calls for financial services to be included in the free trade deal were rejected because “the UK will no longer share a common regulatory, supervisory, enforcement and judiciary framework”.

However, financial services are not explicitly mentioned in the document after at least one member state lobbied Mr Tusk to ensure that the EU’s mandate was not drawn too narrowly.

[Grouse]

39 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Please quote my posts in full. Or don't bother at all. Very poor form.

It was humour! Mea culpa

[Grouse]

39 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

My argument is common sense with no academic or statistical data to measure or use to put a point across.

The statistical data was presented in the form of a scatter plot. Would you prefer the raw data? It can be arranged ?

[Laughing Gravy]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The statistical data was presented in the form of a scatter plot. Would you prefer the raw data? It can be arranged ?

I was referring to my argument not the statistical scatter plot. I thought you would have understood that, anecdotal as it was.

[nauseus]

20 minutes ago, Grouse said:

It was humour! Mea culpa

Hard to tell really. 

[nauseus]

19 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The statistical data was presented in the form of a scatter plot. Would you prefer the raw data? It can be arranged ?

So sorry to interrupt but I'd like it, Source data and source please.

[Grouse]

17 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I was referring to my argument not the statistical scatter plot. I thought you would have understood that, anecdotal as it was.

What was anecdotal?

[Laughing Gravy]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

What was anecdotal?

I see you just last to get the last word in. Opinions are often. I won't be replying back.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

This is an interesting article in today's Times. I Guess more fish for dinner!

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/eu-is-accused-of-double-standards-over-fishing-rights-wjbjgxf8q

This has been known for months, if not longer, except the emphasis seems to have changed - rather than TM willingly selling the UK fishing fleet down the river by giving up fishing rights to secure any sop going, as was initially reported, the narrative is now that the big, bad EU is forcing poor Theresa to concede them.

 

And how is this different from her selling out the British consumer and farming industry by lowering the food safety standards that currenty protect us from all the nasties that the US food industry is filled with? Will this also be presented as the big, bad US forcing us to consume unheathy products in an effort to keep our economy afloat?

[Laughing Gravy]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

This has been known for months, if not longer, except the emphasis seems to have changed - rather than TM willingly selling the UK fishing fleet down the river by giving up fishing rights to secure any sop going, as was initially reported, the narrative is now that the big, bad EU is forcing poor Theresa to concede them.

 

And how is this different from her selling out the British consumer and farming industry by lowering the food safety standards that currenty protect us from all the nasties that the US food industry is filled with? Will this also be presented as the big, bad US forcing us to consume unheathy products in an effort to keep our economy afloat?

The fishing industry have been sold out for years by politicians from all sides. Giving away our waters first and then Blair and Major signing treaties 'through the back door'.

 

I am sure the US people live fine with their milk and beef etc. More project fear.  It is the EU has done the forcing for 40plus years. Bureaucracy is what the EU does to 'wrap countries up' and claiming it is for the benefit.  Please don't say that a bendy banana is justification improved standards!

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I see you just last to get the last word in. Opinions are often. I won't be replying back.

Well, thanks for that useful input!

 

No further comment necessary ?

Edited March 8, 2018 by Grouse

[RuamRudy]

18 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

The fishing industry have been sold out for years by politicians from all sides. Giving away our waters first and then Blair and Major signing treaties 'through the back door'.

 

I am sure the US people live fine with their milk and beef etc. More project fear.  It is the EU has done the forcing for 40plus years. Bureaucracy is what the EU does to 'wrap countries up' and claiming it is for the benefit.  Please don't say that a bendy banana is justification improved standards!

If you still believe the lie about bananas, then I wonder just how many other brexiters voted for leave on the myriad of lies that were told about the EU.

As for those pesky EU bureaucrats, preventing us getting a healthy dose of steroids, antibiotics and growth hormones in our food, how dare they! Was it John Gummer who force fed his daughter a hamburger to prove there was no such thing as mad cow disease?

[Laughing Gravy]

19 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

If you still believe the lie about bananas, then I wonder just how many other brexiters voted for leave on the myriad of lies that were told about the EU.

I voted to leave on the plain fact that the EU is a bullying entity which is corrupt to the core and I wanted the UK to be independent from it, as did everyone else I know. The EU has been built on lies. How ironic you mention it.

Now people can see what it is like, someone wants to leave and they are behaving like a bully in the school ground, trying to 'rob the lunch money.'

As with most bullies they will end up with a bloody nose.

[RuamRudy]

20 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I voted to leave on the plain fact that the EU is a bullying entity which is corrupt to the core and I wanted the UK to be independent from it, as did everyone else I know. The EU has been built on lies. How ironic you mention it.

Now people can see what it is like, someone wants to leave and they are behaving like a bully in the school ground, trying to 'rob the lunch money.'

As with most bullies they will end up with a bloody nose.

You raised the issue of bendy bananas as an example of an out of control EU - YET you knew it was a lie? How many more lies have you encouraged because they do your 'cause' good?

[Laughing Gravy]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You raised the issue of bendy bananas as an example of an out of control EU - YET you knew it was a lie? How many more lies have you encouraged because they do your 'cause' good?

None.

[dick dasterdly]

15 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Is this the study that was carried out by the University of Leicester by the way? A university?

 

Not much bias there then. It's like a pub chain carrying out a survey on the benefits of alcohol.

I think we need to go back to this occasionally quoted, 'fact '....

 

As another poster pointed out, there is NO WAY votes can be determined according to education, although they can be correalated according to wealthy districts.

 

And another poster was entirely right in pointing out that degrees have been 'dumbed down'...so that even the least intelligent can obtain a degree in media studies or whatever...

 

Apparently the 'intelligent', 'educated' young  couldn't be bothered to vote (according to the media and vociferous remainers) - so it's far more than 'a bit of a stretch' to imagine that 3% more graduates with stupid degrees would have changed things...

 

Having said this, it's possible that 3% more, entirely stupid graduates could possibly have changed the result....

 

And let's not forget that many, IQ challenged, have obtained 'degrees'...

 

 

[Laughing Gravy]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You raised the issue of bendy bananas as an example of an out of control EU - YET you knew it was a lie? How many more lies have you encouraged because they do your 'cause' good?

You should get over it. many people can see what the EU is like, don't like it and want out. If the EU was so democratic it would allow all countries in a vote but frighten the politicians to avoid it. or when they do have another referendum with project fear (Ireland).

 

The EU is bureaucratic, undemocratic and is planning for the federalization of Europe. One army, one currency, one ruling body, the EU. Old Drunckard has said it himself. If that's what you want then by all means go an live in a country that bends over and takes it. The UK have voted leave. respect the decision (which you clearly haven't) or move.

[dick dasterdly]

51 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

If you still believe the lie about bananas, then I wonder just how many other brexiters voted for leave on the myriad of lies that were told about the EU.

As for those pesky EU bureaucrats, preventing us getting a healthy dose of steroids, antibiotics and growth hormones in our food, how dare they! Was it John Gummer who force fed his daughter a hamburger to prove there was no such thing as mad cow disease?

The uk was part of the eu during the 'mad cow' epidemic - and abiding to it's v. low standards.

[Laughing Gravy]

 

Before I get called a liar or sent to the naughty corner for not providing a link.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31796337

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-directly-elected-president-jean-claude-juncker-european-council-donald-tusk-poland-rule-of-law-a8210736.html

 

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-juncker/two-speed-europe-is-the-future-of-enlarged-eu-juncker-says-idUKKCN0T72N320151118

[transam]

Back door German rule.....My late dad and grand parents would not be happy...

[Laughing Gravy]

Just now, transam said:

Back door German rule.....My late dad and grand parents would not be happy...

exactly and people say that you need a university degree to be clever and understand the EU. You just need to take your head out the sand to see it.

[transam]

4 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

exactly and people say that you need a university degree to be clever and understand the EU. You just need to take your head out the sand to see it.

For sure, the ordinary folk on the street have seen through it. They have seen the crap on their streets brought on by skint EU member countries that have done sod all but sponge and plague other handout country streets.....The UK has a new beginning, get back to where we were, let the spongers sponge from their own...

[StreetCowboy]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

None.

Is that None+1 now?

[dick dasterdly]

19 hours ago, aright said:

I agree generally with what you say but there are different intellectual requirements for different degrees.

My businesses are in the main technical and as a result require staff with technical qualifications. In my experience, non university, people with two technical 'A' Levels, as a general rule, have greater mental capacity and agility than a person with a degree in Media Studies.  

OK, time for me to 'fess up'....

 

I left school with 3 o levels - despite attending a 'top notch' grammar school - and in the 'A stream'.

 

  The 'chip on my shoulder' (and general rebellious nature) resulted in bugger all academic qualifications - but back in the '70s, employers were impressed by my school background, and so - I 'enjoyed' a career as a result of my intelligence.  To the extent that two long-term employers were very shocked (when writing job descriptions) that I didn't have a degree.

 

Let's be honest here, most graduates are very stupid - but they have a degree certificate..... 

[Laughing Gravy]

7 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Is that None+1 now?

As Churchill eloquently put it.

 

"There are a lot of lies going around... and half of them are true."

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."

"Truth is incontrovertible, ignorance can deride it, panic may resent it, malice may destroy it, but there it is."

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

The uk was part of the eu during the 'mad cow' epidemic - and abiding to it's v. low standards.

And how are the 'mad cows' going to decide which side of the open border they should be on? The regulations must be the same on both sides and that can only happen in one of 2 ways and neither is what the mad cow is proposing.

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I voted to leave on the plain fact that the EU is a bullying entity which is corrupt to the core and I wanted the UK to be independent from it, as did everyone else I know. The EU has been built on lies. How ironic you mention it.

Now people can see what it is like, someone wants to leave and they are behaving like a bully in the school ground, trying to 'rob the lunch money.'

As with most bullies they will end up with a bloody nose.

None so blind as those that do not want to see. The brexiteers will get the UK a bloody nose.

[soalbundy]

1 hour ago, transam said:

For sure, the ordinary folk on the street have seen through it. They have seen the crap on their streets brought on by skint EU member countries that have done sod all but sponge and plague other handout country streets.....The UK has a new beginning, get back to where we were, let the spongers sponge from their own...

and where were we exactly ?

[StreetCowboy]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

and where were we exactly ?

We were a great Empire; we fought and won two world wars; we won the World Cup.

 

Once we get rid of all the foreign Johnnies in the Barclays Premier League, we'll win the World Cup again, you mark my words.

 

And we'll get rid of all those foreign beggars, so that our own beggars can have the streets to themselves, and our spongers can sponge without foreigners sponging all the best bits.  I'm not sure what we'll do for Auxiliary Nurses, when we need a bit of sponging for ourselves, though. 

 

Last time I was in Manchester I didn't actually see any foreign beggars, it was all English blokes, but anyway, I'm sure you understand the principle. 

 

SC

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

We were a great Empire; we fought and won two world wars; we won the World Cup.

 

Once we get rid of all the foreign Johnnies in the Barclays Premier League, we'll win the World Cup again, you mark my words.

 

And we'll get rid of all those foreign beggars, so that our own beggars can have the streets to themselves, and our spongers can sponge without foreigners sponging all the best bits.  I'm not sure what we'll do for Auxiliary Nurses, when we need a bit of sponging for ourselves, though. 

 

Last time I was in Manchester I didn't actually see any foreign beggars, it was all English blokes, but anyway, I'm sure you understand the principle. 

 

SC

Ahh yes the empire,that was when we were the foreigners robbing the locals blind and shooting them when they protested.