Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[tomacht8]

Brexit is a pity for many uk citizens who like to be on the beach. As an EU citizen you can live in greece, italy, spain or portugal. You can buy a house or a flat there. You can open a business or work there.

No visa stress. Not nearly as complicated as in Thailand. Annoying for many, because no one knows at present how the laws look after brexit. Pity for the many young uk citizens. Probably less options.

Edited May 18, 2018 by tomacht8

[aright]

I see the EU want to call all member countries "Regions of the EU" Not only loss of sovereignty but country as well. They say it's only for statistical purposes but that's the way federalism starts isn't it.

This of course is easy for the unaccountable Cabal to roll out one law after another as a result of no party in opposition or the lack of a manifesto.

No doubt this will be perfectly acceptable to some Remainers and if it's not what can they do about it?

[soalbundy]

7 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

But if ther remainers won then that would allow the Brexiteers to demand a third referendum. If we win then the Remainers will demand another, ad nauseum.

No, I would just like to see a decisive majority for such an important decision which will affect everybody, 52% of those who voted was a majority but was not overwhelming. I would accept 70% whichever way it goes. If a second referendum produced another, for me, indecisive result, whichever way it went then presumably we would have to abide by leave since the process has already started. Unless leave shows some significant advantages, and it may do, then I think that within 5 years we will be back in anyway.

[soalbundy]

12 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

So what happens if there was a 2nd referendum and somehow Remain won by 52/48?

 

Best of 3?

No, that is not decisive and so the process having already started should continue.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

No, I would just like to see a decisive majority for such an important decision which will affect everybody, 52% of those who voted was a majority but was not overwhelming. I would accept 70% whichever way it goes. If a second referendum produced another, for me, indecisive result, whichever way it went then presumably we would have to abide by leave since the process has already started. Unless leave shows some significant advantages, and it may do, then I think that within 5 years we will be back in anyway.

 

“No, I would just like to see a decisive majority”

 

My ‘ol soalbundy, I’m sorry to have to correct you again. I don't pull people up for typos or erroneous grammar, but you seem to have a misunderstanding of some words that you use.

 

It WAS a decisive majority. The terms of the referendum were that votes would be cast for the UK to either remain or leave the EU; and that once the votes had been counted the majority of votes would be decisive in deciding the result. I think most people agree that a 4% margin was not huge, but it was quite categorically a decisive majority

 

decisive

ADJECTIVE

• 1
  Settling an issue; producing a definite result.

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

It WAS a decisive majority. The terms of the referendum were that votes would be cast for the UK to either remain or leave the EU; and that once the votes had been counted the majority of votes would be decisive in deciding the result. I think most people agree that a 4% margin was not huge, but it was quite categorically a decisive majority

Under the  umbrella of that magical £9 million Referendum leaflet, that specifically stated the Governments preference was to stay in the EU, the following quotation was very easy to see, read and digest.

 

Quote

This is your decision, The Government will implement what YOU decide.

A single vote was enough to trigger withdrawal from the EU.

 

This decisive majority is nothing but another red herring.

[The Renegade]

Quote

Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

The headline should read

 

Quote

Remainers have created chaos in Britain - They can't stop whinging, pulling out red herrings and clutching at straws.

 

Edited May 19, 2018 by The Renegade
Typo

[soalbundy]

33 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

“No, I would just like to see a decisive majority”

 

My ‘ol soalbundy, I’m sorry to have to correct you again. I don't pull people up for typos or erroneous grammar, but you seem to have a misunderstanding of some words that you use.

 

It WAS a decisive majority. The terms of the referendum were that votes would be cast for the UK to either remain or leave the EU; and that once the votes had been counted the majority of votes would be decisive in deciding the result. I think most people agree that a 4% margin was not huge, but it was quite categorically a decisive majority

 

decisive

ADJECTIVE

• 1
  Settling an issue; producing a definite result.

That isn't the point, it doesn't feel decisive, hence the divide.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

That isn't the point, it doesn't feel decisive, hence the divide.

If it were 60/40 you would still be here re-moaning...

[soalbundy]

30 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Under the  umbrella of that magical £9 million Referendum leaflet, that specifically stated the Governments preference was to stay in the EU, the following quotation was very easy to see, read and digest.

 

A single vote was enough to trigger withdrawal from the EU.

 

This decisive majority is nothing but another red herring.

So you are satisfied having a divided country or do you think these divisions will just disappear ? It is possible I will admit but not if the economy goes downhill, if anything the infighting will increase.

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

If it were 60/40 you would still be here re-moaning...

I'm not really moaning, it hardly affects me, but I am giving my opinion without, I hope, insulting anybody.

[The Renegade]

11 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

So you are satisfied having a divided country or do you think these divisions will just disappear ?

Satisfaction does not come into it. Division is something that needs to be addressed by those causing the division.

 

On the 23rd June 2016, over a million more people voted to leave the EU than those that voted remain.

 

On the 1st February 2017, 329 MP's voted to trigger Article 50, 112 voted against triggering Article 50.

 

That is democracy in action. So who is causing the division ?

Edited May 19, 2018 by The Renegade

[tebee]

I am seriously worried for the state of British politics and society in general. More so if we leave.

 

It would appear the age of consensus politics is dead. Now who ever can claim a small majority can pronounce they extreme vision as being the will of the people. Suppose for a minute   our friend  Corbyn wins the next election and gets an overall majority. He then declares all business and all housing stock to be nationalized without compensation. All jobs and home will be allocated by the state on a need basis. Some may complain, but he insists he said in his manifesto he would solve the housing crisis -  what he is doing is the will of the people.

 

Who is to argue with that ?

   

[soalbundy]

Just now, tebee said:

I am seriously worried for the state of British politics and society in general. More so if we leave.

 

It would appear the age of consensus politics is dead. Now who ever can claim a small majority can pronounce they extreme vision as being the will of the people. Suppose for a minute   our friend  Corbyn wins the next election and gets an overall majority. He then declares all business and all housing stock to be nationalized without compensation. All jobs and home will be allocated by the state on a need basis. Some may complain, but he insists he said in his manifesto he would solve the housing crisis -  what he is doing is the will of the people.

 

Who is to argue with that ?

   

As much as I admire your thoughts and opinions and enjoy your posts, this one is an exaggeration.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

22 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

That isn't the point, it doesn't feel decisive, hence the divide.

Well buddy / bundy, I’m afraid it is very much the point; you said you would like to see a decisive majority, which is exactly what you / we got. I cannot be responsible for the fact that it doesn't feel like it to you.

 

When you start to deny the factual because it don't feel right to you, we enter a separate dimension, one in which it is difficult to debate reasonably

[tebee]

British politics is broken.  While I think that stopping Brexit will not itself fix these politics in the short-term, ploughing on with it will embed its current broken form as the new normal in the medium-to-long term. Continuing with it gives the simple message to current and future voters and politicians that lies win, and can be deployed with impunity, conventions are meaningless, the constitution is weak, opponents need not be respected, and that the interests of the country are secondary to political whim. 

 

It also  tells  that the vilification of judges, civil servants, diplomats, foreigners, and even swathes of the population is acceptable, and, worse, a winning political strategy. In short, it says that the con-artists won, will continue to win, and there’s nothing anybody can do about it. They’re in charge now.

 

So, yes, a new referendum  will create its own problems and reopen divisions, but it may at least put us in a position where we are able to start dealing with the UK’s problems, rather than embedding  them further. It also seems apparent now that whatever form of Brexit is chosen will not bring healing stability. An EEA-like Brexit will anger the Ultras, allow them to blame all ills on Brexit not being done ‘properly’, and bring constant calls to withdraw from the arrangement. A hard Brexit will ruin the Good Friday Agreement, and bring economic harm that will make poverty, inequality and exclusion even worse, and tackling it nigh on impossible. 

 

So  a new referendum  won’t be pretty, but the alternative is much worse still. 

[tebee]

7 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

As much as I admire your thoughts and opinions and enjoy your posts, this one is an exaggeration.

 OK it's an exaggeration, but I'm extrapolating from what could happen IF we accept a) that a majority vote is assabile b ) We let a leader interpret that vote  any way they want 

[The Renegade]

17 minutes ago, tebee said:

I am seriously worried for the state of British politics and society in general. More so if we leave.

 

It would appear the age of consensus politics is dead. Now who ever can claim a small majority can pronounce they extreme vision as being the will of the people. Suppose for a minute   our friend  Corbyn wins the next election and gets an overall majority. He then declares all business and all housing stock to be nationalized without compensation. All jobs and home will be allocated by the state on a need basis. Some may complain, but he insists he said in his manifesto he would solve the housing crisis -  what he is doing is the will of the people.

 

Who is to argue with that ?

   

Just a guess, but 99% of people who are capable of rational thought.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Well buddy / bundy, I’m afraid it is very much the point; you said you would like to see a decisive majority, which is exactly what you / we got. I cannot be responsible for the fact that it doesn't feel like it to you.

 

When you start to deny the factual because it don't feel right to you, we enter a separate dimension, one in which it is difficult to debate reasonably

but that is precisely it because it doesn't feel right people in both camps are not being reasonable, insults are being trade left right and center, leavers are being called morons for their opinions and remainers who are exercising their democratic rights to stop what they feel is a mistake are being called traitors. Politics has a lot to do with feelings and emotions, not just the printed words on a document. I used to do industrial graphic for BMW, some of it was extremely difficult, when I once offered my concerns about the perspective on some work that I had done my boss said to me, if it looks right, it is right, it's the same in politics, the brexit decision just doesn't look right. 

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

the brexit decision just doesn't look right. 

The Brexit decision does not look right for the EU and EU sycophants you mean ?

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, The Renegade said:

The Brexit decision does not look right for the EU and EU sycophants you mean ?

insults again ?

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

insults again ?

Why do you think it is insult ?

 

Do you really believe that there are no people, especially in the context of Brexit, who are not EU sycophants ?

 

Check the comments any day of the week on the UK's MSM from people who claim to be from the European mainland.

[Kwasaki]

41 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

So you are satisfied having a divided country or do you think these divisions will just disappear ?

Division is undemocratic it would satisfactory if remainers accepted democracy otherwise what's the point.

[soalbundy]

Just now, The Renegade said:

Why do you think it is insult ?

 

Do you really believe that there are no people, especially in the context of Brexit, who are not EU sycophants ?

 

Check the comments any day of the week on the UK's MSM from people who claim to be from the European mainland.

there are no little Englaender sychophants ? insults are unnecessary.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

27 minutes ago, tebee said:

 OK it's an exaggeration, but I'm extrapolating from what could happen IF we accept a) that a majority vote is assabile b ) We let a leader interpret that vote  any way they want 

One can only extrapolate from past experience or known data and facts, you cannot extrapolate from something that hypothetically might occur, what you are doing is in fact fantasising, which is fine, if that's what you want to do ??

Edited May 19, 2018 by Eloquent pilgrim

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

insults are unnecessary.

I agree, but take a step back and look who started the insults.

 

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

there are no little Englaender sychophants ?

Sure there is. The point that you are missing is that those little Englander  ( another insult ) sycophants are at least British and the vast majority of them probably have a vote.

 

Which is a world of difference from EU sycophants from the Mainland, who are NOT British and do NOT have a vote.

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Division is undemocratic it would satisfactory if remainers accepted democracy otherwise what's the point.

Even in a democracy there is division, there is always a loser but losing is acceptable, if grudgingly, as long as the winning party won overwhelmingly, problems arise when almost half lose out.

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Even in a democracy there is division, there is always a loser but losing is acceptable, if grudgingly, as long as the winning party won overwhelmingly, problems arise when almost half lose out.

Now that the government has slipped in another clutch of Lords under the radar on a Friday night immediately before a royal wedding, can we drop the word 'democracy'? Whatever happens from this point forward, I think that democracy has no part to play in it.

[soalbundy]

Just now, The Renegade said:

I agree, but take a step back and look who started the insults.

 

Sure there is. The point that you are missing is that those little Englander  ( another insult ) sycophants are at least British and the vast majority of them probably have a vote.

 

Which is a world of difference from EU sycophants from the Mainland, who are NOT British and do NOT have a vote.

but they will be affected as well, surely they have right to their opinions, it doesn't make them a sycophant. I have read some German opinions in German newspapers who praise the idea of brexit but I have also read readers opinions in the Daily excess which one could only see as coming from the little Englander mentality, I'm not saying that is overall so but it exists. Reasonable discussion on this subject as Eloquent pilgrim pointed out isn't possible, everyone is entrenched. What the future holds is impossible to tell but I doubt it will be either as good or horrific as the different camps make out.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

16 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Even in a democracy there is division, there is always a loser but losing is acceptable, if grudgingly, as long as the winning party won overwhelmingly, problems arise when almost half lose out.

The terms of the referendum did not state that the vote, either for or against needed to be overwhelming, simply that it needed to be a decisive majority, which it was.

 

The reason that the country is divided is because people like your good self and likeminded others, refuse to accept the result of a democratic referendum, in which the decisive majority voted to leave the EU. The country will remain divided unless people like yourself are prepared to accept the democratic result of the referendum. It is up to you, people that have accepted the decision cannot heal the division, only people like yourself can …… but I shan't be holding my breath in anticipation