Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[beautifulthailand99]

19 minutes ago, transam said:

I drink Archa....

crikey things are that bad Lao Kao ice and soda would make a cheaper tipple if you can hold your nose whilst administering.

[beautifulthailand99]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

Think something with post #9158 went wrong....

 

you were briefly me - you have my sympathies....

[The Renegade]

47 minutes ago, tebee said:

The Prime Minister confirms at PMQs to me that there is NO level of damage Brexit can inflict on UK firms and jobs that will lead her to grant the people a final say on the deal and a chance to exit from #Brexit. This is the state we are in"

Right tebee,, spot on.

 

Like I told you before.

 

A remainer told me down the pub, that his wet, smelly follow through was down to Brexit. It definitely was nothing to do with 15 pints of Guinness and a Vindaloo.

 

Hearsay is nothing my good man, time you stopped believing it as Gospel.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

Think something with post #9158 went wrong....

 

Yes apologies, I was replying to someone else and clicked on your comment erroneously ??

[beautifulthailand99]

Just now, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Yes apologies, I was replying to someone else and clicked on your comment erroneously ??

Good to see you have taken back control of the post now !

[beautifulthailand99]

38 minutes ago, vogie said:

Two questions.

 

1: Why are they "parying for Mr Nigel Farage"

 

2: Did you get your doctored meme off facebook?

1. It's a broad church - the poor refugee child thinks Mr Farage is his friend and will look after his interests - he is in good British company there.

2. Nontabury is the uncrowned meme King - answer no from Google Images search term "Nigel Farage is God. "?

[Eloquent pilgrim]

11 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

NO , NO , NO as the great British patriot the Reverend Ian Paisley would have said. LEAVE means LEAVE.  Can I join the club now that I have mastrichted the magic words. Another lovely British morning in sunny Welling ........I am considering my UKIP options 

 

 

 

 

Ha Ha. You'll never cut the mustard as a leaver; best stick with Geldof, Lilly Allen and that inanely grinning crisp salesman

[sandyf]

6 hours ago, tebee said:

Another of my occasional questions for the leaver amongst you.

 

After the debate on the Lords amendments the other day, Theresa May was reported as saying she will deliver the Brexit the British people voted for, no matter how much damage it does to British business, the economy and jobs.

 

Does this seem a reasonable policy to you and one you could support?

Only the delusional would think that this is what Joe Public voted for.

 

She has also claimed that the UK is a union of equals but effectively denied the devolved nations any say in the debate. This week has certainly highlighted how much damage she has inflicted on what is now the DK. As far as TM is concerned you will get what I give you, like it or lump it.

Even the revolt she is supposed to have defused has raised its head again.

 

Ex-Tory attorney general Dominic Grieve told The Independent he spent the morning negotiating with ministers and agreeing a wording to a new amendment, but claimed what was tabled later in the afternoon had been altered.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-theresa-may-uk-eu-rebels-tory-lords-no-deal-customs-union-a8399356.html

[transam]

5 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Only the delusional would think that this is what Joe Public voted for.

 

She has also claimed that the UK is a union of equals but effectively denied the devolved nations any say in the debate. This week has certainly highlighted how much damage she has inflicted on what is now the DK. As far as TM is concerned you will get what I give you, like it or lump it.

Even the revolt she is supposed to have defused has raised its head again.

 

Ex-Tory attorney general Dominic Grieve told The Independent he spent the morning negotiating with ministers and agreeing a wording to a new amendment, but claimed what was tabled later in the afternoon had been altered.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-theresa-may-uk-eu-rebels-tory-lords-no-deal-customs-union-a8399356.html

But Joe did vote for Brexit and to let the gov sort stuff....

 

You seen to like individuals that write for newspapers....Good hobby I suppose, music is my thing though..

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

No offence Grouse, old bean, but since you called for this topic to be closed down, any comments you make to me now fall into the ‘broken pencil’ category

 

Do you really have nothing else to do, other than post comments on a topic that you wish no longer existed ??

Actually I did complain about the level of acrimony and general unpleasantness here. I did not specifically request closure. I respect the moderators on this matter. I have enjoyed vigorous debate on this board for several years. I did not mention individuals specifically, but two relative newbies need to learn how to debate with rather more decorum

Edited June 15, 2018 by Grouse

[The Renegade]

11 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Only the delusional would think that this is what Joe Public voted for.

What did Joe Public vote for ? What do you know that the rest of Joe Public do not know ?

 

The Referendum was a simple Remain or Leave option for Joe Public.

 

12 minutes ago, sandyf said:

She has also claimed that the UK is a union of equals but effectively denied the devolved nations any say in the debate.

The devolved Nations have all been involved in the debate. Having said that, the tail does not wag the dog.

 

In matters UK, Westminster is the over-riding power. Something that Sturgeon should get to grips with. She can become a big fish in a small pond when Scotland actually votes for Independence.

[The Renegade]

Just now, Grouse said:

I did not mention individuals specifically, but two relative newbies need to learn how to debate with rather more decorem

???

 

As a newbie, I must admit, I am struggling to recall you debating anything. All I seem to see are snide remarks, insulting remarks and all round general nothingness in the way of debate.

 

The word you are looking for is Decorum. 

 

As you are so unhappy, perhaps you should Brexit the thread.

 

[The Renegade]

6 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

does 'Brexit' on your underpants signify you suffer from ED, ie its gone soft in the middle ?

Nah.

 

That would be remainer underpants. Always looking for a soft Brexit ??

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

 

"You say it best when you say nothing at all" ?

Edited June 15, 2018 by Grouse

[tebee]

Just now, Grouse said:

Actually I did complain about the level of acrimony and general unpleasantness here. I did not specifically request closure. I respect the moderators on this matter. I have enjoyed vigorous debate on this board for several years. I did not mention individuals specifically, but two relative newbies need to learn how to debate with rather more decorem

I've always held the belief  that if people have to resort to ad hominem insults it's because they are losing the argument, so I assume I've won. 

[RuamRudy]

16 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

???

 

As a newbie, I must admit, I am struggling to recall you debating anything. All I seem to see are snide remarks, insulting remarks and all round general nothingness in the way of debate.

 

The word you are looking for is Decorum. 

 

As you are so unhappy, perhaps you should Brexit the thread.

 

As Grouse indicated, this thread, following on from its predecessor, has been running for a few years now and we have had some vigorous back and fore over that time, more than a few suspensions and lots of dummies being routinely spat by some of the more exuberant characters who posted.

 

However recently it has become tainted by snide attacks by certain newbies. The gall of you now to suggest that one of the mainstays of this thread should leave would, had it come from another, be quite staggering.  

 

How I hark back for those halcyon days where neighbours were friends, Britain was great... 

[transam]

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

I've always held the belief  that if people have to resort to ad hominem insults it's because they are losing the argument, so I assume I've won. 

What you have posted has been answered, but those in your "camp" who crossed a line because they were in a corner and the only way out was to degrade posters really shows all...We have all read that stuff.

BUT, being perfectly polite, you won sod all.....

[Grouse]

29 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

???

 

As a newbie, I must admit, I am struggling to recall you debating anything. All I seem to see are snide remarks, insulting remarks and all round general nothingness in the way of debate.

 

The word you are looking for is Decorum. 

 

As you are so unhappy, perhaps you should Brexit the thread.

 

I did warn you.

[The Renegade]

11 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

However recently it has become tainted by snide attacks by certain newbies.

I would like you to point them out to me.

 

Quote

The word you are looking for is Decorum. 

 

When one continuously harks on about uneducated leavers, they should not be surprised when they get pulled up over their spelling. After all, anyone over a certain age knows that spelling was a massive mark down in exams.

 

Quote

As you are so unhappy, perhaps you should Brexit the thread.

As a Paramedic, I was making a suggestion that might alleviate what is obviously a concern for the poster.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by The Renegade

[aright]

26 minutes ago, tebee said:

I've always held the belief  that if people have to resort to ad hominem insults it's because they are losing the argument, so I assume I've won. 

I wish that worked with the English cricket team?

[tebee]

6 minutes ago, transam said:

What you have posted has been answered, but those in your "camp" who crossed a line because they were in a corner and the only way out was to degrade posters really shows all...We have all read that stuff.

BUT, being perfectly polite, you won sod all.....

I never insult the other side - it's doesn't gain anything - I have never called leavers stupid  for example - I may say they were misled in being shown what were Prima Facie good answers to the UK's problems, I may say they lack the cognitive  ability to understand the consequences of things sometimes,  but that is consequence of the complexity of our modern day society  rather than a reflexion on them. These days, politics, commerce, education and society interact in complex and confusing ways.

 

You may have noticed I don't really care what people say or think about me. I have no need for others respect unlike some people I know. It's immensely freeing, but I'd never go anywhere in politics. I don't know everything, but I know how to find people who can explain those parts to me.   

 

So I never respond to personal insults or complain about them, you are perfectly entitled to hold whatever opinion you want of me. 

[CG1 Blue]

45 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Actually I did complain about the level of acrimony and general unpleasantness here. I did not specifically request closure. I respect the moderators on this matter. I have enjoyed vigorous debate on this board for several years. I did not mention individuals specifically, but two relative newbies need to learn how to debate with rather more decorum

To be fair, you often suggest people you are debating with are uneducated or lack intelligence, and that's not pleasant.

Not many of us can claim to be pleasant all the time on these threads.

 

 

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, CG1 Blue said:

To be fair, you often suggest people you are debating with are uneducated or lack intelligence, and that's not pleasant.

Not many of us can claim to be pleasant all the time on these threads.

 

 

I have never commented on intelligence

 

I have pointed out that poor or no tertiary education is correlated with voting leave

 

I have abandoned the use of the word "Numpty"; Populist seems to be the PC word now.

 

I do not indulge in ad hominem attacks

 

I am taking action

[CG1 Blue]

11 minutes ago, tebee said:

I have never called leavers stupid  for example - I may say they were misled in being shown what were Prima Facie good answers to the UK's problems, I may say they lack the cognitive  ability to understand the consequences of things sometimes

Sorry, but saying they were misled (i.e. gullible) and lack cognitive ability is quite similar to calling them stupid.

 

The fact is a lot of people, myself included, fully understood the consequences, and made their own minds up rather than getting sucked in by the propaganda on both sides. We were already hard coded against the EU project. We never wanted to be a part of such a project.

 

So it doesn't matter how many doomsday scenarios are thrown at us, we just want out, and then to build from there.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Sorry, but saying they were misled (i.e. gullible) and lack cognitive ability is quite similar to calling them stupid.

 

The fact is a lot of people, myself included, fully understood the consequences, and made their own minds up rather than getting sucked in by the propaganda on both sides. We were already hard coded against the EU project. We never wanted to be a part of such a project.

 

So it doesn't matter how many doomsday scenarios are thrown at us, we just want out, and then to build from there.

Very good CG. And very true. The most relevant reminder for the last xx,000 posts or so.

 

Millions from all classes and backgrounds have felt this way for a very long time. 

[Scott]

Troll post and replies removed.  

[7by7]

7 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Sorry, but saying they were misled (i.e. gullible) and lack cognitive ability is quite similar to calling them stupid

 

In 1973, 67.23% of those who voted, including myself, voted to stay in what was then the EEC. 

 

We based that decision on the arguments put forward by both sides at the time; with the 'Yes' arguments being more convincing.

 

You believe that to have been the wrong decision; so were we all misled, or as you put it; gullible and therefore stupid?

 

7 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

The fact is a lot of people, myself included, fully understood the consequences, and made their own minds up rather than getting sucked in by the propaganda on both sides. We were already hard coded against the EU project. We never wanted to be a part of such a project

I want to believe that most people in both referenda, whichever way they voted, based their decision on the facts; weighing them up and forming an opinion as to what was best for the country.

 

Unfortunately, evidence at the time and since shows that in 2016 a significant number based their vote to leave on false information put about by certain fringe elements of the Leave campaign (such as publicising yet again false EU directives like the one supposedly insisting upon straight cucumbers!).

 

What is worse, a significant minority based their leave vote on matters which had nothing to do with the EU at all. The most common being non EEA immigration into the UK. Something which, as earlier posts in this topic prove, some Brexiteers still think is down to the EU!

 

Misled? yes. 

 

Misinformed? Yes.

 

Gullible? Maybe.

 

Stupid? Being any or all of the above does not make one stupid; neither does ignorance of or being uneducated about a subject.

 

7 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

So it doesn't matter how many doomsday scenarios are thrown at us, we just want out, and then to build from there

I still firmly believe that, for all it's faults, remaining in the EU was the better option.  But Leave won the referendum, so leave we must.

 

We have made our bed and must now lie in it; whether it be a bed of nails or a bed of feathers.

Edited June 15, 2018 by 7by7

[tomacht8]

Would be good if this treat would be more factual again.

It does not speak against it, if one has a contrary opinion.

 

What annoys me are the posts with the structure:

Personal insult

argument

Personal insult

 

Unfortunately, the thread has lost in level in terms of informative and respectful information exchange.

 

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

In 1973, 67.23% of those who voted, including myself, voted to stay in what was then the EEC. 

 

We based that decision on the arguments put forward by both sides at the time; with the 'Yes' arguments being more convincing.

 

You believe that to have been the wrong decision; so were we all misled, or as you put it; gullible and therefore stupid?

 

I want to believe that most people in both referenda, whichever way they voted, based their decision on the facts; weighing them up and forming an opinion as to what was best for the country.

 

Unfortunately, evidence at the time and since shows that in 2016 a significant number based their vote to leave on false information put about by certain fringe elements of the Leave campaign (such as publicising yet again false EU directives like the one supposedly insisting upon straight cucumbers!).

 

What is worse, a significant minority based their leave vote on matters which had nothing to do with the EU at all. The most common being non EEA immigration into the UK. Something which, as earlier posts in this topic prove, some Brexiteers still think is down to the EU!

 

Misled? yes. 

 

Misinformed? Yes.

 

Gullible? Maybe.

 

Stupid? Being any or all of the above does not make one stupid; neither does ignorance of or being uneducated about a subject.

 

I still firmly believe that, for all it's faults, remaining in the EU was the better option.  But Leave won the referendum, so leave we must.

 

We have made our bed and must now lie in it; whether it be a bed of nails or a bed of feathers.

In 1973 the yes lies were more convincing than the very valid no concerns.

 

 

[tebee]

12 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Sorry, but saying they were misled (i.e. gullible) and lack cognitive ability is quite similar to calling them stupid.

 

The fact is a lot of people, myself included, fully understood the consequences, and made their own minds up rather than getting sucked in by the propaganda on both sides. We were already hard coded against the EU project. We never wanted to be a part of such a project.

 

So it doesn't matter how many doomsday scenarios are thrown at us, we just want out, and then to build from there.

Again this is not what I am saying - it is not stupidity that prevents people understanding how modern trade works ( or indeed finance or the economy in general)  It is the complexity  of the systems we have built up over the last 80 years or so. It's not only the "common man" that doesn't understand these. I would for instance, doubt  that most of the press and 75% of MP could explain the difference between a customs union and the single market and which benefits derive from each of these.

 

 We used to rely on others to understand these for us, but now we deride "experts" and prefer to believe in those who rely on dogma or acts of faith. People spout rubbish on television or in the newspapers and no one corrects them.

 

I'll give you a little analogy. In the 1950's cars were nice simple things, a few mechanical and electrical systems working together that were fairly easy to understand. These days they have fuel injection systems and  computerised engine management - much more complex, but they run more efficiently and more reliably than the old ones. Equally it's much harder to explain how everything in a car works these days .

 

The economy and trade has got simmerly more complex. Much of Brexit wants to rip all the complex modern electronics off the car of trade  and go back to a simpler time - after we will wonder why our car doesn't run as well (or at all!)