Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[The Renegade]

Quote

Hardened Eurosceptics might love to think the EU's in trouble, but as leaders gather in Brussels for their summer summit on Thursday, dedicated Europhiles are also sounding the alarm.

 

"The fragility of the EU is increasing," warns EU Commission chief Jean-Claude Juncker. "The cracks are growing in size."

Quote

Gloomy German government sources told me they gave the project a three out of 10 chance of survival thanks to the increasingly nationalistic nature of many European governments.

 

"And if Schengen does fail," they predict, "that would be the beginning of the end of the European Union."

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44632471

 

Those cracks appeared long ago, the EU have done a great job in papering over them. This was done by bullying or financial coercion. They are now opening up into giant crevices that are not going to be papered over and neither is bullying or financial coercion going to work.

 

Yes, lets scream about Brexit and ignore reality that will probably bring about the demise of the EU as it is currently known.

[Chomper Higgot]

10 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I also agree that the uk govt. may resort to US style policies, that only take into account money - not public health.

 

The eu has been instrumental in protecting food safeguards - unlike the uk govt....

 

The privatisation of the NHS started a long time ago - certainly before brexit!

 

Finally, the lowest paid (and increasingly 'average' workers) have seen their salaries reduced.  "Decent jobs" that have seen their salaries cut - as those 'at the top' decide that their salaries are best increased by reducing the salaries of everyone outside their 'important' sphere....

 

The open doors policy has only helped them in this regard.

Pro Brexit Tories have clearly stated their intention to reduce/remove worker rights (a Brexit opportunity).

 

You are correct, ‘those at the top’ have [in many instances] paid themselves more while cutting (or not increasing) worker pay.

This however is not universally true, workers in industries/sectors in which the workers are unionised have  protected their pay and conditions by unionised action.

 

The idea that workers in the U.K. are helpless pawns of their managers/the EU is only true if they choose to be.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Yes, the commission is bound to consult parliament, they exchange their publications, the parliament make proposals in the way of publications that they pass to the commission who then draft legislation which they then pass back to parliament to amend before passing back again and so on until it is complete and given to parliament to vote on.  The constitution demands that they work closely together.

 

Anyone can lobby anyone, that does not mean they will always get what they want.  UKIP MEP's hadn't all turned up to vote in months, until the EU voted on putting restrictions on the financial sector in order to prevent future crashes, and suddenly there they all were, suddenly UKIP had an interest in politics and all showed up to vote against protecting the people from the bankers.  Vote traitor UKIP.

 

If you think that the two of them knowing each other so well, one of them funding the other, is just a coincidence and comparable to a random stranger who also happened to make money that same day then you are taken.

The EU Parliament does not normally initiate proposals to initiate legislation and consultation is not mandatory in all cases. What UKIP may or may not have down is irrelevant to this argument - MEP voting is not lobbying - in fact individual MEP votes have less effect. If you want to believe in a single sensationalist story then it's probably you that have been had. 

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

One big concern for me is the possibilty of the introduction of fire at will type rules; Rees Mogg has, I believe, already mooted such ideas, albeit in less stark terms.

The changes in industrial tribunal rules has already made claims of unfair dismissal much harder to pursue; I believe that was the thin end of the wedge.

I'm still in two minds about this.

 

Whilst I (to a certain extent) appreciate the 'unfair dismissal' rules - I've also seen it taken to ludicrous extents to protect 'personnel' that undoubtedly should have been immediately fired.

 

We had proof that an employee was stealing, but the county was more concerned about following all the necessary procedures.  It will come as no suprise that the employee (on full pay) eventually resigned before the final 'hearing', without a stain on their record....

 

Admittedly, this is the worst case in which I've been involved - but there have been others too.

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Pro Brexit Tories have clearly stated their intention to reduce/remove worker rights (a Brexit opportunity).

 

You are correct, ‘those at the top’ have [in many instances] paid themselves more while cutting (or not increasing) worker pay.

This however is not universally true, workers in industries/sectors in which the workers are unionised have  protected their pay and conditions by unionised action.

 

The idea that workers in the U.K. are helpless pawns of their managers/the EU is only true if they choose to be.

Sorry to be rude, but rubbish.

 

I've been through 'restructuring' twice - and both times it was all about reducing the salaries for those at the bottom and middle of 'the scale' - and the unions didn't bother to fight against this!

 

It was true decades ago that unions fought for those that paid their salaries, but not nowadays.

[tebee]

31 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I also agree that the uk govt. may resort to US style policies, that only take into account money - not public health.

 

The eu has been instrumental in protecting food safeguards - unlike the uk govt....

 

The privatisation of the NHS started a long time ago - certainly before brexit!

 

Finally, the lowest paid (and increasingly 'average' workers) have seen their salaries reduced.  "Decent jobs" that have seen their salaries cut - as those 'at the top' decide that their salaries are best increased by reducing the salaries of everyone outside their 'important' sphere....

 

The open doors policy has only helped them in this regard.

But the rest of the EU does not share the UK's problems like low wages - you don't think this might have more to do with UK gov policies than the EU's ?

 

You are handing more power to the people who make the policies you don't like and removing EU protections from us.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Sorry to be rude, but rubbish.

 

I've been through 'restructuring' twice - and both times it was all about reducing the salaries for those at the bottom and middle of 'the scale' - and the unions didn't bother to fight against this!

 

It was true decades ago that unions fought for those that paid their salaries, but not nowadays.

Erm.....This from the very much ‘right of center’ Telegraph:

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10860017/Union-members-4000-a-year-better-off-government-report-suggests.html

 

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

But the rest of the EU does not share the UK's problems like low wages - you don't think this might have more to do with UK gov policies than the EU's ?

Are you blind ?

 

Low wages are a problem across the whole EU, even the industrial powerhouse of Germany is blighted by it.

 

2012

 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/low-paid-workers-struggle-despite-germany-s-booming-economy-a-832724.html

 

2018

 

https://www.dw.com/en/one-in-10-german-workers-earn-below-minimum-wage/a-42356571

 

 

[Laughing Gravy]

10 minutes ago, tebee said:

But the rest of the EU does not share the UK's problems like low wages - you don't think this might have more to do with UK gov policies than the EU's ?

That gets the funniest quote of the week for me. Why on earth is the UK full of EU migrants from Poland, Spain, Bulgaria, Romania etc etc in the UK. To earn better ages or because of high unemployment.

[CGW]

50 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

There are no “non elected officials’ in the EU ruling anybody.

If you are pro Brexit as you obviously are you could take that view, the fact is they are "elected" by the Parliament, not the people.

[transam]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Of course, it all depends upon what you consider my kin.

 

Please do not lose sight of the fact that the majority of people born in Scotland voted to leave the UK. Take that in and absorb it - most Scots-born voters do not want to be part of the UK.

 

 

Now, we can surely count on that Scottish number not to have decreased much; rather, the utter disaster the Tories are making of an unwanted Brexit and the dismal failure of Labour to hold them to account must be swelling the ranks of Scots-born Yes voters. For those born outside the UK, I would assume the choice is much more stark now - Scottish independence or possibly being sent home. For those born in the rest of the UK it is a bit of a mystery to me as to how they feel, but hopefully we can count on much of them to see the light.

The Scot controllers stated who could vote regarding Scotland leaving the union...The voters thought different to you...

 

The UK gov stated who could vote for Brexit...The voters thought different to you....

Perhaps you should understand that two important votes pointed out they think different to you...?

 

 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

The Scot controllers stated who could vote regarding Scotland leaving the union...The voters thought different to you...

 

The UK gov stated who could vote for Brexit...The voters thought different to you....

Perhaps you should understand that two important votes pointed out they think different to you...?

 

 

I am not disputing the results, I am pointing out that, regarding 'my kin', they voted to leave the UK. That we did not do enough to persuade our new Scots of the need for change is a learning point that I hope we can improve upon next time round.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

I am not disputing the results, I am pointing out that, regarding 'my kin', they voted to leave the UK. That we did not do enough to persuade our new Scots of the need for change is a learning point that I hope we can improve upon next time round.

From the Scotsman.

 

A majority of Scots do not want a second referendum on Scottish independence within the next three years as the UK wrestles with its exit from the European Union, a poll has revealed. The survey found that while 41 per cent back IndyRef2 before 2021, only 22 per cent want a referendum as soon as Brexit takes place.

Read more at: https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/poll-most-scots-don-t-want-indyref2-in-next-three-years-1-4705225

 

[transam]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I am not disputing the results, I am pointing out that, regarding 'my kin', they voted to leave the UK. That we did not do enough to persuade our new Scots of the need for change is a learning point that I hope we can improve upon next time round.

Hmmm, this bloke maybe of help....

 

 

[Kieran00001]

3 hours ago, transam said:

Of course the EU will survive in one form or another. 27 members, those with their hands out ain't going anywhere, the money countries don't want egg on their face, those controlling the EU don't want to lose their nice pay checks..

 

The reason the countries making the large contributions will continue to do so is that if they do not then they will have influxes of immigrants from the poorer countries, better to help them and they stay at home, it's one of the founding aims of the EC and has nothing to do with egg on faces.

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

The reason the countries making the large contributions will continue to do so is that if they do not then they will have influxes of immigrants from the poorer countries, better to help them and they stay at home, it's one of the founding aims of the EC and has nothing to do with egg on faces.

Well it hasen't worked then has it.

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, vogie said:

From the Scotsman.

 

A majority of Scots do not want a second referendum on Scottish independence within the next three years as the UK wrestles with its exit from the European Union, a poll has revealed. The survey found that while 41 per cent back IndyRef2 before 2021, only 22 per cent want a referendum as soon as Brexit takes place.

Read more at: https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/poll-most-scots-don-t-want-indyref2-in-next-three-years-1-4705225

 

We don't want Brexit either but it is being forced upon us - why be so observant of the desires of Scots when it suits you?

I can understand the desire for stability, but I much prefer to pull the sticking plaster off in one go rather than endure slow pain.

[Kieran00001]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

Well it hasen't worked then has it.

 

It is working, did you want to give them all your money to change things overnight?  Most people are happier only giving some of their money and changing things gradually.

[Chomper Higgot]

29 minutes ago, CGW said:

If you are pro Brexit as you obviously are you could take that view, the fact is they are "elected" by the Parliament, not the people.

I’m not at all sure where you get the idea I’m ‘pro-Brexit’.

 

And yes, just like in the UK parliament appoints the civil service, but the elected parliament governs.

 

The UK parliament governs the UK and has an absolute sovereign right of veto on all EU laws.

 

There have however, during the Brexit process, been a number of ‘assaults’ on the sovereignty of the UK parliament, these have come from the PM and her cabinet with their attempts to bypass parliament and rule by ‘executive’.

 

Thankfully the House of Lords and ‘enemies of the people’ fought the government and protected the sovereignty of parliment over dictate from the executive.

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

We don't want Brexit either but it is being forced upon us - why be so observant of the desires of Scots when it suits you?

I can understand the desire for stability, but I much prefer to pull the sticking plaster off in one go rather than endure slow pain.

That is the difference between you and I, you say Scots, I say the United Kingdom.

[transam]

16 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

The reason the countries making the large contributions will continue to do so is that if they do not then they will have influxes of immigrants from the poorer countries, better to help them and they stay at home, it's one of the founding aims of the EC and has nothing to do with egg on faces.

But they do have the large influx....Are you daft....Are you ignoring German stuff going on NOW........

[vogie]

23 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

The reason the countries making the large contributions will continue to do so is that if they do not then they will have influxes of immigrants from the poorer countries, better to help them and they stay at home, it's one of the founding aims of the EC and has nothing to do with egg on faces.

This is not "influxes" in your eyes. I really think it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[Kieran00001]

14 minutes ago, transam said:

But they do have the large influx....Are you daft....Are you ignoring German stuff going on NOW........

 

It would be larger without the measures they are taking to even things out, are you denying that the bailouts have kept some Greek people in Greece, for instance?

[Kieran00001]

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

This is not "influxes" in your eyes. I really think it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

 

 

I am not saying there are no influxes from poorer countries, I am saying that the richer countries in Europe are paying the poorer countries in Europe to stop those countries producing large influxes of people to the richer countries in Europe.  Your picture of a large influx of people from outside of Europe is clearly irrelevant to that.

[transam]

3 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

It would be larger without the measures they are taking to even things out, are you denying that the bailouts have kept some Greek people in Greece, for instance?

Good grief man......

[Kieran00001]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

Good grief man......

 

The EU only has a few objectives, tackling inequality in Europe to end mass migrations is one of them.  You were barking up the wrong tree by implying the Syrians have something to do with this, I hope you can at least see that now. 

[transam]

1 minute ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

The EU only has a few objectives, tackling inequality in Europe to end mass migrations is one of them.  You were barking up the wrong tree by implying the Syrians have something to do with this, I hope you can at least see that now. 

Eeeeeeeeeer, I have never mentioned Syrians anywhere.....

 

I fear you are totally mixed up regarding most stuff....Please find a nice bird or bloke who can........like me....

[The Renegade]

7 minutes ago, transam said:

Eeeeeeeeeer, I have never mentioned Syrians anywhere.....

Not many people are mentioning Syrians

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44613344?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/topics/cnx753je2q4t/europe-migrant-crisis&link_location=live-reporting-story

 

That boat has sailed ?

[nauseus]

59 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m not at all sure where you get the idea I’m ‘pro-Brexit’.

 

And yes, just like in the UK parliament appoints the civil service, but the elected parliament governs.

 

The UK parliament governs the UK and has an absolute sovereign right of veto on all EU laws.

 

There have however, during the Brexit process, been a number of ‘assaults’ on the sovereignty of the UK parliament, these have come from the PM and her cabinet with their attempts to bypass parliament and rule by ‘executive’.

 

Thankfully the House of Lords and ‘enemies of the people’ fought the government and protected the sovereignty of parliment over dictate from the executive.

The UK parliament governs the UK and has an absolute sovereign right of veto on all EU laws.

 

But by the treaties already signed we have to bow to the primacy of EU law. This is all the important stuff.   

[Eloquent pilgrim]

EU SUMMIT TODAY AND TOMORROW

 

The rise of what the leavers like to mockingly call ‘populist’ political parties, and governments, throughout the EU, is only attributable to one single issue. The electorates of these countries have not risen up against fiscal policies, however much they might disagree with them. They have not risen up against the bureaucracy of having countless regulations imposed on their farmers on the growing of red cabbage, nor the untold regulations on the manufacture of toothbrushes. These populations have risen up because they fear, resent and are intimidated by mass uncontrolled immigration. The EU can get away with most things, but not this, they have made a catastrophic miscalculation and it will be their downfall.

 

Hungary, Austria, the Czech Republic, Poland and Slovakia, woke up to this long ago, Italy took a little longer, but are certainly making up for lost time; meanwhile, Merkel, Macron and Junker continue to used their heads as self medicating suppositories, believing that some minor concessions will see the problem vaporise. It will not, it will in fact, like all seismic changes in political establishments, gain momentum at an alarming rate, a rate that will shock the liberal elitists of the EU beyond their wildest nightmare.

 

I believe the EU have been so concerned with making sure that the UK does not get a smooth and mutually beneficial exit, in case it would encourage others to leave, that they have been blindsided to the fact that others are already on the verge.

 

There is an EU summit today and tomorrow, and if they do not promise and then quickly  implement some far ranging reformations, they will witness further dissent and disintegration. It will be very interesting to see what they come up with.