Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[Kieran00001]

1 hour ago, transam said:

Eeeeeeeeeer, I have never mentioned Syrians anywhere.....

 

I fear you are totally mixed up regarding most stuff....Please find a nice bird or bloke who can........like me....

 

Are you unaware of what imply means?  It doesn't take a mention, it takes the reader inferring something, in this case, when you spoke of "what is happening in Germany", I inferred the 1 million Syrians that they have taken in, if not them then who?

[Kieran00001]

54 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Not many people are mentioning Syrians

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44613344?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/topics/cnx753je2q4t/europe-migrant-crisis&link_location=live-reporting-story

 

That boat has sailed ?

 

When people speak of influxes and Germany in same sentence they are generally speaking of Syrians, but clutch at straws every time you realize you were wrong, if it makes you feel secure.

[Chomper Higgot]

39 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The UK parliament governs the UK and has an absolute sovereign right of veto on all EU laws.

 

But by the treaties already signed we have to bow to the primacy of EU law. This is all the important stuff.   

All treaties which were ratified by the U.K. parliament.

[Rimmer]

Several posts and replies have been removed, they include flames, replies and posts with overlarge emoticons.

 

Calling another member names will ensure you are heading for a fall so dont do it.

 

Please also use the standard emoticons there are now over 1000 of the things to choose from, anything else is considered trolling and will be removed

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

I felt you were implying Syrians as when talking about influxes of migrants you suggested I looked at what was happening in Germany.  We all know Germany has just taken in 1 million Syrians but you think I am an idiot for assuming it was the 1 million Syrians you were talking about instead of some other much smaller number of migrants from somewhere else.  If you didn't want to imply Syrians you made an idiotic comment mentioning Germany, darling.  Absolutely astoundingly retarded comments, but nothing new there.

wrt Syrian refugees arriving in Germany/Europe, those supporting  anti-EU arguments fail to address is how those Syrians arrived at Europe borders.

 

The answer to that is they were driven their by Russian backed military action and Russian backed closing of borders to drive the refugees into Europe.

 

Russia is also backing rightwing anti EU groups across Europe.

 

https://m.dw.com/en/nato-commander-russia-uses-syrian-refugees-as-weapon-against-west/a-19086285

 

Brexit plays directly into Russia’s strategic aims of bringing about the disintegration of the EU and Europe as an economic/political/military check on Russian power.

 

It is no accident that so many of the Brexit ‘leaders’ have multiple connections to Russia.

 

Brxit having anything to do with ‘British’ sovereignty is a sick joke.

[tebee]

Conservative Brexit supporter now advising UK firms where to set up in the EU after Brexit .

 

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/06/lord-ashcroft-special-report-malta-makes-a-strong-case-to-host-the-eu-outposts-of-british-companies-after-brexit.html

 

Business and rich people will keep their FoM while us plebs lose it. 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

Conservative Brexit supporter now advising UK firms where to set up in the EU after Brexit .

 

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/06/lord-ashcroft-special-report-malta-makes-a-strong-case-to-host-the-eu-outposts-of-british-companies-after-brexit.html

 

Business and rich people will keep their FoM while us plebs lose it. 

You almost seem excited when you find negativity, Germany is out of the world cup, rejoice. Please promise me if you have a party don't invite me. ?

[nontabury]

7 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Disagree all you want.

 

Read and digest

 

Tony Blair 2000

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/605962.stm

 

House of Commons 2005

 

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2005-11-15c.833.1

 

Let me reiterate. The NHS is not underfunded, despite the annual hysterics over NHS underfunding. It has been badly mismanaged.

 

But keep up the hysterics, blame Brexit.

Correct, and many of the nurses are leaving the NHS in order to work through agencies,were they can obtain a higher salary. This results in the NHS paying more for their employment in addition to adding to the profits of those agencies.

 The same can be said regarding the teaching profession, as many schools are now reliant on supply teachers. Complete mismanagement from the very top.

[The Renegade]

9 minutes ago, tebee said:

Conservative Brexit supporter now advising UK firms where to set up in the EU after Brexit .

 

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/06/lord-ashcroft-special-report-malta-makes-a-strong-case-to-host-the-eu-outposts-of-british-companies-after-brexit.html

 

Business and rich people will keep their FoM while us plebs lose it. 

tebee

 

Do you actually read the articles you post ?

 

Quote

I should make my position abundantly clear: I have long been – and firmly remain – pro-Brexit, and the UK itself will be the best location for nearly all UK companies.

He is offering up an alternative to Paris, Frankfurt and Berlin that the remainers continually shout about.

 

Rich people have always had and always will have FOM. 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Correct, and many of the nurses are leaving the NHS in order to work through agencies,were they can obtain a higher salary. This results in the NHS paying more for their employment in addition to adding to the profits of those agencies.

 The same can be said regarding the teaching profession, as many schools are now reliant on supply teachers. Complete mismanagement from the very top.

Is it mismanagement or a deliberate policy of shifting NHS employees into the private sector, buttering us up slowly so that, when the rump of the NHS becomes privatised, the leap seems more of a small step?

[sandyf]

To avoid confusion, this is the complete item from a news listing.

 

The British Medical Association (BMA) - representing 160,00 doctors -  has today voted in favour of supporting a motion that includes a people's vote on the final Brexit deal.

 

Dr Paul Williams MP, leading supporter of the People’s Vote campaign and a GP, said: “The BMA’s overwhelming vote today to declare that Brexit is a ‘major threat to the NHS’ and to back a People’s Vote on the final Brexit deal is a sign of the growing momentum behind the People’s Vote campaign.

“In doing so, they have joined the Royal College of Nursing and the Royal College of Midwives in demanding the public are given a say on any deal the Prime Minister brings back later this year.

“Nobody voted to damage the NHS in 2016, but already Brexit is causing severe problems in staff recruitment and retention. Instead of the £350 million a week for the NHS we were promised by the Brexiters, we have had cuts and closures as the NHS loses staff and struggles with budgets that are limited by the Brexit economic squeeze.

“If Brexit actually happens it seems certain it will only make things worse – with new drug treatments, investment in research and sustainable funding all under threat.

“The BMA, which represents 160,000 doctors in this country, knows all this better than anyone. Today’s vote is just the start of the campaign to highlight that our NHS needs a People’s Vote on the final Brexit deal.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-politics-live-updates-pmqs-latest-theresa-may-cabinet-brexit-corbyn-tory-labour-liz-truss-a8418756.html

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

Is it mismanagement or a deliberate policy of shifting NHS employees into the private sector, buttering us up slowly so that, when the rump of the NHS becomes privatised, the leap seems more of a small step?

Mismanagement and also unethical agencies.

 

Why work direct for the NHS when you can get £40 and upwards an hour through an agency.

 

Close down these vampire agencies and the NHS would be almost fully staffed.

 

 

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The British Medical Association (BMA) - representing 160,00 doctors -  has today voted in favour of supporting a motion that includes a people's vote on the final Brexit deal.

To avoid any confusion.

 

No matter how many articles are published in Pro - remain media outlets, there will be NO peoples vote on any final Brexit deal.

 

Keep clutching.

[nontabury]

7 hours ago, tebee said:

It is underfunded, we spend less per capita than all the more developed western nations - though I will admit the Tory privatization strategy has not helped.

 

  

Interesting graph, just wondering how much of the USA private medical treatment cost, finishes up in the hands of the insurance companies and in the profits to the hospitals, and how much of these cost are actually spent on patient care. Though you are correct in emphasizing how little per capita we invest in medical care compared to other Western Europeans countries. Could this be because those same countries rely on the U.K paying more of its gdp for the defence of those same countries? If for instance the U.K payed the same amount per capita for its military as the Germans, would the U.K be then in a position to greatly increase spending on the NHS.

[nontabury]

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

For all the EU's faults (and I accept there are many), at least there were controls and frameworks that, in the main, provided a support for the common man. The UK out of the EU will strip away all of those - the US has already stated that there needs to be a wholesale removal of the very regulations that keep our our food safe and our workers in decent jobs. The privatisation of the NHS is just the start.

Perhaps you can tells us all, how the E.U has helped to protect workers rights.

I ask this simple question as a recently returned ex- pat, who is amazed how during the last 20 years their rights have simple been eroded. Is this because of policies of successive U.K governments, probably so, but I am sick of reading posts by remainers, stating that the E.U has, and is protecting their rights.

[sandyf]

8 hours ago, transam said:

Seems the remoaners can relax now as the Brexit is now law, has the Queens go ahead too...

Yes indeed, the leavers are quite determined to give the UK government full authority to screw the citizens into the ground.

Do people seriously think that left to their own devices the UK government would have provided the same rights to workers as they have now.

Do people seriously think that left to their own devices the UK government would have provided the same level of funding to places like Manchester and various other projects as has come from the EU.

Do people seriously believe that post brexit the UK government will give the same (any?) consideration and funding to deprived areas and deserving causes as the EU.

The brexit dividend is a non starter and ministers are now queuing up with cap in hand, beware the autumn statement.

The UK government acts like a spoilt child and is in desperate need of a guardian to keep some form of control. They have a documented track record of getting it wrong,  and there is nothing to indicate that will ever change.

 

Well done brexiteers, you may have won the right to make everyone a loser.

[The Renegade]

Just now, sandyf said:

Yes indeed, the leavers are quite determined to give the UK government full authority to screw the citizens into the ground.

All I have heard since 2010 is how the Tories screw the people, screw the NHS and screw the Country. 

 

So what actual difference does it make if the UK is in or out of the EU ?

[transam]

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Yes indeed, the leavers are quite determined to give the UK government full authority to screw the citizens into the ground.

Do people seriously think that left to their own devices the UK government would have provided the same rights to workers as they have now.

Do people seriously think that left to their own devices the UK government would have provided the same level of funding to places like Manchester and various other projects as has come from the EU.

Do people seriously believe that post brexit the UK government will give the same (any?) consideration and funding to deprived areas and deserving causes as the EU.

The brexit dividend is a non starter and ministers are now queuing up with cap in hand, beware the autumn statement.

The UK government acts like a spoilt child and is in desperate need of a guardian to keep some form of control. They have a documented track record of getting it wrong,  and there is nothing to indicate that will ever change.

 

Well done brexiteers, you may have won the right to make everyone a loser.

Losers create themselves chummy,...Don't need any help...?

[sandyf]

14 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Perhaps you can tells us all, how the E.U has helped to protect workers rights.

I ask this simple question as a recently returned ex- pat, who is amazed how during the last 20 years their rights have simple been eroded. Is this because of policies of successive U.K governments, probably so, but I am sick of reading posts by remainers, stating that the E.U has, and is protecting their rights.

Every EU worker has certain minimum rights relating to:

• health and safety at work: general rights and obligations, workplaces, work equipment, specific risks and vulnerable workers
• equal opportunities for women and men: equal treatment at work, pregnancy, maternity leave, parental leave
• protection against discrimination based on sex, race, religion, age, disability and sexual orientation
• labour law: part-time work, fixed-term contracts, working hours, employment of young people, informing and consulting employees

Individual EU countries must make sure that their national laws protect these rights laid down by EU employment laws (Directives).

If you feel that your rights have not been respected, the first place to go is a labour inspectorate, employment tribunal, etc. in your country.

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?langId=en&catId=82

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

All treaties which were ratified by the U.K. parliament.

These treaties should have been put to the electorate first. Instead some politicians decided,successfully to pull the wool over our eyes. Then we waked up, and became aware of what had actually happened. This led to the the referendum.And the thinking people voted.

Edited June 28, 2018 by nontabury

[vogie]

11 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Well done brexiteers, you may have won the right to make everyone a loser.

You must keep your chin up Sandy, remember, "holding on to anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die."

 

From spiritually thinking.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, nontabury said:

These treaties shoul have been put to the electorate first. Instead some politicians decided,successfully to pull the wool over our eyes. Then we waked up, and had the referendum.

There you displaying your ignorance of how British government works.

 

The UK is party to over 14,000 treaties, if the government were required to put each to a plebiscite the nation would be spending most of its time voting.

 

Fortunately somebody came up with the smart idea of Parliament a with elected Members of Parliament to represent the citizens.

 

It’s a cracking good idea, you should read up on how it works.

[Kieran00001]

8 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Perhaps you can tells us all, how the E.U has helped to protect workers rights.

I ask this simple question as a recently returned ex- pat, who is amazed how during the last 20 years their rights have simple been eroded. Is this because of policies of successive U.K governments, probably so, but I am sick of reading posts by remainers, stating that the E.U has, and is protecting their rights.

 

You want to know about something that you don't know about but then go on to tell us that you are sick of hearing about it, which is it?

 

I will tell you anyway.

The UK tried to stop the EU regulations that provides a minimum of 48 hours consecutive rest a fortnight, but they lost, the EU protects this right.

The EU ensures that all employees receive at least 20 days holiday per year, the British government is free to reduce the number from the current 28 but the EU protects our right to at least 20.

The EU forced the UK to amend law to provide pay based on value, meaning a woman cannot be paid less than a man for the same duties.

The EU improved the UK's maternity leave, the protect our right to a minimum of 6 weeks on full pay.

The Eu also brought us paternity leave, they do not discriminate on sex so their protection extends to fathers.

The UK has implemented EU laws on workers discrimination, which prior to the UK was down to the worker to prove, but thanks to the EU the protection provided means that the burden of proof is now on the employer.

The EU protects employees by giving unlimited payouts in discrimination cases, something the UK fought to put a cap on.

The EU protects the rights of agency staff ensuring they are treated with equality, something the UK fought against.

Also the majority of new H&S laws come directly from the EU.

 

If you are concerned that the British government has been eroding away at workers rights you are not wrong, but the EU does its best to prevent that happening, there is only so much our government can take from us, until we leave, then its a free for all.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

29 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Perhaps you can tells us all, how the E.U has helped to protect workers rights.

I ask this simple question as a recently returned ex- pat, who is amazed how during the last 20 years their rights have simple been eroded. Is this because of policies of successive U.K governments, probably so, but I am sick of reading posts by remainers, stating that the E.U has, and is protecting their rights.

If you are concerned over the erosion of worker’s rights then start paying attention to what the stories, and in particular the pro-Brexit stories, have to say about post-Brexit deregulation of worker’s rights.

[sandyf]

26 minutes ago, vogie said:

You must keep your chin up Sandy, remember, "holding on to anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die."

 

From spiritually thinking.

Strong argument maybe, but not anger, I am too old for all that, by the time the dust has settled there is every chance I shall have been burnt to a crisp.

My concern is for those that will follow. My son is now under a dark cloud and regrets his vote to leave, listened to the MIL not me, the company he works for may well relocate to Dublin. With a new grandson the MIL is also singing a different tune.

It is ordinary people that are going to suffer the most, and many like my son had absolutely no idea what it could lead to when they put the mark on the ballot paper.

Edited June 28, 2018 by sandyf

[sandyf]

19 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

If you are concerned over the erosion of worker’s rights then start paying attention to what the stories, and in particular the pro-Brexit stories, have to say about post-Brexit deregulation of worker’s rights.

Quite. It is almost a foregone certainty that the Agency Workers Directive will be removed from UK law at the earliest opportunity following the loss of protection from the ECJ.

[Jip99]

4 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Strong argument maybe, but not anger, I am too old for all that, by the time the dust has settled there is every chance I shall have been burnt to a crisp.

My concern is for those that will follow. My son is now under a dark cloud and regrets his vote to leave, listened to the MIL not me, the company he works for may well relocate to Dublin. With a new grandson the MIL is also singing a different tune.

It is ordinary people that are going to suffer the most, and many like my son had absolutely no idea what it could lead to when they put the mark on the ballot paper.

 

 

I , for one, hope you live long enough to see a satisfactory outcome.

 

 

"May well" does not necessarily mean they will.

 

 

There are a lot worse places than Dublin. ?

[nontabury]

9 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Every EU worker has certain minimum rights relating to:

• health and safety at work: general rights and obligations, workplaces, work equipment, specific risks and vulnerable workers
• equal opportunities for women and men: equal treatment at work, pregnancy, maternity leave, parental leave
• protection against discrimination based on sex, race, religion, age, disability and sexual orientation
• labour law: part-time work, fixed-term contracts, working hours, employment of young people, informing and consulting employees

Individual EU countries must make sure that their national laws protect these rights laid down by EU employment laws (Directives).

If you feel that your rights have not been respected, the first place to go is a labour inspectorate, employment tribunal, etc. in your country.

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?langId=en&catId=82

Labour law. part- time work, fixed - term contracts, working hours.

 

Do you honestly think that these are for the benefit of the lower paid workers?

Because as a volunteer at a local Citizens Advice office, I can assure you that is not so. I have now become convinced that these E.U. regulations are for the benefit of the employers. In the area that I now live in, most of the workers seem to be on a rolling 6 month contract, giving absolutely no security to the workers.

Further more these same E.U regulations, disadvantage the workers in many ways. Example the other day a family came in to seek my advice, on being refused a mortgage, due to the fact the Wife’s earning would not 

be taken into consideration, as she’s on one of these E.U inspired temporary rolling contract. Therefore they are stuck in private rental accommodation. With little chance of getting on the ladder,never mind climbing up it.

 Working hours on these same E.U inspired contracts are at the discretion of the employer,this week maybe 30 hrs, maybe 20 hours or maybe just 10hrs. All at a rate of £7.83 per hour. Work the figures out yourself, could you live on these amounts? I think you’ll find the answer is NO. So who can survive on these amounts. Well the answer is, immigrants from Eastern Europe, who are prepared to sleep on the floor in overcrowded accommodation, while taking advantage of the many benefits on offer. And as I’ve already posted, they often only work for 6 months at a time,untill they hit the tax treashold, when they then return home.

  But why should this bother the middle and upper classes,they can take the selfish view that they are nor disadvantaged, in fact they benefit in obtaining goods or services at a lower rate,than otherwise would be the case.

 

 

[tebee]

2 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Labour law. part- time work, fixed - term contracts, working hours.

 

Do you honestly think that these are for the benefit of the lower paid workers?

Because as a volunteer at a local Citizens Advice office, I can assure you that is not so. I have now become convinced that these E.U. regulations are for the benefit of the employers. In the area that I now live in, most of the workers seem to be on a rolling 6 month contract, giving absolutely no security to the workers.

Further more these same E.U regulations, disadvantage the workers in many ways. Example the other day a family came in to seek my advice, on being refused a mortgage, due to the fact the Wife’s earning would not 

be taken into consideration, as she’s on one of these E.U inspired temporary rolling contract. Therefore they are stuck in private rental accommodation. With little chance of getting on the ladder,never mind climbing up it.

 Working hours on these same E.U inspired contracts are at the discretion of the employer,this week maybe 30 hrs, maybe 20 hours or maybe just 10hrs. All at a rate of £7.83 per hour. Work the figures out yourself, could you live on these amounts? I think you’ll find the answer is NO. So who can survive on these amounts. Well the answer is, immigrants from Eastern Europe, who are prepared to sleep on the floor in overcrowded accommodation, while taking advantage of the many benefits on offer. And as I’ve already posted, they often only work for 6 months at a time,untill they hit the tax treashold, when they then return home.

  But why should this bother the middle and upper classes,they can take the selfish view that they are nor disadvantaged, in fact they benefit in obtaining goods or services at a lower rate,than otherwise would be the case.

 

 

But again this is the UK taking the EU's provisions as a minimum - In France for instance you would have give a temporary worker a minimum 1 year contract for 35 hours a week with holiday entitlement. If you renew this 2 times it's automatically converted into a permanent contract .

[sandyf]

2 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Labour law. part- time work, fixed - term contracts, working hours.

 

Do you honestly think that these are for the benefit of the lower paid workers?

Because as a volunteer at a local Citizens Advice office, I can assure you that is not so. I have now become convinced that these E.U. regulations are for the benefit of the employers. In the area that I now live in, most of the workers seem to be on a rolling 6 month contract, giving absolutely no security to the workers.

Further more these same E.U regulations, disadvantage the workers in many ways. Example the other day a family came in to seek my advice, on being refused a mortgage, due to the fact the Wife’s earning would not 

be taken into consideration, as she’s on one of these E.U inspired temporary rolling contract. Therefore they are stuck in private rental accommodation. With little chance of getting on the ladder,never mind climbing up it.

 Working hours on these same E.U inspired contracts are at the discretion of the employer,this week maybe 30 hrs, maybe 20 hours or maybe just 10hrs. All at a rate of £7.83 per hour. Work the figures out yourself, could you live on these amounts? I think you’ll find the answer is NO. So who can survive on these amounts. Well the answer is, immigrants from Eastern Europe, who are prepared to sleep on the floor in overcrowded accommodation, while taking advantage of the many benefits on offer. And as I’ve already posted, they often only work for 6 months at a time,untill they hit the tax treashold, when they then return home.

  But why should this bother the middle and upper classes,they can take the selfish view that they are nor disadvantaged, in fact they benefit in obtaining goods or services at a lower rate,than otherwise would be the case.

 

 

I can only assume that you believe people were better off before the Working Time Directive, many would disagree.

Contracts of employment are separate issue altogether.