‘Progressive’ new party takes a step forward

[baboon]

1 minute ago, throwaw1984 said:

 

The working class is bitching and complaining in every country - that's just a given. The demand for redistributionist policies is the only method low IQ people can hope to prosper. And opportunists like the Forward Future party like to fuel that resentment of the lower classes. It's been done time and time again in history and it led to the genocidal horrors of the 20th century.

 

I don't have any disdain for the lower classes. It's were I come from. I've cleaned toilets for a living at some point in my life. But I'm not going to ignore history and biological reality.

Next time ask the teacher or train driver, if they'd rather be teaching or driving trains in Cambodia, Laos, etc

 

...but you aren't left or right wing. Mister, you are about as far right as it gets. Fair enough and all that, but don't p!ss on my shoes and tell me it is raining...

[GarryP]

1 minute ago, throwaw1984 said:

 

The working class is bitching and complaining in every country - that's just a given. The demand for redistributionist policies is the only method low IQ people can hope to prosper. And opportunists like the Forward Future party like to fuel that resentment of the lower classes. It's been done time and time again in history and it led to the genocidal horrors of the 20th century.

 

I don't have any disdain for the lower classes. It's were I come from. I've cleaned toilets for a living at some point in my life. But I'm not going to ignore history and biological reality.

Next time ask the teacher or train driver, if they'd rather be teaching or driving trains in Cambodia, Laos, etc

 

That post says it all. All your hypotheses and theories mean nothing in light of your bias against or disdain of the lower classes.   

[throwaw1984]

1 minute ago, GarryP said:

That post says it all. All your hypotheses and theories mean nothing in light of your bias against or disdain of the lower classes.   

 

First of all that's an ad hominem and a weak argument. But convenient to dismiss me outright, isn't it?

Second, like I said I come from a working class background myself. By work class I mean blue collar, manual, low-pay labor (it's a stupid Marxist term anyway). You'd be surprised how many working class people think just the way I do. Publicly they will still ask for handouts, complain about high prices, etc. I did the same, of course, it's a struggle for survival by any means necessary.

Like I said, I'm not going to ignore biological reality. The IQ bell curve is real and so is Price's law when it comes to human achievement. In simple terms: There's a biological reason for the existence of an elite. I'm not saying that this is an ideal. Once the Gini coefficient becomes to large, it can lead to violent turmoil. What we need is the rule of law and equality of opportunity - both of which are severely lacking in Thailand. I'll give you that.

What we don't need is opportunists and champagne socialists fueling class resentment out of bitterness or greed. The socialists don't like the poor. They just hate the rich.

 

[chainarong]

The problem is they start with good intentions then see the trappings and it's down wards from there......................................................................

[throwaw1984]

1 minute ago, chainarong said:

The problem is they start with good intentions then see the trappings and it's down wards from there......................................................................

 

That might be true for the naive students and even some the college professors. I've been loosely affiliated with the Antifa in my home country in my youth and I've met some genuinely good people there.

But the upper echelons know exactly what their doing, like that trust fund baby Mr. Juangroongruangkit

[bannork]

3 hours ago, Denim said:

 

^  That's your first post on TV ????

 

Who was your last incarnation ?

Stephen 100?

[baboon]

4 minutes ago, bannork said:

Stephen 100?

Unlikely. This gentleman can spell, for a start...

[bannork]

1 hour ago, throwaw1984 said:

 

In hindsight, I should've made my displeasure with the current political situation in Thailand more obvious. But then again, I was not sure how far am I allowed to go without getting banned on this board. I think that fact alone speaks volumes.

 

 

I don't mean to offend you but "trying to make a difference" is very simplistic thinking when it comes to politics. Those are meaningless buzzwords.

Here's what might happen in the near future:

 

Scenario A (more likely):

 

The Future Forward party is going nowhere. They might make a few headlines, maybe even have some protests here and there but ultimately they will remain insignificant or even be banned. That anti-royalist lawyer they have is a huge liability. Next year will will probably get an election here which will be won by a new party spearheaded by Prayut or someone who will tow the party line. As long as Thailand is booming economically (and the plebs get enough of the breadcrumbs), people will vote for the status quo. Also China prefers the status quo and their influence is undeniable.

 

Scenario B (less likely):

 

The Future Forward party gains momentum due to large financial backing and help from the media. Thailand's current gov is not doing itself any favors with the luxury watch scandal or the panther poaching scandal. If the economy takes a nosedive, things might get ugly very quickly. We might see protests and riots again, fueled by misguided students, former red shirt opportunists etc. History has shown time and time again that violent uprisings almost always have disastrous outcomes.

Quite frankly I'd rather have the current system stay in place for a little longer than see blood in the streets again. That's why I'm railing against this new party so passionately. Anyone who has studied history should know that peace and prosperity are favorable to misguided upheaval and chaos.

 

You've asked how to solve the problem...

In the long run I hope the message of economic and personal liberty will spread and infect even authoritarian countries like China and Thailand. The internet will make sure of that. The old gatekeepers like the mainstream media are fading away. The truth becomes harder and harder to suppress. Zuckerberg, Bezos and their ilk are trying to put the genie back in the bottle with their Orwellian style censorship, but that too will fail thanks to censorship-resistant technologies like the blockchain. If we don't blow ourselves up (looking at North Korea), we are heading for a bright future. Read some Steven Pinker's works and you will see, that despite all the doom and gloom (and also some legitimate concerns), we are living in the most prosperous time ever.

 

 

 

In your scenario A., Prayudth wins an election with a new party. I don't see where you think the votes for that are going to come from. Pheua Thai will walk over Issan and the north as usual, the south will be the  Democrats and Future Forward may pinch votes from both the Democrats and Pheua Thai in the urban areas.

It was said Prayuth was relying on the Agriculture Ministry to boost crop prices to win the farmers' votes. But nothing showing so far, and after his angry outburst at a southern fisherman on his trip to Songkhla, his personal popularity sank in the south even further.

Even General Prem told him he had used up nearly all of the former goodwill he had.

[throwaw1984]

1 minute ago, bannork said:

In your scenario A., Prayudth wins an election with a new party. I don't see where you think the votes for that are going to come from. Pheua Thai will walk over Issan and the north as usual, the south will be the  Democrats and Future Forward may pinch votes from both the Democrats and Pheua Thai in the urban areas.

It was said Prayuth was relying on the Agriculture Ministry to boost crop prices to win the farmers' votes. But nothing showing so far, and after his angry outburst at a southern fisherman on his trip to Songkhla, his personal popularity sank in the south even further.

Even General Prem told him he had used up nearly all of the former goodwill he had.

 

Thank you for that insight. I must admit I don't follow local politics that closely. My rants are mainly targeted at the introduction of neo-marxist identity politics in Thailand, spearheaded by the Future Forward crowd.

Would you say that a win by Pheua Thai or the Democrats would still more or less mean status quo in Thailand? Or do we have to expect turmoil like many times before?

[Eligius]

1 minute ago, bannork said:

In your scenario A., Prayudth wins an election with a new party. I don't see where you think the votes for that are going to come from. Pheua Thai will walk over Issan and the north as usual, the south will be the  Democrats and Future Forward may pinch votes from both the Democrats and Pheua Thai in the urban areas.

It was said Prayuth was relying on the Agriculture Ministry to boost crop prices to win the farmers' votes. But nothing showing so far, and after his angry outburst at a southern fisherman on his trip to Songkhla, his personal popularity sank in the south even further.

Even General Prem told him he had used up nearly all of the former goodwill he had.

Prayut and gang will engineer/ manipulate the whole thing and lie, lie, lie their way into continued power. They don't need popular support. They have the guns and tanks and ALL the institutions of power at their fingertips. There is no way Prayut is going to admit that he has been beaten by a Red-Shirt orientated party (if such a party will be allowed - which would win hands-down, of course). He will just lie about the results (as, probably, with the 'Constitution' referendum results  - which no one can independently check the veracity of)

As long as the Thais comply with the present power-structures, Prayut's 'victory' is assured. But it is an immoral one (how could it be otherwise with such a creature?).

[bannork]

5 minutes ago, Eligius said:

Prayut and gang will engineer/ manipulate the whole thing and lie, lie, lie their way into continued power. They don't need popular support. They have the guns and tanks and ALL the institutions of power at their fingertips. There is no way Prayut is going to admit that he has been beaten by a Red-Shirt orientated party (if such a party will be allowed - which would win hands-down, of course). He will just lie about the results (as, probably, with the 'Constitution' referendum results  - which no one can independently check the veracity of)

As long as the Thais comply with the present power-structures, Prayut's 'victory' is assured. But it is an immoral one (how could it be otherwise with such a creature?).

Prayut and gang as you call them are not the entire Thai military and elite. Others may not be pleased with them.

 

 

[Srikcir]

17 minutes ago, throwaw1984 said:

My rants are mainly targeted at the introduction of neo-marxist identity politics in Thailand, spearheaded by the Future Forward crowd.

I don't agree with your conclusion, but what would be different with a neo-marxist party in Thai politics? No different politics from China, Vietnam and Laos. In terms of favoring nationalism, cultism and authoritarian governance doesn't seem much different than a government that rules through an unelected leader with absolute power, no matter how benevolent such power may seem.

Introduction of neo-marxist dialog in Thai politics might actually motivate Thai citizens more towards pursuance of better (to be gracious) society as they begin to understand the lack of contrast between the history of Thai governance and neo-marxism in their neighbors. 

 

[Eligius]

26 minutes ago, bannork said:

Prayut and gang as you call them are not the entire Thai military and elite. Others may not be pleased with them.

 

 

True. But similar undemocratic forces will likely still hold the reins of power for a long while to come. It is unlikely to be representative of the will of the Thai people. As I say, the Thais have only one freedom to lose - and it does not matter whether it is lost at the hands of a Prayut or a similar anti-democrat. Freedom is still lost.

[Eric Loh]

43 minutes ago, throwaw1984 said:

Thank you for that insight. I must admit I don't follow local politics that closely. My rants are mainly targeted at the introduction of neo-marxist identity politics in Thailand, spearheaded by the Future Forward crowd.

I thought the Future Forward Party make it very clear that they are pro democracy and much against dominance of class division due to rich capitalists. That seem nothing close to neo-marxist. 

[GarryP]

34 minutes ago, bannork said:

Prayut and gang as you call them are not the entire Thai military and elite. Others may not be pleased with them.

 

 

I have heard rumblings myself (that is I know people with family among the upper ranks of the army) . There are a number of generals who are not happy with military involvement in politics. Unfortunately, they do not do anything about it. 

[Eligius]

7 minutes ago, GarryP said:

I have heard rumblings myself (that is I know people with family among the upper ranks of the army) . There are a number of generals who are not happy with military involvement in politics. Unfortunately, they do not do anything about it. 

'I have heard rumblings .... unfortunately, they do not do anything about it.' 

And therein lies the heart of the problem. Just grumbling and whispering about the autocratic, anti-democratic rule here will not get rid of the oppression. Freedom is only truly gained when it is struggled for - at great personal risk. But 'rumbling and grumbling' will shift nothing at all ...

[GarryP]

1 hour ago, throwaw1984 said:

 

First of all that's an ad hominem and a weak argument. But convenient to dismiss me outright, isn't it?

Second, like I said I come from a working class background myself. By work class I mean blue collar, manual, low-pay labor (it's a stupid Marxist term anyway). You'd be surprised how many working class people think just the way I do. Publicly they will still ask for handouts, complain about high prices, etc. I did the same, of course, it's a struggle for survival by any means necessary.

Like I said, I'm not going to ignore biological reality. The IQ bell curve is real and so is Price's law when it comes to human achievement. In simple terms: There's a biological reason for the existence of an elite. I'm not saying that this is an ideal. Once the Gini coefficient becomes to large, it can lead to violent turmoil. What we need is the rule of law and equality of opportunity - both of which are severely lacking in Thailand. I'll give you that.

What we don't need is opportunists and champagne socialists fueling class resentment out of bitterness or greed. The socialists don't like the poor. They just hate the rich.

 

Yes it was.  Apologies. 

 

Lets just say we disagree. You would have the status quo remain as is, whereas I would not. I do not believe either the Democrats or Peu Thai are in a situation to take the country out of the morass it finds itself in. I believe a new choice might be the way forward. However, I also believe that the so called elite or people in power will do everything to prevent that. 

 

Perhaps, if the junta tried to stay in power longer by further delaying the elections, that would help move things along as more and more people would start to complain. As it is, former supporters are starting to complain. 

 

PS Class resentment is already here and the longer the people outside the cities feel disenfranchised the more that resentment is going to burn. 

[bannork]

14 minutes ago, Eligius said:

True. But similar undemocratic forces will likely still hold the reins of power for a long while to come. It is unlikely to be representative of the will of the Thai people. As I say, the Thais have only one freedom to lose - and it does not matter whether it is lost at the hands of a Prayut or a similar anti-democrat. Freedom is still lost.

I'm not so sure freedom is lost.. I'm sure as this year proceeds the demands for an election will become stronger and stronger. Especially after June when Prayuth promised the established parties meetings could reconvene. Ir will be difficult for him to keep using the old chestnut about disorder and civil strife preventing politics as usual.

Social media is prevalent nowadays,ideas can spread a lot quicker and are harder to suppress.

 I liked it how Future Forward invited the army and police to attend their introduction,. We're all friends here, disarm potential foes with charm. 5555

[Eric Loh]

15 minutes ago, GarryP said:

I have heard rumblings myself (that is I know people with family among the upper ranks of the army) . There are a number of generals who are not happy with military involvement in politics. Unfortunately, they do not do anything about it. 

Not in 1977. Coup within a coup that got rid of a unpopular PM. Hmm the circumstances now seem similar. 

[Eligius]

3 minutes ago, bannork said:

 ... Ir will be difficult for Prayut to keep using the old chestnut about disorder and civil strife preventing politics as usual.

 

But he will go on using that old chestnut - and a lot of other (new) ones! Think how any reasonable person would have thought  that it 'would be difficult for Prawit to keep on requesting more time for his watch explanation' - and yet he does just that!

 

Prayut and Gang (and the powers behind them) will magnify, invent, concoct ANY threat or problem to prevent a truly fair and free election from taking place. His track record over the past four years speaks for itself!

[bannork]

1 minute ago, Eligius said:

But he will go on using that old chestnut - and a lot of other (new) ones! Think how any reasonable person would have thought  that it 'would be difficult for Prawit to keep on requesting more time for his watch explanation' - and yet he does just that!

 

Prayut and Gang (and the powers behind them) will magnify, invent, concoct ANY threat or problem to prevent a truly fair and free election from taking place. His track record over the past four years speaks for itself!

True but no one believes them anymore! A new weapons find in a rice field. some old grenades uncovered in a apartment. Koti is behind it!  Oh, wait a minute, isn't he supposed to be dead?!

No credibility is a serious handicap, and don't forget how much media there is waiting to pounce on and dissect every word.

[mfd101]

12 hours ago, YetAnother said:

don't need revolution, just need better people in leadership, near opposites from arrogant,corrupt,dishonest,backward-thinking,autocratic military generals

And what would that be if not a revolution?

[scorecard]

21 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Not in 1977. Coup within a coup that got rid of a unpopular PM. Hmm the circumstances now seem similar. 

 

Come on el, as you've done before your just scaremongering, the event you mention, decades back, did include some nasty violence.

 

The NCPO have many faults, but has the NCPO actually killed anybody? Have they threatened violence against the public? NO.

 

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by scorecard

[scorecard]

17 minutes ago, Eligius said:

But he will go on using that old chestnut - and a lot of other (new) ones! Think how any reasonable person would have thought  that it 'would be difficult for Prawit to keep on requesting more time for his watch explanation' - and yet he does just that!

 

Prayut and Gang (and the powers behind them) will magnify, invent, concoct ANY threat or problem to prevent a truly fair and free election from taking place. His track record over the past four years speaks for itself!

 

Off topic, off topic,

 

Why not look for some positives in this new guy, give him a chance, anything that can make the old colours parties irrelevant is a big plus, support the new guy, help him to move the country into a new picture. 

 

 

[Terek]

everything with words - progressive , democratic, for people , I find disgusting, words I like conservative, libertarian, constitutional ...

[throwaw1984]

1 hour ago, Srikcir said:

I don't agree with your conclusion, but what would be different with a neo-marxist party in Thai politics? No different politics from China, Vietnam and Laos. In terms of favoring nationalism, cultism and authoritarian governance doesn't seem much different than a government that rules through an unelected leader with absolute power, no matter how benevolent such power may seem.

Introduction of neo-marxist dialog in Thai politics might actually motivate Thai citizens more towards pursuance of better (to be gracious) society as they begin to understand the lack of contrast between the history of Thai governance and neo-marxism in their neighbors. 

 

 

If you want to see what a small dose of neo-marxist ideology does to a country look at Western Europe, especially Germany, France, Sweden the UK:

 

• Utter destruction of any sense of national pride and shared history. Native inhabitants are being taught from an early age to be ashamed of their country's past (e.g. colonialism) and that any display of patriotism is outdated and chauvinistic. The video of Angela Merkel being disgusted at a German flag given to her, speaks volumes.
• Borders lost all meaning. The EU did a lot of damage there by robbing poorer nations (e.g. Poland) of some of their best and brightest so they can work for lower wages in richer EU nations (e.g. UK). The coup de grace however was letting millions of unvetted migrants from incompatible cultures pour in as "refugees" in the recent years.
• The latter is also the reason for a enormously dangerous erosion of the rule of law. There are no-go zones for the police in some cities. Instead you get Sharia law and even Sharia police. Violent crime, especially towards women is skyrocketing. Despicable acts of Islamic Terror are happening with shocking regularity.
• Personal freedoms and freedom of speech are being trampled upon. Everyone is being spied on through their computers and phones. People are getting arrested for mean Tweets. George Orwell's wrongthink has become reality.
• 3rd wave feminism is poisoning the relation between men and women and is completely eroding family values. Conspiracy theories about an imaginary oppressive "patriarchy" are spreading. Single motherhood is spreading and is incentivized by the government which has disastrous consequences for children, especially boys.
• Birth rates of native Europeans are plummeting while the Muslim population is skyrocketing. A mathematically irrefutable shift in demographics is happening. High IQ native population is being replaced by a low IQ immigrant population. Christianity is being replaced by Islam and nihilistic materialism.

We will either have a significant islamification of Western Europe in a couple of decades (the statistics and the studies paint a clear picture) or there will be massive push back from the far right. Neither of which is good.

 

If you want to see what a large dose of Marxism does, look at Venezuela. Hunting rats for food in the streets must be fun.
 

Edited March 16, 2018 by throwaw1984

[Denim]

2 hours ago, baboon said:

I can. You are right. So far to the right I need binoculars. 

Hubble telescope more like.

[Denim]

22 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

Come on el, as you've done before your just scaremongering, the event you mention, decades back, did include some nasty violence.

 

The NCPO have many faults, but has the NCPO actually killed anybody? Have they threatened violence against the public? NO.

 

 

 

Prayuth threatened to execute reporters but his excuse was he was just being playful , being unable to follow his hearts desire since these days we have social media.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-thailand-junta-media/thai-pm-prayuth-warns-media-says-has-power-to-execute-reporters-idUSKBN0ML0RV20150325

 

Then again there was the assassination of Kotee by unknown  people, which the junta did not bother to ask Laos about ( and why would they ).

 

If they have not murdered people they have certainly intimidated many, even people whose only kind of protest was eating a sandwich or reading George Orwell in public.

 

 

[Eligius]

Just now, Denim said:

 

Prayuth threatened to execute reporters but his excuse was he was just being playful , being unable to follow his hearts desire since these days we have social media.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-thailand-junta-media/thai-pm-prayuth-warns-media-says-has-power-to-execute-reporters-idUSKBN0ML0RV20150325

 

Then again there was the assassination of Kotee by unknown  people, which the junta did not bother to ask Laos about ( and why would they ).

 

If they have not murdered people they have certainly intimidated many, even people whose only kind of protest was eating a sandwich or reading George Orwell in public.

 

 

Yes. And don't forget that it was PRAYUT who was behind the massacre of more than 90 civilian Thai Red Shirt protesters in 2010 ...

[Denim]

3 minutes ago, Eligius said:

Yes. And don't forget that it was PRAYUT who was behind the massacre of more than 90 civilian Thai Red Shirt protesters in 2010 ...

Indeed ,forgotten by some posters.

 

But Throwaway , our new ' concerned citizen ' thinks :

 

Quite frankly I'd rather have the current system stay in place for a little longer than see blood in the streets again.

 

Well , I am sure everyone , even the familiar protagonists , would agree with that. However, it conveniently ignores the fact that it was the current regime and it's ever faithful lackeys that were the direct cause of there being blood on the streets in the first place, a necessary excuse for them to ' save the country '.

 

It has always been the yellow shirts who start taking to the streets if their horse ( poodle more correctly ) loses at the polls.  Finding this intolerable , the red camp reacts .....and presto you have conflict where there should be none if everyone would abide by the results of elections.