Online Teaching

[Jimjim1968]

Most people I know have hit the 6 year visa waiver and now teach online only. 

 

They appear to make substantially more money too.

 

Is this the way to go?

[anon537687643]

Uh! So not in Thailand ? Online teaching is for anyone with an internet anywhere!


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[Loaded]

Most online teaching in Thailand is illegal.

 

The teacher works in Thailand without the required non-immigrant visa and work permit. The teacher doesn't declare their income to the Thai tax authorities.

 

The Chinese company earns income from their overseas operations in Thailand. They fail to provide the required visas and work permit for their staff. They avoid Thai tax on their revenues. They don't have a Thai school license. I could go on.

 

It won't continue for much longer once the Thai government realizes what's happening under their noses.

 

 

[mommysboy]

17 hours ago, Loaded said:

Most online teaching in Thailand is illegal.

 

The teacher works in Thailand without the required non-immigrant visa and work permit. The teacher doesn't declare their income to the Thai tax authorities.

 

The Chinese company earns income from their overseas operations in Thailand. They fail to provide the required visas and work permit for their staff. They avoid Thai tax on their revenues. They don't have a Thai school license. I could go on.

 

It won't continue for much longer once the Thai government realizes what's happening under their noses.

 

 

I imagine it is a complex issue but my understanding differs.  If the teacher is working for an offshore registered entity, is not teaching Thai students in Thailand, and the money is not being paid in to a Thai bank account then it is likely not deemed as working in Thailand.  The only high profile case in Thailand happened where online workers were actually working from from an office in Thailand and were being hired as employees in Thailand.  There is a difference.  Even if it is illegal, I somehow imagine internet police have much bigger fish to fry.  The cost of tracking one individual online who is teaching would be unjustifiable. Yet, Thailand is renowned for the ludicrous.

 

Is it the way to go?  Well I don't think it pays much unless you put in significant effort and could not be considered a stable position. But this is a business that looks set to boom as it tends to be much cheaper for the student and more convenient.

 

As the OP points out, Thailand has made it increasingly difficult for the standard ESL teacher to make an honest and simple living.  Anything that keeps a teacher out of a sweatshop school is of benefit, if only as a stop gap imo.

[dfdgfdfdgs]

17 hours ago, Loaded said:

Most online teaching in Thailand is illegal.

 

 

Who gives a toss when it's not something that is ever going to matter and that nobody anywhere cares about.

[Loaded]

It's irrelevant whether the money is paid outside of Thailand or not, you need a work permit. Volunteers aren't paid anything but if they are caught without the appropriate visa/wp, they may be chucked out the country via Immigration prison.

 

I guess it's also breaking the Thai Computer Act as well. IE breaking the law by using the Internet.

 

 

[jenny2017]

4 hours ago, Loaded said:

It's irrelevant whether the money is paid outside of Thailand or not, you need a work permit. Volunteers aren't paid anything but if they are caught without the appropriate visa/wp, they may be chucked out the country via Immigration prison.

 

I guess it's also breaking the Thai Computer Act as well. IE breaking the law by using the Internet.

 

 

Even when Loaded is usually always loaded, he's damn right about it. 

[mommysboy]

7 hours ago, Loaded said:

It's irrelevant whether the money is paid outside of Thailand or not, you need a work permit. Volunteers aren't paid anything but if they are caught without the appropriate visa/wp, they may be chucked out the country via Immigration prison.

 

I guess it's also breaking the Thai Computer Act as well. IE breaking the law by using the Internet.

 

 

There have been people doing sites like ebay for years from Thailand, and plenty of tourists and long stayers buying and selling shares in UK.  It's simply not regarded as illegal for any reason- probably regarded as out of Thai jurisdiction and not really of its concern either.  That's the long and short of it.  But this is Thailand and they could and sometimes do what they like.

 

Luckily, no one much gives a toss as one poster said, and it is costly to track anyway.

 

I dare say you are right about the Thai Computer Act.  My impression is that it is so 'broad sword' that anything could stick.  But what makes you think so?

 

I really do think you are speculating on something where there appears to be no known problem.

Edited March 20, 2018 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, jenny2017 said:

Even when Loaded is usually always loaded, he's damn right about it. 

 

If you say so.  Maybe theoretically- if someone really wanted to push the issue.  After all, they managed to stick tax evasion on someone vaping, so anything is possible in Gagaland.

 

I can't see Interpol providing much help.......

 

 

[Rhys]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

There have been people doing sites like ebay for years from Thailand, and plenty of tourists and long stayers buying and selling shares in UK.  It's simply not regarded as illegal for any reason- probably regarded as out of Thai jurisdiction and not really of its concern either.  That's the long and short of it.  But this is Thailand and they could and sometimes do what they like.

 

Luckily, no one much gives a toss as one poster said, and it is costly to track anyway.

 

I dare say you are right about the Thai Computer Act.  My impression is that it is so 'broad sword' that anything could stick.  But what makes you think so?

 

I really do think you are speculating on something where there appears to be no known problem.

 

 

Enforcement of this, obviously will not happen...too much trouble for little somchai.

[Scott]

Sometime ago, I asked an immigration officer about computer work and whether it was a violation of the law.   Keep in mind this was several years ago, and online teaching was really not on the radar at the time.

 

What he told me is that immigration was not going to go after people for internet based work, UNLESS  they were working in a central location, such as an office where a number of people are employed.  

 

He also said that it was probably illegal, but it would be hard to prove they were working and that unless they had some very good reason to go after someone, it wasn't the type of thing they went looking for.  

 

So, is it illegal if you don't have a work permit?   Yes.  

[attrayant]

Immigration authorities have issued public statements again and again saying they're not interested in what they referred to as "digital nomads". These are people who make money from their blogs, monetized youtube channels, come here for vacation but still need to manage their business back home, and so on.  Neither their customers nor their employer is Thai, so it would be impossible to get a work permit for it anyway.  The authorities understand that there is no realistic way for these people to become "legal".

 

If anything the authorities should encourage this, since it's a revenue stream coming into the country.  Until the antiquated labor laws catch up to the technology, thousands of online businesses will continue to be managed/run by foreigners in Thailand.

 

Previous discussions: If you are a 'digital nomad' running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa.

 

Quote

Pol. Col. Rutphong Sanwanangkun, Superintendent of Chiang Mai Immigration, addressed those present along with two of his colleagues. The immigration officers answered questions, including some that CityNews asked readers to submit.

 

If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type  visa and then a work permit in order to work legally.  If you are a 'digital nomad' running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa.

 

Immigration clarifies new regulations for foreigners in Chiang Mai:

 

Quote

[Superintendent of Chiang Mai Immigration, Pol Col. Rutphong Sanwanangkum] noted that online work for overseas companies that pay overseas is not prohibited but that the person will need to get a visa to stay longer, currently there is no new visa for these kinds of people.

 

[Jimjim1968]

Interesting comments. 

 

I would be interested if there is a knock-on effect to the number of foreign teachers in Thai schools. Extra duties and difficult working conditions may see some folks adopting this line of work. I have noticed many non native English speaking Western teachers hold many teaching positions where I reside. This was not always the case.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Jimjim1968

[mommysboy]

7 hours ago, Scott said:

Sometime ago, I asked an immigration officer about computer work and whether it was a violation of the law.   Keep in mind this was several years ago, and online teaching was really not on the radar at the time.

 

What he told me is that immigration was not going to go after people for internet based work, UNLESS  they were working in a central location, such as an office where a number of people are employed.  

 

He also said that it was probably illegal, but it would be hard to prove they were working and that unless they had some very good reason to go after someone, it wasn't the type of thing they went looking for.  

 

So, is it illegal if you don't have a work permit?   Yes.  

This probably states it the way it is and I can give another example where a friend disclosed that he was making money online to a police officer.  Initially, the officer thought it an offence, but after discovering it was offshore trade he changed his mind.

 

I think we need to distinguish between theory and reality here.

[Loaded]

3 hours ago, attrayant said:

Immigration authorities have issued public statements again and again saying they're not interested in what they referred to as "digital nomads". These are people who make money from their blogs, monetized youtube channels, come here for vacation but still need to manage their business back home, and so on.  Neither their customers nor their employer is Thai, so it would be impossible to get a work permit for it anyway.  The authorities understand that there is no realistic way for these people to become "legal".

 

If anything the authorities should encourage this, since it's a revenue stream coming into the country.  Until the antiquated labor laws catch up to the technology, thousands of online businesses will continue to be managed/run by foreigners in Thailand.

 

Previous discussions: If you are a 'digital nomad' running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa.

 

 

Immigration clarifies new regulations for foreigners in Chiang Mai:

 

 

The two threads your cite are from 2014 when internet teaching didn't exist.

 

Digital Nomads were/are usually foreigners using a blog to make a little extra cash from clicks from Google Adwords linked to their websites.

 

Teaching is a profession and is controlled by a whole swathe of rules and regulations.

 

There's a difference.

[attrayant]

2 minutes ago, Loaded said:

The two threads your cite are from 2014 when internet teaching didn't exist.

 

California Virtual University opened in the late 90s.  MIT offered an open courseware project online in 2002.  Kahn Academy was founded in 2008.  By 2009, an estimated five and a half million students were taking at least one online course. By 2014, 98% of public colleges and universities were offering online learning.  From this graphic.

 

Distance learning is as old as the hills.  The only thing that has changed is the technology that supports it.  There have been correspondence courses for decades.  If a student in Japan participates in one of my correspondence courses, am I working illegally?  All we're doing is sending mail back and forth.

 

2 minutes ago, Loaded said:

Digital Nomads were/are usually foreigners using a blog to make a little extra cash from clicks from Google Adwords linked to their websites.

 

Teaching is a profession and is controlled by a whole swathe of rules and regulations.

 

There's a difference.

 

Whatever difference you are suggesting, immigration doesn't care about it.  Their job is to control the entry and exit of foreigners and set conditions on their behavior during their stay.  

 

The rules and regulations governing teaching apply to teachers (both foreign or domestic) working in Thailand for Thai people.

 

Until we get something more recent, those statements from 2014 are our best information on what immigration thinks about foreigners in Thailand employed by overseas companies and working for overseas clients.

[Loaded]

"The two threads your cite are from 2014 when internet teaching didn't exist."

 

We are discussing internet teaching in Thailand so I thought the context would be obvious. If it makes it easier for you, I'll rewrite:

 

""The two threads your cite are from 2014 when internet teaching in Thailand didn't exist."

 

Internet teaching existed in the US before 2014 - yippee!!!

The US isn't Thailand so Thai visa and work permit requirements were irrelevant.

 

It didn't exist, or was on a minuscule scale, in Thailand before 2014 - reality!!!!

but teachers need non-imm visas and work permits as they are conducting work in Thailand

 

 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Loaded

[attrayant]

Ridiculous.  Do you really think that either immigration or the labor department would even entertain my applying for a permit to work for a company in another country?

[mommysboy]

23 minutes ago, Loaded said:

The two threads your cite are from 2014 when internet teaching didn't exist.

 

Digital Nomads were/are usually foreigners using a blog to make a little extra cash from clicks from Google Adwords linked to their websites.

 

Teaching is a profession and is controlled by a whole swathe of rules and regulations.

 

There's a difference.

I really think you're getting confused with concepts.  As you say teaching Thai students in Thai establishments is highly regulated, but this simply isn't the case with online teaching to other nationalities where having a TEFL certificate is enough and in any case is no real concern of the Thai authorities unless requested.  You have been provided with numerous explanations and examples but continue to assert a case that simply does not exist at present.

 

For my part, I think the attitude of the Thai authorities is likely guided by the type of activity- we can assume they do not place TEFL teaching in the same category as smuggling dodgy aircraft parts for instance, as one is legal and wholesome, while the other not.

 

 

 

 

 

[Loaded]

Ridiculous.  Do you really think that either immigration or the labor department would even entertain my applying for a permit to work for a company in another country?

That's the whole point. If you were working for a UK company in Thailand, you would still need a work permit. The UK company would need to partner with a Thai company or create a Thai company in order to process the visa and work permit.

That isn't happening with these Chinese companies. They are ignoring Lab or and Immigration law.

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[mommysboy]

2 minutes ago, Loaded said:

That's the whole point. If you were working for a UK company in Thailand, you would still need a work permit. The UK company would need to partner with a Thai company or create a Thai company in order to process the visa and work permit.

That isn't happening with these Chinese companies. They are ignoring Lab or and Immigration law.

Sent from my CPH1701 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

You are getting lost in theory.  The reality is that it is not treated as against the law, and is any case is largely undetectable.  In addition, the activity concerned is not in any way shady.

 

 

[Loaded]

You are getting lost in theory.  The reality is that it is not treated as against the law, and is any case is largely undetectable.  In addition, the activity concerned is not in any way shady.
 
 

Not yet

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[mommysboy]

31 minutes ago, Loaded said:

Not yet

Sent from my CPH1701 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Well that is sheer speculation, and might be applied to just about anything we do in Thailand, as we have already seen with vaping for example.

 

I think the key point with online teaching is whether it is classified as working in or out of the Thai jurisdiction: out it seems, although that might be more a classification of convenience as it would be rather a  difficult problem to tackle.

[Johnniey]

On 3/21/2018 at 4:56 AM, Scott said:

Sometime ago, I asked an immigration officer about computer work and whether it was a violation of the law.   Keep in mind this was several years ago, and online teaching was really not on the radar at the time.

 

What he told me is that immigration was not going to go after people for internet based work, UNLESS  they were working in a central location, such as an office where a number of people are employed.  

 

He also said that it was probably illegal, but it would be hard to prove they were working and that unless they had some very good reason to go after someone, it wasn't the type of thing they went looking for.  

 

So, is it illegal if you don't have a work permit?   Yes.  

It really has nothing to do with immigration. Try asking the Ministry of Labour.

[Scott]

5 minutes ago, Johnniey said:

It really has nothing to do with immigration. Try asking the Ministry of Labour.

I am not going to get into a pedantic argument over it, but immigration certainly DOES have something to do with it.   Go ahead and get caught working on a retirement -- and see who sends you on your way out of the country or revokes your visa.    It won't be the Labor Ministry.  

 

Immigration makes periodic visits to our school.   Not very often, but they have.    There has never been anyone from the Ministry of Labor ever show up.  

 

 

 

[Johnniey]

How many teachers do a bit of teaching on the side, at students' houses, or their own?

 

How many have ever been arrested for this? In 25 years, I've never heard of one.

 

I even taught the Klong Tan police before the Asian games here! I've taught the kids of the boss of the Ministry of Labour. I've been asked a few times to teach immigration officers.

 

In Thailand, there are ways around everything. It is a developing country, where corruption is rife.

 

I asked the deputy commander of police about online gambling. He said it was OK as the bets were not actually made in Thailand. 

[Scott]

I think we can stop with the trolling and off-topic deflections.   The thread is about online teaching. 

 

Most people living in Thailand know the legal lay of the land.  

[Loaded]

1 hour ago, Johnniey said:

How many teachers do a bit of teaching on the side, at students' houses, or their own?

 

How many have ever been arrested for this? In 25 years, I've never heard of one.

 

I even taught the Klong Tan police before the Asian games here! I've taught the kids of the boss of the Ministry of Labour. I've been asked a few times to teach immigration officers.

 

In Thailand, there are ways around everything. It is a developing country, where corruption is rife.

 

I asked the deputy commander of police about online gambling. He said it was OK as the bets were not actually made in Thailand. 

You taught the boss of the Ministry of Labor's kids and you are on personal terms with the Deputy Commander of Police - wow!!!!

 

Are you also in the SAS?

 

Getting back to your comment about online gambling:

 

"...The five have been charged with conducting illegal online gambling and working in the country without a permit."

 

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30328650

[mommysboy]

49 minutes ago, Loaded said:

You taught the boss of the Ministry of Labor's kids and you are on personal terms with the Deputy Commander of Police - wow!!!!

 

Are you also in the SAS?

 

Getting back to your comment about online gambling:

 

"...The five have been charged with conducting illegal online gambling and working in the country without a permit."

 

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30328650

 

Online teaching need not be confused with running an illegal syndicate which conducts an activity known to be against the law.

 

Online teaching is either not illegal for a farang not having a work permit or is treated as such, and this we can clearly see happening.

 

It is predominantly an activity where most defining factors are not part of Thai jurisdiction, eg, the activity technically takes place at the registered address of the company.  The situation is different if one is servicing Thai students and working for a Thai company.

[Johnniey]

1 hour ago, Loaded said:

You taught the boss of the Ministry of Labor's kids and you are on personal terms with the Deputy Commander of Police - wow!!!!

 

Are you also in the SAS?

 

Getting back to your comment about online gambling:

 

"...The five have been charged with conducting illegal online gambling and working in the country without a permit."

 

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30328650

I mean the boss in the provincial ministry of labour, not the Minister of Labour :)

 

Yes, I'm friendly with the head policeman of 7 provinces in northern Isarn. I have taught his staff in the CSD, and his daughter. I think his title is actually assistant commissioner in English.

 

It's very important to make friends in high places if you live in Thailand for a long time. Join the local clubs, tennis, rotary etc.

 

Sorry about your low self-esteem. I know how it feels to not even get on the Thai hierarchical ladder, as an English teacher, believe me - I was there for many years.

Newbies like you often think that we are stuck at some lowly level. It is just not true, we can rise! 

 

The link you showed, the betting was made in Thailand.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Johnniey