Craigslist, Thailand, and the new U.S. law

[Jingthing]

Many people have heard about the new U.S. anti sex trafficking / anti prostitution law impacting websites. It prompted craigslist to disable their very popular PERSONAL AD listings including for platonic connections, like seeking a ping pong partner. That's sad I think, throwing the baby out with bath water.

 

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/1865

 

Well I was curious if this is international and whether the U.S. law had international implications. Interestingly, the Thailand version of craiglist which though not all that popular still has the personals section operating.

 

Hmm

 

Message from a U.S. city --

Quote

 

US Congress just passed HR 1865, "FOSTA", seeking to subject websites to criminal and civil liability when third parties (users) misuse online personals unlawfully.

Any tool or service can be misused. We can't take such risk without jeopardizing all our other services, so we are regretfully taking craigslist personals offline. Hopefully we can bring them back some day.
...

 

Thailand -- as before, everything functioning. 

I'm rather surprised by that.

As many know U.S. law is often applied internationally. 

As craiglist (and so many other websites) is a U.S. based website, wouldn't a violation of the law that happened via Thailand website potentially create a serious legal problem for craigslist (and other sites)?

I really don't get it. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Jingthing

[Lamkyong]

ping pong partner in Thailand ??always thought that was a bit of one sided (sport/show)

[wwest5829]

Not focused on this subject only but I reject the idea that the USA can claim extraterritorial jurisdiction over its citizens' worldwide. I look forward to Russia an/or China claiming the same rights over their citizens on US soil. Somehow I think the US government would find they would not agree...

[keeniau96]

Some western nations apply extraterritorial laws to their citizens eg. underage sex. The USA does and I have seen here in TH the same for pedophiles from Germany, France and others.

[Howard]

Australia has laws that apply to their citizens even if they commit the act overseas. In particular, it applies to pedophiles.

 

However if a foreign national commits the same offence outside of Australia and then travels to Australia that law does not apply to them.

 

Howard

Edited March 26, 2018 by Howard
othe thought

[Tony125]

1 hour ago, wwest5829 said:

Not focused on this subject only but I reject the idea that the USA can claim extraterritorial jurisdiction over its citizens' worldwide. I look forward to Russia an/or China claiming the same rights over their citizens on US soil. Somehow I think the US government would find they would not agree...

You're somewhat naive. The US will prosecute it's citizens for underage sex even if it's legal in the country they are in . They also require banks in any country to report the finances of US citizens  to the US Internal Revenue Services or face severe penalties. There are other laws as well such as joining a foreign Military--can be considered treason.

[Jingthing]

In this case the law is about the U. S. government having the power to severely punish any website for actions taken by users on websites. So Craigslist's response is rational but I don't understand why they haven't done the same thing on their Thai site. I haven't checked all their international sites of course. Perhaps they will be cutting the services internationally too and just haven't gotten around to it yet.

 

Craiglist is one example that has made the news. Obviously there are many other websites that could be in peril because of this new law.

 

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

ping pong partner in Thailand ??always thought that was a bit of one sided (sport/show)

Perhaps the wrong example for Thailand. How about seeking a new friend to discuss black holes over coffee? Better?

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Suradit69]

49 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Perhaps the wrong example for Thailand. How about seeking a new friend to discuss black holes over coffee? Better?

Stephen Hawking would be spinning in his grave. RIP

 

 

[Grumpy Duck]

59 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

In this case the law is about the U. S. government having the power to severely punish any website for actions taken by users on websites. So Craigslist's response is rational but I don't understand why they haven't done the same thing on their Thai site. I haven't checked all their international sites of course. Perhaps they will be cutting the services internationally too and just haven't gotten around to it yet.

 

Craiglist is one example that has made the news. Obviously there are many other websites that could be in peril because of this new law.

 

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

 

Hmm like wechat, whatsap and line for a few. 

I remember visiting vegas a year ago. Checking the “people nearby” section was all outcall girls. I had to laugh, they all had the same text and prices, just different photos. 55555

[Grumpy Duck]

I use Craigs List Thai to search for photo gear and vehicles. I have to laugh when I see vehicles in the USA posted. I hate and refuse to use ebay. They put most other on line classifieds out of business. When I look to buy something I want to buy it now, & to see a firm price not a current bid. 

[Jingthing]

37 minutes ago, Grumpy Duck said:

Hmm like wechat, whatsap and line for a few. 

I remember visiting vegas a year ago. Checking the “people nearby” section was all outcall girls. I had to laugh, they all had the same text and prices, just different photos. 55555

Yes, exactly. There are scads of websites where such connections can potentially be made. This U.S. law makes the websites extremely culpable for the actions of private users that they have no control over. 

 

It's a very "interesting" law that received bipartisan support. Yes it attacks internet free expression in a very radical way. The rationale of the bill is that activities that are illegal in real life are now being made illegal in internet world.

 

Now that the law is passed even though it's clear there are going to be some very negative perhaps unintended consequences, I don't see how they can backtrack on it. Any politician wanting to temper the law will get attacked for being pro-human trafficking (so they won't do it). 

 

I realize it's a U.S. law but many websites are U.S. based (the premise of the Craiglist in Thailand query) and also I think people should be aware that other countries may COPY these kinds of laws. 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Jingthing

[pipeflaw]

4 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

Not focused on this subject only but I reject the idea that the USA can claim extraterritorial jurisdiction over its citizens' worldwide. I look forward to Russia an/or China claiming the same rights over their citizens on US soil. Somehow I think the US government would find they would not agree...

As long as the proper "connection" or nexus to the USA is established acts wholly committed outside the USA, US citizens can be prosecuted in the USA.  The US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA) is a perfect example.  The FCPA prohibits a company from corruptly offering or paying money or offering or giving anything of value, directly or indirectly through agents or intermediaries, to a foreign official to obtain or retain business.  To come within the jurisdiction of the FCPA, all that is required for liability is that some conduct occur in the US that facilitates

or carries forward the prohibited activity, such as use of the US mail or wiring money into or out of the US.  Even non-US citizens can be prosecuted in the USA.

[Mac98]

4 hours ago, Tony125 said:

You're somewhat naive. The US will prosecute it's citizens for underage sex even if it's legal in the country they are in . They also require banks in any country to report the finances of US citizens  to the US Internal Revenue Services or face severe penalties. There are other laws as well such as joining a foreign Military--can be considered treason.

Will U.S. prosecute me for smoking in a bar?

[Jingthing]

21 minutes ago, Mac98 said:

Will U.S. prosecute me for smoking in a bar?

No of course not.

But if you're a U.S. citizen they can go after people for sex crimes even if they're not sex crimes in the foreign country where they occurred. For example, age of consent in a country might be 16 but the federal age of consent in the U.S. is 18 so sex with an under 18 abroad would be a sex crime of interest to the feds. Ironically, many U.S. states have consent laws under 18 but abroad only federal law applies. 

 

Anyway, this topic is really about the law impacting WEBSITES.

Edited March 26, 2018 by Jingthing

[KhunBENQ]

I was somewhat puzzled when I learned that on the Bangkok craigslist women can openly advertise prostitution (some with pornographic pictures) and some "tour operators" in Pattaya can show pornographic pictures.

How can this be overlooked by the Thai censors?

Edited March 26, 2018 by KhunBENQ

[mpyre]

5 hours ago, Tony125 said:

You're somewhat naive. The US will prosecute it's citizens for underage sex even if it's legal in the country they are in . They also require banks in any country to report the finances of US citizens  to the US Internal Revenue Services or face severe penalties. There are other laws as well such as joining a foreign Military--can be considered treason.

Land of the free...

[newnative]

      If I am remembering correctly, not too long ago a legal ruling in, I believe California, ruled in favor of Airbnb and held it not liable for the illegal property rental postings on its website.  I think the reasoning seemed to be that the person posting was responsible for breaking the law, not Airbnb. 

     I'm failing to see the reasoning that THIS website is NOT responsible for any illegal activity that sometimes occurs on its website, such as posters doing illegal condo rentals;  and THAT website IS responsible for illegal activity that sometimes occurs on its website, such as posters misusing personals.  I wouldn't be surprised if this law is at some point overturned by the courts.

[PeterA]

Since we are also talking about underage contact, and USA laws, Kentucky has a legal to marry law if the girl is 14 must have her parents signature. I may be wrong, but I believe the age was 12 just a few years ago. And the US is pushing limits on other countries? Laugh a minute.

 

[sanemax]

9 hours ago, Tony125 said:

The US will prosecute it's citizens for underage sex even if it's legal in the country they are in

Thats a bit harsh, so American Pedophiles cannot go to Countries where the age on consent is 12 and have sex with kids, without getting arrested back in the USA?

  Thats not fair for pedos, is it ?

[Jingthing]

Since we are also talking about underage contact, and USA laws, Kentucky has a legal to marry law if the girl is 14 must have her parents signature. I may be wrong, but I believe the age was 12 just a few years ago. And the US is pushing limits on other countries? Laugh a minute.
 

Not exactly. They're enforcing U. S. federal law on U. S. citizens only all over the world.

Again the topic here is this very new and different thing.

Nothing to do with enforcement against individuals which is still possible but a separate long standing thing.

About enforcement against websites when the sites are used for prostitution or sex trafficking by users of the website having no other connection to the website.

It's really another level thing.

For example if someone placed a non commercial personal ad on Craigslist and it later became involved with prostitution or sex trafficking Craigslist could be prosecuted.

Please focus on that here.

It seems to me Craigslist and other sites could still be liable if the same thing happened on one of their international pages such as Thailand as its a US based website.

Not sure though.

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[The Theory]

There is no prostitution or sex trafficking in Thailand❗️?

but of course “nana” is just a mirage. ?

Edited March 26, 2018 by The Theory

[Jingthing]

I just checked and Craigslist has also not shut down their personals in Canada or the UK. So perhaps they think their exposure is only on the USA sections. 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Jingthing

[thaibeachlovers]

23 hours ago, Jingthing said:

This U.S. law makes the websites extremely culpable for the actions of private users that they have no control over. 

 

Unless the US bans prostitution ( and that would include porn stars doing it for money ) in the US, I can't see how they can prosecute people using any US based website for connecting to prostitutes.

[Jingthing]

Again, really how many times do I need to say this before people get it?, this thread is about the NEW thing -- the legal exposure of WEBSITES that provide a way for the illegal activities to take place. Not about the exposure of the actual people doing the illegal activities.

 

 

Quote

 

Craigslist drops personal ads due to sex trafficking bill

...

The Allow States and Victims to Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act, or FOSTA, makes websites criminally liable for content that its users post, including prostitution ads and sex-trafficking content.

 

 

 

https://nypost.com/2018/03/23/craigslist-drops-personal-ads-due-to-sex-trafficking-bill/

 

[Crossy]

Craigslist Thailand "bangkok.craigslist.co.th" resolves to 208.82.238.226 (cities.g.craigslist.org) which http://www.ipaddresslocation.org places in San Francisco.

 

So one would assume US laws apply since it is hosted in the Good Ole US of A.

[Jingthing]

Just now, Crossy said:

Craigslist Thailand "bangkok.craigslist.co.th" resolves to 208.82.238.226 (cities.g.craigslist.org) which http://www.ipaddresslocation.org places in San Francisco.

 

So one would assume US laws apply since it is hosted in the Good Ole US of A.

Thanks for the technical stuff but I had already assumed that craiglist being a U.S. based business at least MIGHT have exposure internationally under this new (and in my view over the top) law. So I remain surprised the Craigslist thinks it's OK to only block the ads on the U.S. location pages. 

[Crossy]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I had already assumed that craiglist being a U.S. based business

I was wondering if they actually operated as a Thailand based company which would be outside US jurisdiction.

 

International businesses which operate here must have branches which are Thai companies. Which is why when PCI (Pacific Consultants International) as a Japanese company were closed by the Japanese government for corrupt practices the Thai branch just kept on operating.

 

[Jingthing]

Anyway, Craiglist personal ads WERE hugely popular in the U.S. Also free.

 

Might this be a potential business opportunity for a non-American citizen hosting the sites someplace like Montenegro?

 

Just copy the same format, get the word out (wouldn't be hard in this case, there's a massive amount of press about the end of Craigslist personals) and find a way to monetize (ads)?

 

 

[Jingthing]

Update --

the action Craigslist took (because of fear of prosecution) to kill the personal ad section in the USA has now been nixed in Thailand as well.

So it seems they just didn't do it right away, perhaps their lawyers weren't sure before whether international exposure was a risk.

Checked Canada too, also gone, so I'm going to assume they have taken this option worldwide.