Whistleblower questions Brexit result, says campaigners broke election law

[Rimmer]

A flame has been removed:

 

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[Chomper Higgot]

There are those who argue messages, fake news and propaganda distributed via social media have no impact on people's opinions and behaviours. I'm sure they have reasons for believing this.

 

But then there are psychologists at the world's leading universities are who research this issue and have written rafts of scientific papers on the matter:

 

Just a few, there are thousands more.

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0020025517305030

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S244496951730029X

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0148296316304325

[JAG]

On 27/03/2018 at 8:07 PM, sawadee1947 said:

I don't want to repeat all what was written here. Read it carefully and then you will see that the Brexit was based on illegal influence caused by facebook. However I know that there are a lot of ignorants outside. So I can't expect that everybody would agree just they want to believe in voters fair result. 

Umh,  I thought that the majority vote for leaving the EU was down to a small number of poorly educated, elderly, bigoted, ultra nationalistic, jingoistic people who really shouldn't be trusted with the vote etc etc...

 

Hardly typical Facebook users I would have thought?

Edited March 29, 2018 by JAG

[JAG]

Incidentally, I wonder how, and how transparently, this "whistleblowing" campaign is being funded?

 

A legal opinion from a major London law firm such as "Bindmans" does not come cheap, especially when it includes 50 odd pages of "selected" evidence! I also can't help cynically wondering how much evidence was not selected?

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Christopher Wylie has presented testimony and evidence (documentation) that demonstrate the statements made by Cambridge Analytica to the Parliamentary Commission and the the Electoral Commission are incomplete and misleading (evidence of crimes).

He has also presented evidence that organisations used by the Leave Campaign were in truth subsidiaries of CA (if proven this demonstrates electoral funding fraud).

 

As for posting ad-nauseum, shall we count each other's posts in this discussion?

 

His evidence of collusion consists of his opining that he can't imagine that certain people 'couldn't not have known about it'. The same as the claims being made by Shahmir Sammi.

 

The whole story's a stitch-up. Yet another sinister attempt by Project Fear to overturn a democratic result which messes with their plans. And people falling for it are being taken for fools.

[sawadee1947]

27 minutes ago, JAG said:

Umh,  I thought that the majority vote for leaving the EU was down to a small number of poorly educated, elderly, bigoted, ultra nationalistic, jingoistic people who really shouldn't be trusted with the vote etc etc...

 

Hardly typical Facebook users I would have thought?

Probably we would never get to know how massive Facebook was involved and of course nobody can give exact figures about the percentage of "wrong voting". And.....how much influence Russia got in this game. We are living in a world of "fake news" published even by our govts. To find the truth we have to inform ourselves not only by "Sun" but UK, USA, Continental News (as SPIEGEL) or Russia Today. But in this forum sometimes it seems as if Sun and Guardian is the "non plus ultra". The Observer e.g. is never mentioned. I would guess that the majority of TV members are following the populists, Neo Nazis are "ante portas". However we have to use our brain (if any) to fight freedom and our way of democracy. It was a long way since and we shall give 3rd world countries the chance to achieve it and not ongoing with daily "Thai bashing". That's to easy and too mean.

[Chomper Higgot]

36 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

The whole story's a stitch-up. Yet another sinister attempt by Project Fear to overturn a democratic result which messes with their plans. And people falling for it are being taken for fools.

You of course can point to evidence of this?!

[rockingrobin]

39 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

Probably we would never get to know how massive Facebook was involved and of course nobody can give exact figures about the percentage of "wrong voting". And.....how much influence Russia got in this game. We are living in a world of "fake news" published even by our govts. To find the truth we have to inform ourselves not only by "Sun" but UK, USA, Continental News (as SPIEGEL) or Russia Today. But in this forum sometimes it seems as if Sun and Guardian is the "non plus ultra". The Observer e.g. is never mentioned. I would guess that the majority of TV members are following the populists, Neo Nazis are "ante portas". However we have to use our brain (if any) to fight freedom and our way of democracy. It was a long way since and we shall give 3rd world countries the chance to achieve it and not ongoing with daily "Thai bashing". That's to easy and too mean.

The current manager director of SCL , elections , who was in the C4 documentary ( I am a master of disguise) was former Bell Potinger  , stating on his profile

 

" At the root of every challenge: understanding and influencing how target populations think, feel and behave; and then using behavioural analysis and a range of channels/networks to shape narratives in order to meet security, political and development objectives "

[Khun Han]

31 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You of course can point to evidence of this?!

 

Sorry, I forgot to add IMO.

 

By the way, the mods have repeatedly told us that we quote the whole quote, and repeat the part to which we are replying outside the quote box.

[stevenl]

40 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

The current manager director of SCL , elections , who was in the C4 documentary ( I am a master of disguise) was former Bell Potinger  , stating on his profile

 

" At the root of every challenge: understanding and influencing how target populations think, feel and behave; and then using behavioural analysis and a range of channels/networks to shape narratives in order to meet security, political and development objectives "

Yes, and still TVF contributors think the (social) media are not influencing their thinking.

[sawadee1947]

1 hour ago, rockingrobin said:

The current manager director of SCL , elections , who was in the C4 documentary ( I am a master of disguise) was former Bell Potinger  , stating on his profile

 

" At the root of every challenge: understanding and influencing how target populations think, feel and behave; and then using behavioural analysis and a range of channels/networks to shape narratives in order to meet security, political and development objectives "

That's what I want to express 

[Grouse]

For goodness sake, let's get a grip here

 

One can use machine learning (artificial neural networks) to determine hidden and unexplained patterns (correlations).

 

A large database, such as the one provided by Facebook can be used as the data source for such analysis.

 

The results may be used in many different ways NOT necessarily via social media.

 

Lets say to use a totally made up example, it transpires that a certain sub group was marginally anti-immigrant but also liked chocolate. Armed with that knowledge it would be possible to produce piece saying that Brexit would stop immigrants driving up chocolate prices. Totally fatuous but just to illustrate the issue. Facebook data is not used in the literal sense but rather as "training" data to extract hidden correlations.

 

These systems already decide if you get a credit card or a mortgage and help decide bond and futures transactions.

 

This is all too much background but enough uninformed codswallop!

Edited March 29, 2018 by Grouse

[Khun Han]

5 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

There are those who argue messages, fake news and propaganda distributed via social media have no impact on people's opinions and behaviours. I'm sure they have reasons for believing this.

 

But then there are psychologists at the world's leading universities are who research this issue and have written rafts of scientific papers on the matter:

 

Just a few, there are thousands more.

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0020025517305030

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S244496951730029X

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0148296316304325

 

The first link is about ISIS use of social media, which is a dynamic all of it's own. The second link theorises about the future possibilities of using social media for political purposes (which is, I think, a very real possibility in the future, as social media takes over peoples' lives). The third link deals with commercial product marketing on social media, which is a perfectly valid current issue because attractive products have made it through to peoples' social media consciousness due such products being viscerally appealing. Politics is going to take a while longer to make major inroads, with much more advanced strategies than are currently used. 

[Khun Han]

5 hours ago, JAG said:

Incidentally, I wonder how, and how transparently, this "whistleblowing" campaign is being funded?

 

A legal opinion from a major London law firm such as "Bindmans" does not come cheap, especially when it includes 50 odd pages of "selected" evidence! I also can't help cynically wondering how much evidence was not selected?

 

The paper trail will probably lead back to the Soros-funded Best For Britain, or some such.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

For goodness sake, let's get a grip here

 

One can use machine learning (artificial neural networks) to determine hidden and unexplained patterns (correlations).

 

A large database, such as the one provided by Facebook can be used as the data source for such analysis.

 

The results may be used in many different ways NOT necessarily via social media.

 

Lets say to use a totally made up example, it transpires that a certain sub group was marginally anti-immigrant but also liked chocolate. Armed with that knowledge it would be possible to produce piece saying that Brexit would stop immigrants driving up chocolate prices. Totally fatuous but just to illustrate the issue. Facebook data is not used in the literal sense but rather as "training" data to extract hidden correlations.

 

These systems already decide if you get a credit card or a mortgage and help decide bond and futures transactions.

 

This is all too much background but enough uninformed codswallop!

 

Them Oompa Loompas....

[7by7]

On ‎29‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 9:36 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

Sorry I need to correct you (7by7).

 

The claim that the voters of the UK have made a decision is only true if the process by which that decision was made was not fraudulent. 

 

Let's see what the investigation reveals.

That remark indicates that my saying

On ‎29‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 9:33 AM, 7by7 said:

It appears that your hopes are that if it can be proven that there was massive fraud in all the leave campaigning new referendum will be called with a different result.

is correct.

 

You seem to have a complete misunderstanding of what election fraud actually is under UK law.

 

What we are talking about here is possible financial irregularities in the funding of certain campaigners. this could result in them being prosecuted and if found guilty fined or even imprisonment.

 

For the referendum result to be declared null and void there would need to have been fraud involving offences such as personation, bribery, multiple registration and, yes, financial irregularities in campaigning on a massive scale.

 

You'll probably find the Electoral Commission's papers Electoral fraud in the UK Evidence and issues paper and Challenging elections in the UK enlightening. They refer to elections rather than referenda; but the principle is the same. The second one will tell you how to go about challenging the result should you be so inclined; though, to be frank, I'm sure certain Remainers (Blair at al?) who are far more expert in this matter than you or I have already considered this route and, as no such calls have been made, dismissed it.

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but the referendum results stands and the UK will be leaving the EU at 11pm UK time on the 29th March 2019; unless the UK asks for an extension and all 28 EU members agree.

[Walter Travolta]

On 3/28/2018 at 3:01 PM, Grouse said:

Sadly, you really don't understand what is going on. It is very subtle, almost subliminal. You may not believe it but you ARE being manipulated

Grouse, you and Chomper and stevenl are showing how ignorant and pompous you are. You dont know me 1 bit, yet you tell me I am being influenced or manipulated? You really are something else! Do you all belong to the same cult or did you all join different ones? 

 

Look at it from this angle and tell me who is stupid . . .  Im not being influenced or manipulated in any way whatsoever. But lets just say I am. That means I am being unwillingly influenced as you 3 keep waffling on about, so that at worst makes me naive? 

 

If you guys are all being influenced and/or manipulated, AND YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE . . .  who are really the dumbos out of the 4 of us? Me for being unknowingly influenced? Or you 3 for continuing to be influenced or manipulated when you actually know that is what is going on? 

 

If you wish to make statements without any substance like most leftys do then enjoy your silliness. If you wish to take the debate to an adult level, then please advise me where I am being influenced or manipulated and I will put you right. Maybe then you will learn how to debate something, rather than just throw random statements around and believing them.

 

Saying the sky is blue doesnt make it so . . . 

 

[Walter Travolta]

On 3/28/2018 at 3:05 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

It’s worse thsn that.

 

The argument ‘I am immune to manipulation’ is rediculous without anyone pointing out that for the manipulation to be effective it need only work with a relatively small number of people.

 

When the ballot result comes out at 52/48 a small percentage becomes critical.

Immune to manipulation? Obviously Im not when you are manipulating the words used previously. I said Im not influenced by marketing. Stick to the facts or the topic goes way further off course than you have already tried taking it

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Walter Travolta said:

Look at it from this angle and tell me who is stupid . . .  Im not being influenced or manipulated in any way whatsoever. But lets just say I am. That means I am being unwillingly influenced as you 3 keep waffling on about, so that at worst makes me naive? 

 

If you guys are all being influenced and/or manipulated, AND YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE . . .  who are really the dumbos out of the 4 of us? Me for being unknowingly influenced? Or you 3 for continuing to be influenced or manipulated when you actually know that is what is going on? 

You say you are not influenced and yet you keep on replying, sometime YELLING. Yes, you are being influenced, even in this very thread. 

 

Advertising agencies spend billions of money, hire creative people, learn about psychology and technology. All for nothing? 

 

[Walter Travolta]

3 minutes ago, oilinki said:

You say you are not influenced and yet you keep on replying, sometime YELLING. Yes, you are being influenced, even in this very thread. 

 

Advertising agencies spend billions of money, hire creative people, learn about psychology and technology. All for nothing? 

 

I studied Psychology at University. Carry on playing God because you obviously know more about me than I do. Oh and carry on being conned/influenced/mugged/scammed or whatever way you like it called 

 

Oh and typing something in CAPITALS isnt always yelling, it is used for emphasizing a point.

[Grouse]

18 minutes ago, Walter Travolta said:

Grouse, you and Chomper and stevenl are showing how ignorant and pompous you are. You dont know me 1 bit, yet you tell me I am being influenced or manipulated? You really are something else! Do you all belong to the same cult or did you all join different ones? 

 

Look at it from this angle and tell me who is stupid . . .  Im not being influenced or manipulated in any way whatsoever. But lets just say I am. That means I am being unwillingly influenced as you 3 keep waffling on about, so that at worst makes me naive? 

 

If you guys are all being influenced and/or manipulated, AND YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE . . .  who are really the dumbos out of the 4 of us? Me for being unknowingly influenced? Or you 3 for continuing to be influenced or manipulated when you actually know that is what is going on? 

 

If you wish to make statements without any substance like most leftys do then enjoy your silliness. If you wish to take the debate to an adult level, then please advise me where I am being influenced or manipulated and I will put you right. Maybe then you will learn how to debate something, rather than just throw random statements around and believing them.

 

Saying the sky is blue doesnt make it so . . . 

 

Sadly, you don't get it. But, don't worry, you are far from being alone. Don't ask me to explain, I  am far too pompous to explain it to you. Carry on....

 

BTW, I am no "lefty". I can not abide Corbyn or the ghastly Abbott. I do like Vince Cable so you may accuse me of being a centrist ?

[Walter Travolta]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Sadly, you don't get it. But, don't worry, you are far from being alone. Don't ask me to explain, I  am far too pompous to explain it to you. Carry on....

 

BTW, I am no "lefty". I can not abide Corbyn or the ghastly Abbott. I do like Vince Cable so you may accuse me of being a centrist ?

Grouse, there is nothing to get! There is lots and lots of marketing strategies out there. I see them, I dont deny they exist. All I am saying is, I dont fall for it. If I want to buy something, I do my research on it. I dont just run out and buy something because the product has been wrapped up in a colourful tv ad or magazine ad. 

I wish you would explain because Im at a loss to understand what the hell you are on about and I would like to know, at least to put my mind at rest because all I have had from all of you is cryptic riddles, nothing solid

 

By the way, I tip my hat to you on your perceptions of JC n DA

[Grouse]

12 minutes ago, Walter Travolta said:

I studied Psychology at University. Carry on playing God because you obviously know more about me than I do. Oh and carry on being conned/influenced/mugged/scammed or whatever way you like it called 

 

Oh and typing something in CAPITALS isnt always yelling, it is used for emphasizing a point.

Well if you're a psychologist, maybe you can explain how artificial neural networks may be used to identify patterns and correlations which can subsequently be utilised manipulate opinions

[Chomper Higgot]

39 minutes ago, Walter Travolta said:

Grouse, you and Chomper and stevenl are showing how ignorant and pompous you are. You dont know me 1 bit, yet you tell me I am being influenced or manipulated? You really are something else! Do you all belong to the same cult or did you all join different ones? 

 

Look at it from this angle and tell me who is stupid . . .  Im not being influenced or manipulated in any way whatsoever. But lets just say I am. That means I am being unwillingly influenced as you 3 keep waffling on about, so that at worst makes me naive? 

 

If you guys are all being influenced and/or manipulated, AND YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE . . .  who are really the dumbos out of the 4 of us? Me for being unknowingly influenced? Or you 3 for continuing to be influenced or manipulated when you actually know that is what is going on? 

 

If you wish to make statements without any substance like most leftys do then enjoy your silliness. If you wish to take the debate to an adult level, then please advise me where I am being influenced or manipulated and I will put you right. Maybe then you will learn how to debate something, rather than just throw random statements around and believing them.

 

Saying the sky is blue doesnt make it so . . . 

 

Dear Walter, I understand you want to think of yourself as an individual, secure in the belief that your opinions and feelings are not swayed or moved by messages directed at youm  to change the decisions and choices you make.

 

I get it, you think you know your own mind.

 

Unfortunately a large number of psychologists working in advertising, and other forms of opinion/choice manipulation know differently.

 

It seems they are so sure in their ability to manipulate you, me, and everyone else, that they are able to convince that most cynical, hard headed and sceptical group of people - corporate accountants, who happily sign off on huge advertising budgets.

 

They do so because they see the positive correlation between putting ideas in people’s heads and profits/ return on their investment.

 

And thank you for referring to me as ‘a lefty’, it’s something I’m very proud of.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[stevenl]

3 hours ago, Walter Travolta said:

Grouse, you and Chomper and stevenl are showing how ignorant and pompous you are. You dont know me 1 bit, yet you tell me I am being influenced or manipulated? You really are something else! Do you all belong to the same cult or did you all join different ones? 

 

Look at it from this angle and tell me who is stupid . . .  Im not being influenced or manipulated in any way whatsoever. But lets just say I am. That means I am being unwillingly influenced as you 3 keep waffling on about, so that at worst makes me naive? 

 

If you guys are all being influenced and/or manipulated, AND YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE . . .  who are really the dumbos out of the 4 of us? Me for being unknowingly influenced? Or you 3 for continuing to be influenced or manipulated when you actually know that is what is going on? 

 

If you wish to make statements without any substance like most leftys do then enjoy your silliness. If you wish to take the debate to an adult level, then please advise me where I am being influenced or manipulated and I will put you right. Maybe then you will learn how to debate something, rather than just throw random statements around and believing them.

 

Saying the sky is blue doesnt make it so . . . 

 

Based on the news stories you click on you get ads. Ads tailor made for you. But also based on those news stories and things like likes you get suggestions for other news stories.

You, and everyone else, is being manipulated. Only way to avoid this is avoiding the web.

 

Did you graduate in psychology btw?

Edited March 31, 2018 by stevenl

[Guest]

It's wonderful that people are no falling to influence by others.. 

 

"This is extremely dangerous to our democracy!", perhaps a bit repetition would work? Let's try, if it does!