High speed rail: Pattaya to Bangkok in well under an hour - around 300 baht!

[jerry921]

2 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

 

The road system in Thailand is done on the cheap and riddles with "shortages" presumably caused by graft and corruption.

If the rail system comes into being with Chinese or German design there could be a viable and safe altenative for te millions of people who will be visiting the region in te next 5 to 10 years or so.

Why don't you expect the construction of the high speed rail to be equally riddled with graft effects that ultimately reduce safety or safe speeds for the train?

[Airbagwill]

13 minutes ago, jerry921 said:

Why don't you expect the construction of the high speed rail to be equally riddled with graft effects that ultimately reduce safety or safe speeds for the train?

Actually I don't think that is particularly pertinent to the discussion or the points I was making - looks like you'r e fishing a bit there.

 

However........It is indeed possible but as it is getting foreign backing this may be less likely. also the corruption in construction of a railway is less easily done that in roadways...in road building the materials not seen are left out and it doesn't show up for a few moths or years, the construction of the railway should be  far more rigorously undertaken - take for instance the building of the Suvarnabhumi spur - Siemens refused to sign off on it until they were satisfied with the standards.

 

It is possible that the hHSTs will face ongoing maintenance and slowdowns due to poor construction but most of the advantages and disadvantages re freight will remain the same.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Airbagwill

[Srikcir]

14 minutes ago, jerry921 said:

Why don't you expect the construction of the high speed rail to be equally riddled with graft effects that ultimately reduce safety or safe speeds for the train?

Perhaps (to jump into the  middle of your conversation with Airbagwil) because road projects are financed internally by the Thai government with costs for overrun (aka corruption?) unaccountable and nontransparent; versus HST financed by typically China and Japan for which cost overruns are transparent and accountable in terms of meeting Thailand government's foreign debt obligations.

With foreign-financed rail systems I expect Thai opportunities for corruption to be ancillary to the HST project indirectly such as with covert ROW purchases and side rail commercialization.

[JSixpack]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

From a previous thread on TVF it's always booked out, and used by locals.

 

It was booked out for a couple of weekends after the opening. No mention thereafter so it's not "always" booked out for any advance date.

 

Quote

It may have been intended as a tourist train, but the times are inconvenient for tourists.

 

Merely the usual bigoted misunderstanding of what a tourist is. Not only was it intended as a tourist train, that's what it actually is. Some expats, though, who also aren't tourists have expressed interest in trying out the train, at some point. Most of those sneering at the train won't try it or even go to the station at arrival/departure times to get some facts. No surprise there, eh.

 

[jerry921]

30 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

take for instance the building of the Suvarnabhumi spur - Siemens refused to sign off on it until they were satisfied with the standards.

 

22 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Perhaps ... because HST financed by typically China and Japan for which cost overruns are transparent and accountable ...

With foreign-financed rail systems I expect Thai opportunities for corruption to be ancillary to the HST project indirectly such as with covert ROW purchases and side rail commercialization.

Well, ok. Certainly possible you two are both correct. I'm no expert, just a pessimist.

 

Is it off-topic to compare and contrast the levels of corruption and cost overrun in the California high speed rail project? They keep tacking on billions to that one, but I'm not following close enough to know if the overruns are being transparently accounted for. But it seems a bit like Alice in Wonderland, the more money they spend, the bigger the amount remaining that needs to be spent.

[JSixpack]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

As for the tunnel, it may be completed now, but it doesn't allow m'bikes like they do in Chiang Mai, and the construction was a disaster area for, apparently, years.

 

It doesn't matter that it doesn't allow motorbikes like they do in Chiang Mai and it's good thing for safety reasons. The old traffic jam there is gone.

 

The construction area was only a disaster area (love the hyperbole) in the minds of our Tunnelers. There was an inevitable traffic tie up for a couple of years of course as one would reasonably expect given the constraints of that location. I also remember well the traffic jams for years during the Laemchabang flyover construction.

 

[JSixpack]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I used it then, and the reason it wasn't popular was because the price was too high. Poor people take the bus.

 

Simplistic price comparisons tend to be highly misleading, just with McDonalds or CentralFestival Pattaya Beach, the economics of which you've analyzed previously. It's of course much more complex than that.

 

Several reasons explain the lower-than- expected ridership. In the beginning the BTS only covered 23.5km along two routes in the center of Bangkok; many potential costumers would forego the Skytrain because it did not meet their needs. The missing integration with other public transport modes as well as the limited network not reaching into the surroundings of Bangkok led to low acceptance. Some other mass transit projects were also delayed/cancelled or not optimally interconnected with the BTS. Furthermore, the more wealthy population use personal cars and the BTS fares are higher compared to other public transport modes like buses or government-subsidized ordinary trains. Another aspect not being considered during design was the accessibility of the Skytrain stations. The line had few direct ramps into malls and lacked escalators. Bit by bit, while escalators were installed and side bridges built, ridership increased.

    --http://www.unescap.org/sites/default/files/Case 1 - Traffic Demand - Bangkok BTS.pdf

 

Interestingly this report notes how common overestimating is when it comes to transit projects anywhere, so our doomsters should zoom in on the early estimates and probably be right about something, finally.

 

Empirical studies suggest however that traffic forecasts in the transport sector are  characterized by large errors and considerable  optimism bias. This statement goes in line  with the review conducted on PPP projects  financed by the European Investment Bank  which states that major issues in road projects  occurred because of traffic performance has  been overestimated. Findings disclose that  1/2 of toll road projects failed to meet their  early-year forecasts; often by some margin  (errors of 50% - 70%).

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by JSixpack

[bkk6060]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I've done my share of bus trips between Bkk and Pattaya, and they seem fine to me. I guess if one is in a town car it might seem rougher.

The roads in and around Los Angeles can be worse then this place.

[Airbagwill]

1 hour ago, bkk6060 said:

The roads in and around Los Angeles can be worse then this place.

One has to observe that that is neither here nor there.

I would also dispute that the design of US roads is worse than in Thailand te USA has had over 50 years to get their roads right. They are not the same as Europe's roads and the death rates are higher, but I would suggest tht road engineering in the states is in general way better than what we are used to in Thaiulnd.

[bkk6060]

4 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

One has to observe that that is neither here nor there.

I would also dispute that the design of US roads is worse than in Thailand te USA has had over 50 years to get their roads right. They are not the same as Europe's roads and the death rates are higher, but I would suggest tht road engineering in the states is in general way better than what we are used to in Thaiulnd.

Engineering sure but upkeep and condition are a huge issue.

US infrastructure is in dire straights and this has been well publicized.

My point is too many bad mouth this places roads as if it is the only place with issues.

Far from the case.

[Airbagwill]

21 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Engineering sure but upkeep and condition are a huge issue.

US infrastructure is in dire straights and this has been well publicized.

My point is too many bad mouth this places roads as if it is the only place with issues.

Far from the case.

The problem as you say in many countries is road surface, but in Thailand it runs a lot deeper, the basic design and engineering of the roads is poor and then coupled with corruption the actual construction ends up below standard.

[jerry921]

5 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

One has to observe that that is neither here nor there.

My observation is that Los Angeles is most certainly there. Except for residents for whom it is "here". So I'd have to disagree, I'd say it's either there or here. 

 

 

[Jerry780]

On 28/3/2561 at 12:27 PM, Pattaya46 said:

Please learn to count. 

No way you can do 220 km in 45 minutes running at 250 km/h,

and even far worse if you have to stop at 7 stations on the way !

220km ???

[CLW]

The problem as you say in many countries is road surface, but in Thailand it runs a lot deeper, the basic design and engineering of the roads is poor and then coupled with corruption the actual construction ends up below standard.

From observations a proper preparation of the underground seems to be a common problem here. Starts with footpaths to house foundations and roads.

[Pattaya46]

1 hour ago, Jerry780 said:

220km ???

The original post seems to have been edited, along with the title 

 

There was a part of the source article on Sanook.com that says :

     This high-speed train project has a distance of 220 km, a maximum speed of 250 km/h. It is expected that it will take 45 minutes from U-Tapao to Bangkok. There are 5 stations: Chachoengsao, Chonburi, Sriracha, Pattaya and U-Tapao. Maximum fare of 330 baht.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

23 hours ago, JSixpack said:

Furthermore, the more wealthy population use personal cars and the BTS fares are higher compared to other public transport modes like buses or government-subsidized ordinary trains.

Thank you for supporting what I said.

[Airbagwill]

2 hours ago, CLW said:

21 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

The problem as you say in many countries is road surface, but in Thailand it runs a lot deeper, the basic design and engineering of the roads is poor and then coupled with corruption the actual construction ends up below standard.

From observations a proper preparation of the underground seems to be a common problem here. Starts with footpaths to house foundations and roads.

As i said it is often a symptom of corruption.

A contractor can "save' millions by skimping on the "unseens" in construction...i.e. anything underground once covered is hard to check, it only becomes apparent when the road surface collapses or breaks up or the drains collapse.

 

Countries like UK or USA are facing a problem of lack of routine maintenance due to lack of finance in local government or road departmenrts.

Thailand has a different problem their roads are poorly designed and constructed in the first place due to a system of graft, nepotism and corruption that fails to ensure the best practices in design and construction are adhered to. This results in a lack of meritocracy in departments throughout government departments, both national and local and most visibly manifests itself in road construction... at any time after completion; the problems are then on going.

Anyone driving on any of the "new" roods will see patches of repair, uneven surfaces, switchback bridges etc all within months of that new road being completed.

 

One seriously hopes that this doesn't prevail in the construction of railways and as pointed out above, although possible is less likely to happen due to the foreign interests in design and construction.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Airbagwill

[Rockjockey]

High speed rail: Pattaya to Bangkok in well under an hour - around 300 baht!
 

Image: Sanook
 
Basic times and prices have been announced for the confirmed high speed train linking U-Tapao airport with Suvarnabhumi and Don Mueang in Bangkok.
 
The journey time between U-Tapao and the capital will be a mouth watering 45 minutes.
 
The cost of the journey will be just 330 baht. Speeds will reach 250 km per hour.
 
The train will stop five times from Bangkok at Chacherngsao, Chonburi, Sri Racha, Pattaya and U-Tapao.
 
A government ministerial meeting rubber-stamped the project yesterday that is part of ambitious plans to develop the much vaunted Eastern Economic Corridor (EEC).
 
Source: Sanook
  -- [emoji767] Copyright Thai Visa News 2018-03-28

Sent from my SM-G935F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[thaibeachlovers]

23 hours ago, JSixpack said:

The construction area was only a disaster area (love the hyperbole) in the minds of our Tunnelers. There was an inevitable traffic tie up for a couple of years of course as one would reasonably expect given the constraints of that location. I also remember well the traffic jams for years during the Laemchabang flyover construction.

No, it WAS a disaster area, caused simply by the job being done by people that just don't care about the inconvenience they were causing to everyone.

eg the pavements were destroyed and the area on the side of the road was left with debris all over it making it very difficult to walk there. There is no excuse whatsoever for making the area impassable to pedestrians. If the area wasn't been actually worked on, the debris should have been cleared away, but like I say, the people in charge obviously didn't care.

I don't expect poorly paid labourers to make the effort, but those in charge should have ordered the workers to keep the sides of the road clear for pedestrians.

 

Of course, those that didn't try to walk alongside the road construction would not know what I'm talking about. Drivers and riders are not the only road users and it's not all about them, though some of them think it is.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎4‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 12:58 PM, jerry921 said:

Why don't you expect the construction of the high speed rail to be equally riddled with graft effects that ultimately reduce safety or safe speeds for the train?

If that was correct with all projects, the Skytrain should have collapsed by now. That it hasn't is probably because it was a joint project with an overseas company that presumably had a reputation to maintain.

 

[CLW]

If that was correct with all projects, the Skytrain should have collapsed by now. That it hasn't is probably because it was a joint project with an overseas company that presumably had a reputation to maintain.
 

Yes. Good point.
On another thread on here I read that the opening of the new red line is delayed because the Japanese want to have proper safety and maintenance in place

[JSixpack]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Thank you for supporting what I said.

 

I must decline credit. Your claim that the price was the only reason turned out be nonsense. Moreover, the price differential hasn't changed. BTS is still more expensive than buses, yet now the trains are mobbed. Why? The other far more important issues were addressed. 

[JSixpack]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

eg the pavements were destroyed and the area on the side of the road was left with debris all over it making it very difficult to walk there. There is no excuse whatsoever for making the area impassable to pedestrians.

 

Note that you've gone from "difficult to walk" to the contradictory exaggeration of "impassible." The area wasn't impassable but as one would expect less convenient to negotiate for the few walking there mainly to cross Sukhumvit. I recall only one old pensioner complaining about it when he went there not to walk around but cross. No big deal, really.

 

Quote

Of course, those that didn't try to walk alongside the road construction would not know what I'm talking about.

 

That would be pretty much everyone. It's not a pedestrian area for walking around. Now Beach Road is but as you know it's also a disaster area. 

 

[champers]

4 hours ago, CLW said:

Yes. Good point.
On another thread on here I read that the opening of the new red line is delayed because the Japanese want to have proper safety and maintenance in place

Pesky foreigners.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, JSixpack said:

That would be pretty much everyone. It's not a pedestrian area for walking around.

I guess there was no need to build that pedestrian overpass then, as according to you hardly anyone is walking there to use it. Waste of money.

3 hours ago, JSixpack said:

Now Beach Road is but as you know it's also a disaster area. 

It certainly is every time the walkway collapses due to poor construction. Several times already. Strangely perhaps, it never collapsed before they destroyed many of the old growth trees.

[JSixpack]

15 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I guess there was no need to build that pedestrian overpass then, as according to you hardly anyone is walking there to use it. Waste of money.

 

That some pedestrians do wish to cross Sukhumvit there doesn't make it a "pedestrian area." The desirability of a new pedestrian overpass over a redeveloped major intersection, as compared to a mere traffic light & zebra crossing (cf. Pattaya Nua, where most cross at the light rather than walking to the pedestrian overpass at Soi Potisan), is completely unrelated to the temporary minor inconvenience of stepping carefully around some construction rubble laughably exaggerated into "a disaster."

 

Quote

It certainly is every time the walkway collapses due to poor construction. Several times already. Strangely perhaps, it never collapsed before they destroyed many of the old growth trees.

 

I threw that out for ya, man. Enjoy.

 

[Airbagwill]

20 hours ago, JSixpack said:

 

I must decline credit. Your claim that the price was the only reason turned out be nonsense. Moreover, the price differential hasn't changed. BTS is still more expensive than buses, yet now the trains are mobbed. Why? The other far more important issues were addressed. 

Originally the BTS didn't actually go anywhere .... it was just a status symbol ..  the access up the steps and ticketing were just downright inconvenient.

By extending the lines they've tapped into areas outside the main centre where people actually want to use the trains.

By improving access and tickets they've also increased numbers who CAN use the service

[Airbagwill]

On 4/3/2018 at 12:34 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I've done my share of bus trips between Bkk and Pattaya, and they seem fine to me. I guess if one is in a town car it might seem rougher.

I don't have a "town car", but at least if you are driving yourself you are totally aware of the driving environment.

I have driven in North Africa, North America, Australia, Europe and S.E. Asia and I'm also educated in road safety, so I know a bad road when I see one. I've driven extensively throughout Thailand and certainly don't base my conclusions on the view from a bus window on the road from Bkk to Pattaya.

BTW...most of that route is now motorway.... Thailand can boast a total motorway mileage of less than 200 kilometers. UK has about 3500 km

[Airbagwill]

On 4/5/2018 at 3:25 PM, JSixpack said:

 

That some pedestrians do wish to cross Sukhumvit there doesn't make it a "pedestrian area." The desirability of a new pedestrian overpass over a redeveloped major intersection, as compared to a mere traffic light & zebra crossing (cf. Pattaya Nua, where most cross at the light rather than walking to the pedestrian overpass at Soi Potisan), is completely unrelated to the temporary minor inconvenience of stepping carefully around some construction rubble laughably exaggerated into "a disaster."

 

 

I threw that out for ya, man. Enjoy.

 

The concept of pedestrian bridges is basically flawed and seldom answers the problem of separation of communities by roads.

Of course in Thailand where the authorities staunchly refuse to listen to advice from outside, they continue to be built.

The main problem with bridges is access...not only for disabled but for anyone who feels to knackered to clamber up a big-zag stairway and across a road.... it's a lot of extra work esespecially if you are carrying shopping. So the alternative is to stay at ground level and take the most direct route which is in no way designed for pedestrians. So a poorly positioned and designed bridge can actually increase the likelihood of pedestrian casualties.

Thailand so Dar has patently failed to cater for pedestrians who are regardless, still "road users".

Attempts to introduce the most effective solution, pedestrian crossings, are simply risible.

Another solution is the underpass, but in places like Bkk at sea level and prone to flooding, this may not be practicable.

The fact is that in most cities/countries around the world, the pedestrian has equal rights with other road users .... in Thailand they are an afterthought.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Airbagwill

[Airbagwill]

On 4/3/2018 at 9:55 PM, jerry921 said:

My observation is that Los Angeles is most certainly there. Except for residents for whom it is "here". So I'd have to disagree, I'd say it's either there or here. 

 

 

As with most problems one needs to look bbeneath the surface to get the whole picture