Cryptogeddon

[phycokiller]

On 4/25/2018 at 4:06 PM, Peter Denis said:

Bitcoin is the greatest scam in history

Article written by Bill Harris, former CEO of PayPal.  Good (short) read and makes some very valid points.

https://www.recode.net/2018/4/24/17275202/bitcoin-scam-cryptocurrency-mining-pump-dump-fraud-ico-value?platform=hootsuite

Of note is that PayPal itself has patented a bitcoin wallet intended to reduce both the time and cost it takes to execute transactions, though it is unclear whether the company will build out this idea into a functional product.

[Jabers]

On 4/25/2018 at 4:06 PM, Peter Denis said:

Bitcoin is the greatest scam in history

Article written by Bill Harris, former CEO of PayPal.  Good (short) read and makes some very valid points.

https://www.recode.net/2018/4/24/17275202/bitcoin-scam-cryptocurrency-mining-pump-dump-fraud-ico-value?platform=hootsuite

did anyone expect the CEO of PayPal to love bitcoin? LMAO!

 

its a HUGE threat to his company. obviously he is going to try to scare people.

 

how many taxi drivers loved the idea of uber?

 

 

[Jabers]

On 4/26/2018 at 6:07 PM, Skeptic7 said:

This is a great read and I actually wrote the very same on another thread here on 26...4 months ago! Someone asked for an explanation of Bitcoin. Below is what I wrote. Can click the link below to see the actual original post...

 

A digital, shit-filled bubble mania currency/commodity which...

 

1. has NO intrinsic value

2. has HIGH volatility

3. Is highly unstable

3. IS gambling, not an investment

4. Is purely SPECULATIVE

 

Bitcoin...

 

Understood...NOT

Private...not

Free transactions...not

Tax free...not

EZ to use...not

Widely accepted...not

Even Minimally accepted...not

Safe...not

Secure...not

Intrinsic value...NONE (this bears repeating)

 

To sum it up...an overblown, over-inflated, over-ripe shit filled balloon that is going to explode. Sure...a lucky minority will make or have made BANK...while the vast majority are about to get hosed. Much better name would be...Bitcon.

 

 

 

man you really hate bitcoin.

we get it. you comment on every post in every forum here about it.

you dont like it, ok. but to dedicate your life to it like this is just sad. you are not going to change anything or convince anyone on this board. its either young guys on here that are smart and into cryptos, or old men that you can never change their opinion no matter what the topic.

 

if you feel that a piece of paper holds true value, good for you. but remember, people value different things and world is ever changing.

or do you think animal skins are still valuble and tradable?

[Monomial]

On 4/14/2018 at 12:15 PM, Brunolem said:

... People do not like to deal with multiple currencies in their daily lives! ...

 

And this is the most important statement you have made. You have presented it as a statement of fact though, with absolutely no supporting evidence. What you really should be saying is that you want to believe this is true, and in cases where people have been socialized to believe only 1 currency is valuable, they tend to continue with that narrative until outside events compel them to change.

 

In point of fact, multiple currencies are quite common, and most have no problems dealing with them. Just across the border from Thailand in Northwestern Cambodia, uneducated villagers routinely deal with 3 currencies (USD, THB, KHR) and have no issues. In fact, they become quite clever switching back and forth to maximize their advantage. Add to this that they also barter and buy and sell gold, and you quickly see that people have the innate ability to deal in several currencies with relative ease. Certainly easier than the complex futures, options and derivatives that a single currency requires to give the same flexibility. Now there is something the typical person can not understand. A token to buy diesel fuel, and a separate token to buy fertilizer on the other hand? That is comparatively easy as long as there is a nearly zero cost way to exchange them and they have deep liquidity. Contrast that with trying to explain to a farmer how to sell 2019 call options on his rice crop? You honestly want to argue that is easy?

 

The tokenization of the global economy is just beginning, and Bitcoin is just one of many cryptocurrencies that promise to change the paradigm completely. Bitcoin has many problems and ultimately it might not survive. But it is just the first and most immature, and all of its issues are being addressed by other, more modern crypto variants.  So if you are going to try and argue that cryptocurrencies are not going to change the way people transact simply because it doesn't fit the social conventions to which you have become accustomed, you are going to have a very difficult position to defend.

 

It is best you learn about the segment rather than dismissing it. It is in your future whether you want to believe it or not, and it is not going anywhere.

 

 

 

 

[phycokiller]

3 hours ago, Jabers said:

 

man you really hate bitcoin.

we get it. you comment on every post in every forum here about it.

you dont like it, ok. but to dedicate your life to it like this is just sad. you are not going to change anything or convince anyone on this board. its either young guys on here that are smart and into cryptos, or old men that you can never change their opinion no matter what the topic.

 

if you feel that a piece of paper holds true value, good for you. but remember, people value different things and world is ever changing.

or do you think animal skins are still valuble and tradable?

actually some animal skins  are still valuable and tradable

[Monomial]

On 4/26/2018 at 6:07 PM, Skeptic7 said:

This is a great read and I actually wrote the very same on another thread here on 26...4 months ago! Someone asked for an explanation of Bitcoin. Below is what I wrote. Can click the link below to see the actual original post...

 

A digital, shit-filled bubble mania currency/commodity which...

 

1. has NO intrinsic value

2. has HIGH volatility

3. Is highly unstable

3. IS gambling, not an investment

4. Is purely SPECULATIVE

 

Bitcoin...

 

Understood...NOT

Private...not

Free transactions...not

Tax free...not

EZ to use...not

Widely accepted...not

Even Minimally accepted...not

Safe...not

Secure...not

Intrinsic value...NONE (this bears repeating)

 

To sum it up...an overblown, over-inflated, over-ripe shit filled balloon that is going to explode. Sure...a lucky minority will make or have made BANK...while the vast majority are about to get hosed. Much better name would be...Bitcon.

 

 

Many people who have not studied cryptocurrencies just can't understand why it has value.  I understand this perspective because I used to think the same thing, until I accepted that I was wrong and honestly tried to understand the space. You see, the interesting thing about Bitcoin is not the technology. Cryptos have been tried since 1983 and most failed. There was nothing fundamentally novel about what Satoshi Nakamoto did. It was clever for sure, but the interesting thing about Bitcoin in 2009 is that it actually worked. I knew about Bitcoin in 2009, and like most I laughed at it. I knew about the tech and didn't think it had a chance. Other similar attempts didn't work. Even Satoshi himself, if you read the original exchanges, didn't have any idea that this is what would come out of his experiment.

 

But I was wrong. So were countless others. It thrived, and it encouraged me to study why. There are fundamental driving forces for it. In the early days, it was illicit money transfers for darknet purchases. Modern data mining had made traditional financial transactions too risky. While that driver still exists to some degree, the strongest driver today is helping Chinese get money out of the country. It works like this:

 

Chinese miners create Bitcoin, as well as buy some from international markets with money that comes by selling mining rights. Chinese millionaires buy these Bitcoins for Yuan domestically, and then transfer the money offshore bypassing the currency controls. The need by Chinese for Bitcoin to facilitate this mechanism is what primarily drives demand for the coin today. Liquidity is provided by speculators who are betting that more, not fewer Chinese will want to move their money offshore.

 

Tomorrow the driver may be something else, but however it happened the success of Bitcoin has launched a disruption of the financial segment that can not be undone.  So the analysis above by Skptic is mostly irrelevant. It ignores all the important factors of what Bitcoin is.

 

Bitcoin is the effect of a global financial system that is poised to undergo radical disruption because it no longer serves the needs of the average individual. Those who have a vested interested in the existing system will resist. The other 99% of the planet will eventually adopt cryptos because the model better fits their needs. This is the very, very beginning of something revolutionary, and everyone would be advised to understand it rather than simply reject it out of fear or laziness.

 

 

 

 

[Brunolem]

2 hours ago, Monomial said:

 

In point of fact, multiple currencies are quite common, and most have no problems dealing with them. Just across the border from Thailand in Northwestern Cambodia, uneducated villagers routinely deal with 3 currencies (USD, THB, KHR) and have no issues. In fact, they become quite clever switching back and forth to maximize their advantage. 

I am not sure that Cambodia is the most appropriate example when it comes to talk about the future.

Certainly, people in countries such as Cambodia, Venezuala and some other in Africa, deal with multiple currencies, but only...out of necessity!

They would spare themselves the trouble if only their country could provide a stable currency.

Now don't forget one important thing: the West is getting older and older...there will soon be 50 million octogenarians in the EU (and that doesn't count the even more numerous septuagenarians).

These people, who matter a lot given their numbers, are very unlikely to adapt to multiple currencies.

Cambodia, on the other hand, having discarded most of its adult population in the previous decades, is a country full of young and more flexible minds...

[Lacessit]

The elephant in the room seems to be which cryptocurrencies will succeed, and which will disappear. Until stability is reached in this area, I'm staying out, because I can't understand if these electron streams have value.

[Skeptic7]

7 hours ago, Jabers said:

 

man you really hate bitcoin.

we get it. you comment on every post in every forum here about it.

you dont like it, ok. but to dedicate your life to it like this is just sad. you are not going to change anything or convince anyone on this board. its either young guys on here that are smart and into cryptos, or old men that you can never change their opinion no matter what the topic.

 

if you feel that a piece of paper holds true value, good for you. but remember, people value different things and world is ever changing.

or do you think animal skins are still valuble and tradable?

 Dude thx 4 being such a fan and obsessed...with me! Creepy cyber-stalking, ass-uming u know anything about me or my life. Following my activity on all the threads. This thread is about Cryptos. Surely everyone would 'preciate if u stick to them...difficult as that may be for u.

[Skeptic7]

4 hours ago, Monomial said:

 

Many people who have not studied cryptocurrencies just can't understand why it has value.  I understand this perspective because I used to think the same thing, until I accepted that I was wrong and honestly tried to understand the space. You see, the interesting thing about Bitcoin is not the technology. Cryptos have been tried since 1983 and most failed. There was nothing fundamentally novel about what Satoshi Nakamoto did. It was clever for sure, but the interesting thing about Bitcoin in 2009 is that it actually worked. I knew about Bitcoin in 2009, and like most I laughed at it. I knew about the tech and didn't think it had a chance. Other similar attempts didn't work. Even Satoshi himself, if you read the original exchanges, didn't have any idea that this is what would come out of his experiment.

 

But I was wrong. So were countless others. It thrived, and it encouraged me to study why. There are fundamental driving forces for it. In the early days, it was illicit money transfers for darknet purchases. Modern data mining had made traditional financial transactions too risky. While that driver still exists to some degree, the strongest driver today is helping Chinese get money out of the country. It works like this:

 

Chinese miners create Bitcoin, as well as buy some from international markets with money that comes by selling mining rights. Chinese millionaires buy these Bitcoins for Yuan domestically, and then transfer the money offshore bypassing the currency controls. The need by Chinese for Bitcoin to facilitate this mechanism is what primarily drives demand for the coin today. Liquidity is provided by speculators who are betting that more, not fewer Chinese will want to move their money offshore.

 

Tomorrow the driver may be something else, but however it happened the success of Bitcoin has launched a disruption of the financial segment that can not be undone.  So the analysis above by Skptic is mostly irrelevant. It ignores all the important factors of what Bitcoin is.

 

Bitcoin is the effect of a global financial system that is poised to undergo radical disruption because it no longer serves the needs of the average individual. Those who have a vested interested in the existing system will resist. The other 99% of the planet will eventually adopt cryptos because the model better fits their needs. This is the very, very beginning of something revolutionary, and everyone would be advised to understand it rather than simply reject it out of fear or laziness.

 

You write a lot of intelligent sounding words and paragraphs that may well be accurate...or may well not be. It's all purely speculative, except for possibly why Bitcoin has value. It has value because currently that is the price investors are willing to pay for it. While what I wrote above may be irrelevant...nothing is untrue. And on top of all that...Bitcoin (and all cryptos) have plummeted 50% since that original post. They are no more widely accepted now than a year ago. They are not making any impact or benefit on everyday life or financial transactions...neither for the masses nor the banks and other financial institutions. 

 

Of course you wouldn't know (unless you're a fan like the one above ), but the message I'm sending over myriad threads, which others deny and flat out refuse to accept, is that the crazy volatility make the cryptos irrelevant. AND even if some of these virtual currencies ultimately do have some real, beneficial, everyday uses for the masses and institutions...IMO they will need to stabilize and probably at much reduced levels. 

 

Either way...time will tell, but for now I stick by every word of my above "analysis". 

[phycokiller]

4 hours ago, Monomial said:

 

Many people who have not studied cryptocurrencies just can't understand why it has value.  I understand this perspective because I used to think the same thing, until I accepted that I was wrong and honestly tried to understand the space. You see, the interesting thing about Bitcoin is not the technology. Cryptos have been tried since 1983 and most failed. There was nothing fundamentally novel about what Satoshi Nakamoto did. It was clever for sure, but the interesting thing about Bitcoin in 2009 is that it actually worked. I knew about Bitcoin in 2009, and like most I laughed at it. I knew about the tech and didn't think it had a chance. Other similar attempts didn't work. Even Satoshi himself, if you read the original exchanges, didn't have any idea that this is what would come out of his experiment.

 

But I was wrong. So were countless others. It thrived, and it encouraged me to study why. There are fundamental driving forces for it. In the early days, it was illicit money transfers for darknet purchases. Modern data mining had made traditional financial transactions too risky. While that driver still exists to some degree, the strongest driver today is helping Chinese get money out of the country. It works like this:

 

Chinese miners create Bitcoin, as well as buy some from international markets with money that comes by selling mining rights. Chinese millionaires buy these Bitcoins for Yuan domestically, and then transfer the money offshore bypassing the currency controls. The need by Chinese for Bitcoin to facilitate this mechanism is what primarily drives demand for the coin today. Liquidity is provided by speculators who are betting that more, not fewer Chinese will want to move their money offshore.

 

Tomorrow the driver may be something else, but however it happened the success of Bitcoin has launched a disruption of the financial segment that can not be undone.  So the analysis above by Skptic is mostly irrelevant. It ignores all the important factors of what Bitcoin is.

 

Bitcoin is the effect of a global financial system that is poised to undergo radical disruption because it no longer serves the needs of the average individual. Those who have a vested interested in the existing system will resist. The other 99% of the planet will eventually adopt cryptos because the model better fits their needs. This is the very, very beginning of something revolutionary, and everyone would be advised to understand it rather than simply reject it out of fear or laziness.

 

 

 

 

I think the driver has been Japan, the last bubble began april last year the same time as japan legalized, price was about $1000, now $9000

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed.  

 

Continue and face a suspension.   Personal commentary is not appreciated.  

[Peter Denis]

Cryptocurrencies are Digital Version of Children’s Play Paper Money

> https://cryptofraud.wordpress.com/

Interesting article making some very valid points.

However, stating or implying as the author does, that crypto-currency has no value, is incorrect.

Even though they are in essence nothing more than figures on a digital ledger, the value of crypto's are ultimately determined by what people are prepared to pay for it.

The article is relevant - for me at least - in that it clarifies the difference between fiat money and crypto's.

Food for thought.

 

[phycokiller]

57 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Cryptocurrencies are Digital Version of Children’s Play Paper Money

> https://cryptofraud.wordpress.com/

Interesting article making some very valid points.

However, stating or implying as the author does, that crypto-currency has no value, is incorrect.

Even though they are in essence nothing more than figures on a digital ledger, the value of crypto's are ultimately determined by what people are prepared to pay for it.

The article is relevant - for me at least - in that it clarifies the difference between fiat money and crypto's.

Food for thought.

 

possibly relevant https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2018-06-19/goldman-s-blankfein-says-he-s-not-worried-about-cryptocurrencies-in-systemic-way-video

[lkn]

3 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

Even though they are in essence nothing more than figures on a digital ledger, the value of crypto's are ultimately determined by what people are prepared to pay for it.

Crypto-coins lack objective value, i.e. they do not provide a revenue stream (like a stock would), interests (like a bond/loan), shelter (like a house), nourishment (like food), they do not enable you to do things you couldn’t do without them¹ (like many tangible products do), etc.

 

If all you need to demonstrate value is that someone else is willing to pay for it, then by that definition, Bernie Madoff created a tremendous amount of value.

Crypto-coins are actually worse than a zero-sum game, because value is transferred to the miners, who have to pay their electricity bill, so if everyone were to cash out, there would be more losers than winners.

 

¹ I realize that proponents will claim that crypto-coins do allow fast/cheap transfers, or transfers that do not need government approval. These claims though are questionable. First, fiat is not all that bad: I can do same-country instant free transfers. I can do same-day transfers within EU which are free up to 50,000 EUR, and I can do EU or US to Thailand as “next day” (likely due to time zone). Second, crypto-coins have shown us that they can have both pathetic transfer times and high transfer fees, and fast transfers with crypto-coins by definition makes the transfer less secure, as we saw with Bitcoin Gold where a majority attack was successfully performed.

[phycokiller]

20 hours ago, lkn said:

Crypto-coins lack objective value, i.e. they do not provide a revenue stream (like a stock would), interests (like a bond/loan), shelter (like a house), nourishment (like food), they do not enable you to do things you couldn’t do without them¹ (like many tangible products do), etc.

 

If all you need to demonstrate value is that someone else is willing to pay for it, then by that definition, Bernie Madoff created a tremendous amount of value.

Crypto-coins are actually worse than a zero-sum game, because value is transferred to the miners, who have to pay their electricity bill, so if everyone were to cash out, there would be more losers than winners.

 

¹ I realize that proponents will claim that crypto-coins do allow fast/cheap transfers, or transfers that do not need government approval. These claims though are questionable. First, fiat is not all that bad: I can do same-country instant free transfers. I can do same-day transfers within EU which are free up to 50,000 EUR, and I can do EU or US to Thailand as “next day” (likely due to time zone). Second, crypto-coins have shown us that they can have both pathetic transfer times and high transfer fees, and fast transfers with crypto-coins by definition makes the transfer less secure, as we saw with Bitcoin Gold where a majority attack was successfully performed.

I pretty much agree, cryptos are purely a currency, thats their advantage. but how are transfers in the EU done for free? they still require banks, servers, electricity, people to administer it etc. I presume it must be subsidized by transfers over 50,000 or paid for by yearly bank fees or the like

[Peter Denis]

 Wow, bitcoin exposed >

 

https://hackernoon.com/a-brief-history-of-bitcon-cf358da30bf0

 

[phycokiller]

8 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

Wow, bitcoin exposed >

 

https://hackernoon.com/a-brief-history-of-bitcon-cf358da30bf0

I think you will find that fraud has been around a lot longer then cryptocurrencies, fraudsters arent really too fussy what currencies they use

[Peter Denis]

9 hours ago, phycokiller said:

I think you will find that fraud has been around a lot longer then cryptocurrencies, fraudsters arent really too fussy what currencies they use

https://hackernoon.com/a-brief-history-of-bitcon-cf358da30bf0

True, but having the mechanisms behind it explained as clearly as in this article, was an eye-opener for me.

[Skeptic7]

And the slide (crash) back to reality continues. Lots more downside, looks like. Lower highs on the bumps and lower lows on the dumps...

 

[phycokiller]

7 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

And the slide (crash) back to reality continues. Lots more downside, looks like. Lower highs on the bumps and lower lows on the dumps...

 

looks like you posted that little too soon

[Skeptic7]

2 hours ago, phycokiller said:

looks like you posted that little too soon

Too soon??? Hardly. This downtrend has been going on for months and I've posted about it for...months. Granted a nice little short term jump...most likely before an even bigger dump. A classic lower highs and lower lows downtrend. If it can ever claw it's way back above $8000, then you might have a legit point. But at present, that "up scenario" reversal is clearly the one that is too soon to call. 

 

[phycokiller]

4 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Too soon??? Hardly. This downtrend has been going on for months and I've posted about it for...months. Granted a nice little short term jump...most likely before an even bigger dump. A classic lower highs and lower lows downtrend. If it can ever claw it's way back above $8000, then you might have a legit point. But at present, that "up scenario" reversal is clearly the one that is too soon to call. 

 

yes sure, it was the daily underneath that youve cut off I was commenting on 

[Hummin]

On 4/13/2018 at 8:48 PM, Jabers said:

 

i agree. its sad that there are people that dont like something and spend all their time on an old man forum arguing against it.

i dont like toyotas, but i dont spend my life collecting thousands of post on forums arguing with people that like that.

 

its pathetic it really is.

 

i have found that most the people so negative about it, are the people that are mad at themselves for not buying in early because they know they missed their chance at millions. and now they are so pissed about missing the chance all they can do is try to fight it and hope it never rises anymore just so they can feel better about themselves

When you know toyota is a shit car, and people still trying to convince you it is a good buy, it is still a shit car? You should have bought a Lada when you had the chance? Get real, crypto is maybe the future, but who really know wich one you should invest in, and what the future brings! A scam is a scam, and this one it is at is best a pyramid where most people will loose!

[phycokiller]

30 minutes ago, Hummin said:

When you know toyota is a shit car, and people still trying to convince you it is a good buy, it is still a shit car? You should have bought a Lada when you had the chance? Get real, crypto is maybe the future, but who really know wich one you should invest in, and what the future brings! A scam is a scam, and this one it is at is best a pyramid where most people will loose!

nice, but, you destroy your own argument by using faulty logic. "no one knows the future" - "most people will lose". are you implying nobody but you know the future? a little far fetched to say the least. and not only does it not make sense but it doesnt relate to the reality that in the last 7 years only those that bought in the last 6 months have lost, in other words if you bought bitcoin you have  had over a 90% change of profiting, so far, at least if you didnt follow your advice you would have. also calling something a scam doesnt mean it is unless you provide some evidence.

[Thian]

On 4/2/2018 at 10:50 AM, timendres said:

As I see it, the winners in the cryptocurrency arena will be those who are now putting in place currencies that are backed by real assets (like SwissRealCoin),

Swissrealcoin has the same chart as bitcoin...but maybe now is the perfect moment to join?

[phycokiller]

24 minutes ago, Thian said:

Swissrealcoin has the same chart as bitcoin...but maybe now is the perfect moment to join?

wont that just follow the price of swiss real estate? their stated goal is to keep the price stable, so as an investment its not going to be particuly profitable, secure maybe. doesnt seem to be working at being stable so far tho judging by that chart. for me the attraction of cryptos is they are backed by nothing, just pure currencies

[Hummin]

58 minutes ago, phycokiller said:

nice, but, you destroy your own argument by using faulty logic. "no one knows the future" - "most people will lose". are you implying nobody but you know the future? a little far fetched to say the least. and not only does it not make sense but it doesnt relate to the reality that in the last 7 years only those that bought in the last 6 months have lost, in other words if you bought bitcoin you have  had over a 90% change of profiting, so far, at least if you didnt follow your advice you would have. also calling something a scam doesnt mean it is unless you provide some evidence.

If you bought early enough, same as a pyramid system, now they teasing you with rapid highs, and then low again, and how many different cryptos is it? More than 1000 you can buy, and all of them is legit? 

 

Lets keep it to the top 10, and who made money yet? Those who bought early, and pulled out on top, and now maybe invest again, still they have to wait for next top to get out right? It is a f....ng game, and you now it! When times come, and several countries select the next path, lets say G7 (G8 russia is suspended), or China and russia decides (russia and china buy gold, and have done it for years!) we will get an idea where it goes. Now it is pure speculations at its best. 

[Brunolem]

1 hour ago, Hummin said:

When times come, and several countries select the next path, lets say G7 (G8 russia is suspended), or China and russia decides (russia and china buy gold, and have done it for years!) we will get an idea where it goes. Now it is pure speculations at its best. 

Some speculation...

Right now, fiat money, and especially the dollar, is on its last legs, running on fumes.

Many think that the next recession/financial crisis will be the last nail in the coffin.

Actually, world leaders know that...for once they know something...

Yet, they don't agree on what will come next.

The totally bankrupt and globalist West wants to go on with fiat money, and would eagerly replace the actual currencies with something like the IMF SDR...a global common fiat currency, a wet dream for globalists!

Meanwhile, the East, notably China and Russia, would rather go on with a system mixing past and future, gold and crypto, maybe crypto backed by gold, in the same way that the new Shangai oil benchmark is backed by gold.

This is probably why these countries are buying gold hands over fists.

Last April, Russia dumped half of its reserves in US bonds and used the proceeds to buy more gold.

We will see what happen soon enough...

[Hummin]

@Brunolem

 

Do you think any of the economic powers will jump on bitcoins or any any other crypto coins they do not have any influence or control over? I think there is a logic answer to that question.