Methods or ways to reduce pollution in Thailand/SEA

[EnlightenedAtheist]

Every year, at around this time of the year, farmers (of legal or illegal substances) all over the region burn the waste or residue products of their crop that are laced with pesticides. In some areas of the North, in particular, there are forest fires that are either lit as a result of this burning or are set by thunderstorm, ... which compound the problem. Car/tuk tuk, songthaews' exhausts and other street or even yard  burning/cooking also add to the problem as well. There are also coal fire plants releasing particles in the air too. Pollution is a big issue in SEA and Thailand or it should be.

 

The health hazard to citizens created by these burnings are high. While it is true that the rich and the powerful can go to coastal regions and avoid most of the pollution and that many can afford air purifiers (car and home), high quality face masks,  and a/c that enable them to reduce their exposure to the toxic chemicals and particles, the vast majority of citizens cannot (although 3M face masks at 100 B. lasting for one month are quite affordable). 

 

Complaining about the problem does little to alleviate it. In fact, it probably channels the energy away from addressing or fixing the problem. 

 

What are the solutions that are or could be implemented to incentivize farmers, citizens, industry, and governments to take action and reduce pollution?

 

While it is likely that some measures were put in place in the past, Rome was not built in one day. Sidney, Chicago, London either!

Edited April 11, 2018 by EnlightenedAtheist

[Brunolem]

3 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

What are the solutions that are or could be implemented to incentivize farmers, citizens, industry, and governments to take action and reduce pollution?

None!

No one is going to take (real and serious) action, anywhere in the world and not only in SEA!

In 2017, the world once again beat its record of carbon emissions despite all the grand meetings and the fanfare.

Meanwhile, oil and gas extraction is proceeding, unabatted...as well as the release of plastic and garbage in the oceans, of toxic fertilizers and pesticides in the farms, and so on...

Earth will eventually clean herself...after getting rid of her cancerous cells: us!

 

[Suradit69]

7 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

Pollution is a big issue in SEA and Thailand or it should be.

Environmental protection should be a big issue world-wide, but it generally takes a distant second place to short term economic factors ... and that is a problem not limited to SEA.

 

In a certain major western  country the government is busily throwing out the minimal regulations already in place and denying the validity of scientific projections of the consequences.

 

Once again some people suddenly see problems in Thailand while being blind to similar problems internationally.

 

 

[bwpage3]

Thailand is a country where solutions are far and few between if ever.

 

Remember the govt claiming there would be no more floods and it still floods every year?

 

Incentives do not work in Thailand. Incentives go into the pockets of the corrupt leaders and politicians.

 

One has to understand, living in a country like Thailand, which is still basically third world, is going to have a ton of problems no one wants to fix. They want to take the "fix-it" money and put in in their own pockets.

 

Pollution, plastic in the ocean, excessive cars for the infrastructure, flooding, droughts, you name it.

 

Year in and year out, there is never any solutions.

 

You have to accept life is the way it is if you want to live in Thailand.

[StreetCowboy]

I think the first step is to take responsibility for your own contribution, show a good example, and stop criticising others for their lack of action.

 

I have adopted the target of reducing municipal traffic by 10%, and to achieve this I am going to cycle into the office twice a month.

[duanebigsby]

On a positive note....

 

I live in Chiang Rai where 6 years ago the smoke was so thick I had to keep my windows closed and stayed indoors as much as possible. I swept ash off the living room floor daily.

 

Two years ago the Thai government implemented and enforced strict burning regulations and the problem was dramatically reduced. This year is even better than last. It's still hazy as Thailand hasn't totally convinced Burma and Laos to follow suit, but my windows are open, no ash on the floor.

 

Each year there is more environmentalism taught in the schools. Almost every school has recycling programs.

It'll be a generation before awareness and action can become the norm but it is getting better.

 

 

[canopy]

10 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

Once again some people suddenly see problems in Thailand while being blind to similar problems internationally.

 

Just deny the problem exists eh? Maybe you need take a tour of the north this time of year to put this problem in perspective. The horizon is a pretty big place, but they have managed to fill it with smoke and keep it really bad half the year. There is only one air supply out there and everyone is breathing it. The result is hospitals filled with people with respiratory problems which can rise to over 100,000 people a year not to mention everyone else suffering to one extent or another. The fire starters attitude is "I do what I want". The population simply puts up with it and does nothing. This is complete and unnecessary nonsense. I am appalled at your comment belittling this problem. It's one of the most commented on issues in all of Thailand because people go there thinking they will find a clean countryside like elsewhere in the world and cannot believe it when they see the smog and have to breathe it. There are days Chiang Mai has the worst air pollution of any city in the world, even worse than any city in China.

 

Did you know this year people wanted to have a peaceful meeting about this problem in Chiang Mai? And do you know what the reaction was? The government demanded they cancel the meeting and on top of this instantly slapped a lawsuit against them. Pretty touchy subject that apparently someone does not want you to know about.

 

[duanebigsby]

canopy

 

I wonder what makes the difference between Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai.

My earlier post about burning getting better in Chiang Rai,  doesn't seem to be happening for CM.

 

I looked up Air Quality index this morning and CM was 167-dangerous and CR was 79-moderate.

 

Could it be the traffic and not the burning?

 

 

[Brunolem]

3 hours ago, canopy said:

 

Just deny the problem exists eh?

I think Suradit69 is right in the sense that pollution, of all kinds, is really a global issue and pointing at Chiang Mai is not the way to deal with such an issue.

If you want to focus only on grass fires, just look at the gigantic cloud extending from Pakistan to China, all along the Himalayas...

Yet and with respect to other kinds of pollutions, these fires are far from being the worst...they are temporary and don't have long lasting effects like, for example, plastic in the oceans or the depletion of soils.

In other words, the planet is not endengered by these irresponsible farmers and their fires, yet the same cannot be said for multiple other sources of pollution.

[rickudon]

Put it in perspective - what was your own country like 50 years ago? When at university in Birmingham, UK, if you blew your nose you would get a black patch in your handkerchief, or grey on a good day! Urban rivers were often fishless due to pollution, and the litter, while not like Thailand's, was considerably worse than today. Farmers burning stubble was a big problem in the 80's (burning caught on because it reduced weeds and was cheaper to do). So Thailand's problems are not new, we had them also.

 

So stop moaning that Thai's will never learn. They will, but it isn't something you change overnight. It takes years, or even decades. And it requires people who are interested in a nice environment - not a priority if all your money is needed to buy food and pay bills.

 

Thai's do have a very cavalier attitude to laws, so that is only part of the answer. But it is changing. In my village, litter is down about 75% on 8 years ago, the number of houses with gardens at the roadside has more than doubled, and their is a lot more colour (the predominate house colour before was creosote brown). Not all good - 8 years ago only one in 10 houses had cars or trucks, now it's one in two. Only a few farmers burn their rice fields.

 

If you don't see these changes, you either haven't been here very long, or you are not very observant. Or rarely get outside of a city.

[canopy]

And let me put this in perspective for you. This isn't Birmingham or Bangkok. This is wide open "green" countryside shrouded with horrendous smokey air half the year so thick you can't even see the sun set or rise, everything stinks, and 100% of the population's are subject to health problems. Comparing countryside to the biggest, smokiest cities in the world is stupid, though surprisingly common because that's the class of air people are getting. Let's look at today's air quality picture below. Chiang Rai has unhealthy air, same as Chiang Mai. Traffic's role does not seem significant when considering remote places often have worse air than the cities. Look at the picture again. Today Chiang Rai (top) has air over twice as bad as Bangkok (bottom). Must be the traffic...not!

 

If you want to learn more about the problem there are some good threads on it in the Chiang Mai regional forum. I think it is a waste of space to rehash it here. This should be a place for people who acknowledge the significance of the problem to discuss solutions.

 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

Today we are over 200 on https://aqicn.org/city/thailand/chiangmai/city-hall/.

 

So, I have decided to honour and adhere to the topic and present a solution. I have been told that we they allowed to meander here, which is odd because we couldn't do it on the smog, smoke thread. Hey, change is good!

 

So, for a solution, here is something recent: Greener and cheaper technique for biofuel production (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/04/180406100547.htm)

 

Now, you must go beyond the title to find what I am looking for. 

 

Quote

 

Biofuels produced from unprocessed cellulosic materials such as plant biomass, as well as agriculture, horticultural and organic waste, are expected to meet growing energy demands without increasing greenhouse gas emissions resulting from the burning of fossil fuels. These cellulosic materials are in great abundance, environmentally friendly, and economically sustainable.

 

 

 

[...]

 

Quote

 

The novel technique developed by the NUS team could potentially be a game-changing technology for cost effective and sustainable biofuel production [and slash-and-burn agriculture*].

 

Spent mushroom compost -- typically composed of wheat straw and saw dust -- is the residual compost waste generated by mushroom farming. The microorganisms in the waste are left to evolve naturally for more than two years to obtain the unique TG57 strain.

 

The fermentation process is simple, and no complicated pre-treatment or genetic modification of the microorganisms is required. When cellulose is added, the bacterium simply digests it to produce butanol as the main product.

 

*Added by me.

 

So, if this is not obvious, the idea is that farmers could make money collecting the waste they burn. They could also use the fuel I suppose. 

 

Given the medical costs to treat children and people, in general, that develop respiratory diseases, I would think that this solution would be a win-win-win for all involved. Doctors and big pharma might not like it though. Maybe that is another problem.

 

Now, are there any Thais on TV that would be so kind and translate this, and give this to the government or university departments? Hey, maybe you can do it or know of someone. Complaining about a problem does not accomplish anything.

 

Edited April 15, 2018 by EnlightenedAtheist

[EnlightenedAtheist]

Governments could give incentives to buyers to buy electric cars too like this Canadian mayor/coun cil/city decided to do: https://ca.news.yahoo.com/laval-offers-citizens-2k-subsidy-182110662.html Should I phone the mayor of a Thai city that is plagued with bad air myself? I don't think it is my business, but I can Thai citizens to do this. Many want change. I am sure. I am sure if women knew what we know, they would.

[jackdd]

Won't happen in Thailand.

Thailand doesn't have a police force who could enforce such things in a large scale.

And most Thais just don't care about their life or that of others, if they would care the first thing they would do is wearing helmets, long before they would think about blowing stuff in the air is bad for everybody's health.

[boomerangutang]

Sorry if this sounds simplistic: but it starts with awareness.

 

Teachers/parents should teach their children about environmental husbandry.  

 

So much more could be done in Thailand and neighboring countries.  

 

If there was a report card for humanity, on the topic of environmental husbandry, I rate us an E.   It would be an F, except for the relative small % of humans who are doing tangibly helpful things.    

[StreetCowboy]

On 4/11/2018 at 11:09 PM, StreetCowboy said:

I think the first step is to take responsibility for your own contribution, show a good example, and stop criticising others for their lack of action.

 

I have adopted the target of reducing municipal traffic by 10%, and to achieve this I am going to cycle into the office twice a month.

I've cycled into the office three times this month, and there's still a week to go.

 

What have you guys done?

 

 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

39 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

I've cycled into the office three times this month, and there's still a week to go.

 

What have you guys done?

 

 

Sure. This is a personal decision that is beneficial for the environment. Do you think it is beneficial for you to breathe the polluted air? Unless you are using a 3M filter mask, you surely will do a lot of damage to your body and could even die. Don't laugh. I has an acquaintance of mine that kicked the bucket while exercising in Chiang Mai in March. It was defin. the air. Btw, I am using a fan right now, but I would prefer a/c. This is beneficial for the environment, but I am still breathing crappy air. Still, I am not breathing it like if I were biking.

 

The question is looking for solutions that deals with the source of the issue. The issue is people are breathing crappy air.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 4/12/2018 at 11:19 AM, Brunolem said:

Yet and with respect to other kinds of pollutions, these fires are far from being the worst...they are temporary and don't have long lasting effects like, for example, plastic in the oceans or the depletion of soils.

In other words, the planet is not endengered by these irresponsible farmers and their fires, yet the same cannot be said for multiple other sources of pollution.

 

Actually in terms of acute impact on human health, the burning of agricultural fields is probably THE most dire, immediate health problem in Thailand.

 

People can buy bottled/filtered water or filter it themselves. But everyone needs air to breathe 24/7, and the burning of agricultural fields wastes more than any other source here creates high levels of PM2.5 particulate pollution, which is particles so small that they bypass all the body's natural defenses, get absorbed into the bloodstream thru your lungs, and act a lot like cigarette smoking. Except, it's like every man, woman and child smoking 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, just by breathing.

 

High/increased levels of PM2.5 pollution like has been occurring particularly in the North of Thailand have been proven to shorten average lifespans by years and contribute to respiratory problems, COPD, cancers, etc etc.  If I had to start somewhere in Thailand with environmentalism and preventing pollution beyond the current state of affairs, reducing PM2.5 pollution in the air definitely would be the top of the list.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

59 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

The question is looking for solutions that deals with the source of the issue. The issue is people are breathing crappy air.

 

This is Thailand, there is no democracy and little responsiveness of the government to public's (ordinary citizen) wishes, concerns, safety, etc.

 

So, I'm afraid, the best any of us can do here is to take measures to combat and minimize our exposure to the problem -- not anything to deal with the sources. Unless your family happens to be in the farm business and has the habit of burning their fields every year.

 

The 3M VFlex masks sold at Tescos and elsewhere are relatively cheap and actually effective, unlike the paper hospital style masks the Thais often are seen wearing.  Also, 3M Filtrete sheets placed over your regular air con filters do a very good job of reducing indoor particulate/PM2.5 pollution, but have to be changed pretty frequently when the ambient air is bad.

 

And, although there are lot of VERY expensive air purifiers being sold in the department stores here, there are also much less expensive models made by Sharp, Toshiba and Hatari that do a pretty good job indoors, provided you size the units properly to the size room you're trying to purify the air in. And of course, keep the doors and windows closed to outside pretty much 100% of the time. Otherwise, you're just inviting the bad air outside inside to your home.

 

Edited April 22, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[canopy]

I don't think awareness will go anywhere. People have been "aware" smoking is bad for them for a long time and yet new smokers simply don't care. To get a small appreciation of just how much Thai's enjoy their burning recall the gentleman who asked politely for his thai neighbor to stop burning plastic in their yard and even offered to pay them money not to do so. They declined everything. The Thai's get so much enjoyment from their fires they will never stop on their own or by gentle persuasion.

 

On the other hand I have been impressed with what can be enforced in this country when there is a willingness to get something done. But there has been no will to stamp out all the fires.  The state of affairs is people enjoy setting them and the others breathing it are totally ok putting up with it.

 

[Brunolem]

15 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Actually in terms of acute impact on human health, the burning of agricultural fields is probably THE most dire, immediate health problem in Thailand.

 

People can buy bottled/filtered water or filter it themselves. But everyone needs air to breathe 24/7, and the burning of agricultural fields wastes more than any other source here creates high levels of PM2.5 particulate pollution, which is particles so small that they bypass all the body's natural defenses, get absorbed into the bloodstream thru your lungs, and act a lot like cigarette smoking. Except, it's like every man, woman and child smoking 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, just by breathing.

 

High/increased levels of PM2.5 pollution like has been occurring particularly in the North of Thailand have been proven to shorten average lifespans by years and contribute to respiratory problems, COPD, cancers, etc etc.  If I had to start somewhere in Thailand with environmentalism and preventing pollution beyond the current state of affairs, reducing PM2.5 pollution in the air definitely would be the top of the list.

 

I agree, but it is not 365 days a year...otherwise they would never grow anything!

It is more like one or two months per year...and this is far from being limited to Thailand.

Smoke coming from Sumatra often travel all the way up to Penang and the Southern Thai provinces...smoke from Northern Pakistan and India travels along the Himalayas all the way to China...

Thailand is a small fish in a big pond of polluters...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

45 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Thailand is a small fish in a big pond of polluters...

Not if you're living in an area where the localized burning is still occurring.

 

[Brunolem]

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Not if you're living in an area where the localized burning is still occurring.

 

And yet you chose to live in Bangkok, one of the most polluted cities on Earth...and there it is 365 days a year!

They don't burn crops in Bangkok, but almost everything else...

When I worked there, I had serious medical issues, especially with my nose and eyes...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

11 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

And yet you chose to live in Bangkok, one of the most polluted cities on Earth...and there it is 365 days a year!

They don't burn crops in Bangkok, but almost everything else...

When I worked there, I had serious medical issues, especially with my nose and eyes...

 

Sounds like a big fish to me... if I were to buy your argument.

 

But in truth, in terms of air pollution, BKK is nowhere near one of the most polluted cities in the world. China and dozens of its cities have the distinction of taking that award, along with some places in India.

 

 

http://berkeleyearth.lbl.gov/air-quality/CityAverageList.php

Edited April 23, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[EnlightenedAtheist]

Some people told me --dismissively-- a while back back in the smog and smoke thread that there were many possible solutions to solve this matter, but none would amount to anything. Now, I see the conversation continues to be along the line that Thais will never change and since other countries are doing it, there is nothing that can be done about it. Still, there are reports that there are fewer fires than before in Thailand. If they are credible, what happened? 

 

Btw, since people are choosing to be off-topic, let me indulge a little and broach the topic of change --or the lack of thereof-- that some have spoken about. Change takes time and perseverance because systems and habits are hard to break. I know by experience. Some of us have had to wait for 250 years (ahahaha) to see the English spelling system be cleaned up and very few English-speakers, who usually scream and shout bloody murder when the air needs to be cleaned up as this thread demonstrate or scream when Thais don't seem to reform anything as people do on this forum on all threads all of the time, are suddenly so UNwilling to empathize and reform because it is unpleasant to do so. Maybe there is a lesson or a trait that unites all humans somewhere in here. In any case, the reaction has been swift --and not-- as I bet some even go as far as blocking me from even broaching the topic. While I might be perceived to be off-topic, I am not. A newspaper, a few journalists and a few people (incl. Thais) tried to alert the public and start a demonstration last month. That is one way to affect change. However, did you see how the mayor of Chiang Mai dealt with the problem? There were some Thais who were interested in change, but they couldn't. So, if we are going to talk about impediments to change, we should also add that to the tally: brute dictatorial force of an elite group or another form of that reaction when something unpleasant is being showcased. It seems that people are simply unwilling to change their ways. Btw, from what I hear, China -- the prototypical dictatorship-- is trying to clean up its air (and act) now. I know that it has taken too much time, but it is taking place. There is hope. Change takes time. Let's keep the pressure up. Not sure if the financial impact (loss of tourism) had more to do with the reaction, but the reaction was swift. It looks like they were very sensitive to the bad publicity.

 

In any case, can those people who said they had lots of means to clean up the air list those? To be frank, I am not interested in personal solutions (use of masks,  filtering systems,... ), but societal solutions (that could benefit the whole population not just YOU). I am not talking about farfetched plans either.

[canopy]

The difference is a lot of people in Bangkok can choose to stay in air conditioning most all the time: air conditioned transport, accommodation, restaurants, everything. I don't think a stroll through Paragon is going to result in any respiratory issues. But as you get to smaller and smaller places in Thailand you spend more time breathing the full brunt of the polluted air. A lot of poor people can't even properly seal their houses shut from the elements; there are big gaps to the outside.

 

I think the first step is to take responsibility for your own contribution, show a good example, and stop criticising others for their lack of action.

 

Nothing wrong with doing your part, but this will do nothing to solve the problem. The problem is not you, it's the people out there burning stuff. It's like thinking that if you personally quit smoking then it will cause a chain reaction to help the rest of the world to also stop smoking. Afraid not.

 

 

5 hours ago, Brunolem said:

It is more like one or two months per year

 

False! We can see the smog is visually present half the year or so. And if using the US EPA standard to measure air quality which is strict to be sure, there has been only 6 months in the past 5 years that averaged clean air. It's possible to go an entire year without a single good month of air. I remember when certain people used to say the bad air only lasted a week or two out of the year. The truth is far different as we learn more and more about it and people are gradually starting to accept it.

 

[StreetCowboy]

1 hour ago, canopy said:

The difference is a lot of people in Bangkok can choose to stay in air conditioning most all the time: air conditioned transport, accommodation, restaurants, everything. I don't think a stroll through Paragon is going to result in any respiratory issues. But as you get to smaller and smaller places in Thailand you spend more time breathing the full brunt of the polluted air. A lot of poor people can't even properly seal their houses shut from the elements; there are big gaps to the outside.

 

 

Nothing wrong with doing your part, but this will do nothing to solve the problem. The problem is not you, it's the people out there burning stuff. It's like thinking that if you personally quit smoking then it will cause a chain reaction to help the rest of the world to also stop smoking. Afraid not.

 

 

 

False! We can see the smog is visually present half the year or so. And if using the US EPA standard to measure air quality which is strict to be sure, there has been only 6 months in the past 5 years that averaged clean air. It's possible to go an entire year without a single good month of air. I remember when certain people used to say the bad air only lasted a week or two out of the year. The truth is far different as we learn more and more about it and people are gradually starting to accept it.

 

If you stop smoking, it encourages others to stop smoking.

If you turn off your air conditioning, they can close the coal-fired power station.  

If you reduce the level of air pollution by 1% you save tens of the thousands of lives that are allegedly lost.

Pointing a finger doesn’t do anything but leave three fingers pointing back at yourself.

[Brunolem]

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Sounds like a big fish to me... if I were to buy your argument.

 

But in truth, in terms of air pollution, BKK is nowhere near one of the most polluted cities in the world. China and dozens of its cities have the distinction of taking that award, along with some places in India.

 

 

http://berkeleyearth.lbl.gov/air-quality/CityAverageList.php

China doesn't stop to amaze...actually much more than amazing Thailand!

 

Fascinating to see how a communist country doesn't hesitate to destroy itself in order to better serve...capitalism!

[Brunolem]

2 hours ago, canopy said:

The difference is a lot of people in Bangkok can choose to stay in air conditioning most all the time: air conditioned transport, accommodation, restaurants, everything. I don't think a stroll through Paragon is going to result in any respiratory issues. But as you get to smaller and smaller places in Thailand you spend more time breathing the full brunt of the polluted air. A lot of poor people can't even properly seal their houses shut from the elements; there are big gaps to the outside.

 

 

Nothing wrong with doing your part, but this will do nothing to solve the problem. The problem is not you, it's the people out there burning stuff. It's like thinking that if you personally quit smoking then it will cause a chain reaction to help the rest of the world to also stop smoking. Afraid not.

 

 

 

False! We can see the smog is visually present half the year or so. And if using the US EPA standard to measure air quality which is strict to be sure, there has been only 6 months in the past 5 years that averaged clean air. It's possible to go an entire year without a single good month of air. I remember when certain people used to say the bad air only lasted a week or two out of the year. The truth is far different as we learn more and more about it and people are gradually starting to accept it.

 

So it's worse than I thought...but not surprising.

Here in Sisaket, far away from any industrial activities, and little or no crop burning, the air is terrible!

Me and my son are on anti-allergie medicine (running nose) all year long, and eyes infections are frequent in the population around, depending from where the wind is blowing.

 

We have done a fine mess during the past decades, which is maybe why our dear leaders are in such a hurry to go to war, so as to wipe the slate clean...one way or another...

[StreetCowboy]

16 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

So it's worse than I thought...but not surprising.

Here in Sisaket, far away from any industrial activities, and little or no crop burning, the air is terrible!

Me and my son are on anti-allergie medicine (running nose) all year long, and eyes infections are frequent in the population around, depending from where the wind is blowing.

 

We have done a fine mess during the past decades, which is maybe why our dear leaders are in such a hurry to go to war, so as to wipe the slate clean...one way or another...

Maybe it’s hay-fever