Paid deposit for new gate but worker is not delivering on agreement

[cyberfarang]

9 hours ago, rossd said:

Whenever we have work done on our bungalow we purchase the material and pay the subbie for labour only. You should never allow your subbie to provide the materials, you will only get screwed.

Exactly. Seems the OP fell for the old, need money upfront to purchase the materials scam.

 

Two ways of doing this. As you said; purchase the materials yourself or go with the contractor to the shop, pay for the materials and have them delivered directly to your home by the merchant.

 

Guess it`s too late for the OP now, he`s been stitched up.

Edited April 30, 2018 by cyberfarang

[jacko45k]

15 hours ago, KittenKong said:

Never pay for anything in advance in Thailand. Pay only when you have got exactly what you want in your hands.

Where there are substantial materials involved it is quite common to ask for an advance, unfair to ask the contractor to spend his own money on it, as he may well end up losing out too. If possible one can procure materials oneself, this also ensures you get a fair price and materials to specification, but it is a lot of effort.

[KittenKong]

Where there are substantial materials involved it is quite common to ask for an advance, unfair to ask the contractor to spend his own money on it, as he may well end up losing out too.

The difference between me and a contractor is that the contractor knows where I live, and that I own my condo, both of which make me unlikely to do a moonlight flit without paying him. He, on the other hand, probably has no address and no name and could vanish in seconds with my money as many do.
Who is the easier to trust of the two? And who is the easier to start legal proceedings against?

[Road Warrior]

kittenkong is correct .! this is Thailand

[mogandave]

In Thailand ! This happens all over the world not just Thailand !!!!

Not at all. Many other countries have laws to protect consumers.


What county do consumers never get ripped off on home repairs?

[mogandave]

I managed a manufacturing facility in Thailand for 17 years (retired a month ago) and used any number of contractors over the years, and except for the smallest jobs, a payment has always been made with conformation of the order.

That said, I don’t (as others have implied) find people off the street and advance them money, The contractors I have dealt with all had addresses, paid taxes and had references.

While I have not been 100% happy with all the work I’ve had done, I’ve never been cheated. Actually, I find it a lot easier working with some Thai contractors that some US contractors, particularly if I want to change something.

Also, most Thai contractors will complete the engineering and provide a detailed quote, without a purchase order, something would be difficult to get in the US.

I understand that in Europe, all the contractors only care about satisfying the consumer and don’t care about margin, but that is not the case in the US.

[Fruit Trader]

Amazing how some expats manage to go for years without getting into these scrapes while others get hit at every other turn. It must be down to luck or maybe some have more common sense than others.

 

Anyway, its not May 6 yet and workers might be fixing a shiny new gate as we speak. The OP is quite good at vague hit and run topics.

[Cake Monster]

I you signed a contractual agreement with the guy for the supply and installation of the gate, you with have Zero recourse of action by using the Police.

 

As you signed a contract, that is considered under Thai law to be a Civil matter for the Courts, and not a criminal one, even if the guy has not delivered the goods.

[KittenKong]

What county do consumers never get ripped off on home repairs?

I didnt say that it never happens elsewhere, just that elsewhere the consumer is better protected and so it happens much less. The same applies to dangerous driving: it happens everywhere but a lot more often here, and offenders here are rarely punished as they should be.

[timkeen08]

After seeing an add on project for a family member during and after construction, we contacted the same local man and wife team to do a project for us.  My wife handled all money, materials, and phone conversations with no issues.

 

We have an account at our local supplier and delivery is free so there is no issue with materials.  We also authorized him to pick up some additional hardware that was needed during the project when we were not at home with a simple phone call.

 

1st payment,  25% of quoted labor as a binder after discussing our need, a quick drawing, and a list of materials.

 

2nd payment of 30% when roof was complete.   Final payment during the wall construction.  They asked for it before they were finished.  Understandable since it required time for cement and plastering to dry between stages plus we were gone here and there some days.

 

Some very fine and honest contractors (or foreman as they are called in our part of Thailand).  They have a reputation to keep and tryed very hard to accommodate and put up with farang.  They guarantee their work and are even coming back to take care of something my wife told them she didn't need, free.  No leaks during these last downpours.

 

Also, while we were waiting for the cement to dry I showed him a small project of mine.  I had calculated weight distribution, design, and had the whole thing on my laptop in 2D and 3D.

 

He quickly confirmed my calculations, made his own drawing, and looked at the left over steel.  He came up with a simpler and better use of materials while he layed out the steel.  After we began to disassemble the 6 pieces to our very heavy king size bed he began to understand what they and my wife originally thought was farang overkill.  No spot welds.  I only wanted to raise it off the floor 13cm.

 

Some very good people out there.  You just have to pay their price.  They got a bonus for the bed frame.  I couldn't give them just the 400 baht he asked for after 2 days work, dissassembly, and reassembly.  Some pieces even took 4 of us to carry out and back in the room.  The frame had to be welded in room.  They got it finished and reassembled before noon the next day.  We all just stood around and looked at it in amazement.   They do take pride in their work.  They toasted with Leo and we toasted with cold water.

 

Definately will call them for the next project.

 

 

 

[mogandave]

What county do consumers never get ripped off on home repairs?

I didnt say that it never happens elsewhere, just that elsewhere the consumer is better protected and so it happens much less. The same applies to dangerous driving: it happens everywhere but a lot more often here, and offenders here are rarely punished as they should be.


Someone said it happens everywhere, you said not at all.

[Tofer]

19 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

Then you guessed wrong. I renovated two large farmhouses in Europe over a period of 30+ years for a total cost of around 600,000 Euros (that's around 22MB), and never paid anything up front to anyone. Only instalment payments in arrears as work progressed.
Here I've had various smaller jobs done and have not paid in advance either.

I've never met anyone in Thailand whom I would trust with any money paid in advance, so I simply wont do it. "Fly-by-nights" is the only expression that comes to mind, and it applies equally to all nationalities here and all levels of society. Never have I seen a country where people change employment or address so often, or where businesses open and close so fast.

 

I find this statement quite unbelievable, unless you bought all the materials yourself and only paid for labour. This would mean you never had anything manufactured to order by anyone else using their materials, otherwise you've dealt with very unprofessional businesses that take unnecessary risks.

 

Are you seriously trying to tell us that, for instance, you had kitchens made for your farmhouses without having to place a deposit?

 

If you were building from scratch you would have to pay up front for preliminaries without a sod being disturbed in the surface of your land towards your actually project progress.

[trainman34014]

On 30/4/2561 at 4:38 PM, rossd said:

Whenever we have work done on our bungalow we purchase the material and pay the subbie for labour only. You should never allow your subbie to provide the materials, you will only get screwed.

Exactly what i do too.  Got stung once for about 5,000 only but said never again.   I ask the Builders for a list of materials and buy them myself and if they don't like it i find another Builder.  The other thing is never pay a day rate for workers; i had a Pal who did that for an extension and they made the job last three times as long as it should have done, get a Labour price and refuse to pay more unless you think it's warranted.

[johnmell]

When we had a new kitchen fitted the contractor wanted money up front for materials.Me and the wife went with the guy to the materials supplier, paid for them, and had them delivered to our home.Did a good job too.

[KittenKong]

Are you seriously trying to tell us that, for instance, you had kitchens made for your farmhouses without having to place a deposit?

Such things I mostly did myself with off the shelf items purchased in the normal way. I had some other specific items tailor-made by specialists (such as a surround for an open fireplace, with heat resistant glass) but never paid anything up front for them.
I was self-employed there myself for 30+ years and never asked my customers for any money up front for anything. Never had cause to.

[mogandave]

Are you seriously trying to tell us that, for instance, you had kitchens made for your farmhouses without having to place a deposit?

Such things I mostly did myself with off the shelf items purchased in the normal way. I had some other specific items tailor-made by specialists (such as a surround for an open fireplace, with heat resistant glass) but never paid anything up front for them.
I was self-employed there myself for 30+ years and never asked my customers for any money up front for anything. Never had cause to.


So did you did not have to enter into a contract with the whereby if you canceled the order you would be responsible for part or all of the cost?

[StevieAus]

On 4/30/2018 at 4:28 PM, swissbie said:

No. If you use ordinary craftmen/repairmen in TH usually you have to pay at least for the needed materials in advance (not for government agencies or big contractors, but they are much more expensive).

The alternative as we have done over the years is for you to pay the supplier yourself that way at you know the materials are delivered to your address.

Fortunately we have never had a problem involving several projects over the years but to be fair we only use contractors who are known and recommended.

[StevieAus]

On 5/1/2018 at 6:49 AM, jacko45k said:

Where there are substantial materials involved it is quite common to ask for an advance, unfair to ask the contractor to spend his own money on it, as he may well end up losing out too. If possible one can procure materials oneself, this also ensures you get a fair price and materials to specification, but it is a lot of effort.

In my opinion and experience, unless it is a very small job it is certainly worth the effort, you can ask the contractor for a detailed list of what is required and place and pay for the order yourself as stated in my earlier post at least it ensures they are delivered to your address

Of more importance is not only being able to control the cost but being able to

conrol the quality particularly with building, plumbing materials etc.

I learned many years ago that their appears to be a tendency for contractors to use the cheapest product and for the supplier to offer the same.

I suspect it’s part of the culture here the same reason that everyone asks for a discount.

[DJ54]

Please post pictures when the work is done on May 6 Thanks

[VocalNeal]

On 4/30/2018 at 2:53 PM, KittenKong said:

Never pay for anything in advance in Thailand. Pay only when you have got exactly what you want in your hands.

I disagree. I believe the sentiment is never give anyone a deposit based on verbal agreement. Or if you do it has to be small. Say you need some business cards printed. Supplier says 2000 Baht, can we have a deposit? Never give half. Why not? because they already have their profit so there is little incentive to do the work now for nothing so 500 or less would be OK. 

 

Everything has two sides. Someone is give a written quote from a company with a VAT ID number on the quote. Customer agrees verbally so company goes ahead and manufactures something expending materials and labour then the customer changes his/her mind. Supplier is now out of pocket and cannot sell the items to anyone else as they were custom. 

In the scenario above the company gives a quote. On the quote it asks for a  deposit to confirm the customers agreement and upon receipt of that "agreement" the company starts fabrication, then completes the job and issues the customer an invoice for the balance as per the original quote. 

 

KittenKong, Have you ever bought anything from say Lazada, without transferring funds first? If I buy any components from abroad I always have to pay before delivery

 

In the OP's case the 6 May deadline has not yet occurred. 

 

 

[StevieAus]

On 4/30/2018 at 11:00 PM, KittenKong said:

 

Then you guessed wrong. I renovated two large farmhouses in Europe over a period of 30+ years for a total cost of around 600,000 Euros (that's around 22MB), and never paid anything up front to anyone. Only instalment payments in arrears as work progressed.
Here I've had various smaller jobs done and have not paid in advance either.

I've never met anyone in Thailand whom I would trust with any money paid in advance, so I simply wont do it. "Fly-by-nights" is the only expression that comes to mind, and it applies equally to all nationalities here and all levels of society. Never have I seen a country where people change employment or address so often, or where businesses open and close so fast.

 

You must originate from a country that is perfect in every way which begs the question as to why you left.

Changing employment often through economic necessity is common throughout the world and often not the fault of the employee, labour is much more transient than in the past and unless you are are a government employee so is lifetime employment with one employer

I would suggest that you access the internet and research the failure rate of new businesses it is very high I saw many fail in Australia

Perhaps also if you can, have a look at some of the consumer affairs programs in Australia and the UK many “fly by nighters” alive and kicking and they are both countries with reasonable consumer protection legislation.

Finally I am not a Thai apologist and accept that not everything is perfect in this country but neither is it perfect elsewhere.

Of course there is always an alternative.

[KittenKong]

KittenKong, Have you ever bought anything from say Lazada, without transferring funds first? If I buy any components from abroad I always have to pay before delivery

I always order COD here.

[KittenKong]

You must originate from a country that is perfect in every way which begs the question as to why you left.

Not perfect, but much better than here when it comes to consumer protection, and law and order. Also the people were generally far more trustworthy, though of course you get good and bad everywhere.

Why did I leave? My house was much too large for my requirements which had changed. Selling and buying again would have been expensive. Also I wanted to stop working but was not old enough to "officially" retire, so my tax situation would have been very poor. So Thailand looked like a reasonable and easy place to spend the 10-15 years between when I stopped working and when I reach retirement age, at which point I will probably go back to Europe. Also this is a decent place to use as base for travelling.

[KittenKong]

So did you did not have to enter into a contract with the whereby if you canceled the order you would be responsible for part or all of the cost?

No. Never needed on either side.

[mogandave]

So did you did not have to enter into a contract with the whereby if you canceled the order you would be responsible for part or all of the cost?

No. Never needed on either side.


You crack me up.

[ghworker2010]

On 4/30/2018 at 3:52 PM, csabo said:

They robbed you. You are never getting it back and the police won't care. I use a contractor that I trust to work in my home and businesses and twice he subbed the job out and the subcontractor either did shit work that needed to be completely redone or they just ran off with the deposit. Both times my contractor ate the losse. My opinion is that if Thais are will to screw my Thai contractor occasionally then they would probably do it to me regularly. He gives me receipts for every purchase and is very affordable. I am well aware I found a rare gem. 

Im the OP. The update is that they tried to rob us but we got the money back. On the day they were due to do the job they didn't turn up and would not return phone calls. We found their fbook account  and a photo of their so called shop. Actually, it wasn't much of a work shop at all. More of a shack and he is cambodian. We turned up and one of his workers was there. He tried to lock the door and I sat down inside during the 'negotiations'. Its probably the only reason after 1 hour that they went to an atm and deposited to our account. Lesson has been learnt big time. Have to see their shop in the first instance and never pay in advance...

[ghworker2010]

On 5/2/2018 at 12:03 PM, DJ54 said:

Please post pictures when the work is done on May 6 Thanks

read above. it didn't happen. but we eventually got our money back

[Andrew Dwyer]

Im the OP. The update is that they tried to rob us but we got the money back. On the day they were due to do the job they didn't turn up and would not return phone calls. We found their fbook account  and a photo of their so called shop. Actually, it wasn't much of a work shop at all. More of a shack and he is cambodian. We turned up and one of his workers was there. He tried to lock the door and I sat down inside during the 'negotiations'. Its probably the only reason after 1 hour that they went to an atm and deposited to our account. Lesson has been learnt big time. Have to see their shop in the first instance and never pay in advance...

Glad to hear you got it sorted and learnt a lesson !!

I’ve had a couple of projects done ( car port extension and rear kitchen area covered ) by the supervisor and his crew who built the houses in the moobahn i live in .

I agreed a price and paid up front for materials , luckily both times it worked out okay for me, happy with the work/price and will use the guy again soon.

I think you were unlucky and despite what others have said there are decent, honest builders out there who will give you a fair price and do good work .
Now, finding them, that’s the hard part !!

[mogandave]

It was good that you were able to find the shop and compel them to refund your money.

[KittenKong]

I think you were unlucky and despite what others have said there are decent, honest builders out there who will give you a fair price and do good work .

Now, finding them, that’s the hard part !!

I dont think that anyone said that there are no good and honest builders here. The problem here is that they are not numerous and the odds are against you, as you also point out. And with that in mind it's best not to pay upfront.