Phuket teacher turned away in Penang applying for visa

[MRToMRT]

I feel sorry for the guy this happened to - I have had my own experiences in needing docs at a Thai consulate that I did not think I needed before, and it disappoints.

 

BUT considering this is ultimately to help protect kids from the worst of pervs - its a good thing.

[Kasset Tak]

My ex-coworker was denied to get a non-B visa in Vientiane already last year as he didn't have a Thai Police Clarence Certificate... he had been in Thailand for 6 days when that happened! So he had to come back, go to DSI and apply for a PCC and then 3 weeks later go back to Laos. I on the other hand even got a PCC from my home  country... at the embassy they just handed the copy back to me and didn't want to see that as I had a Thai PCC.

[gk10002000]

4 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

There is actually this great service that can move a piece of paper from one country to another, its called post.

Not so easy when one must be there in person to request and or sign forms.  Or one must send in finger print card certified by a notary public, and there are a few other constraints, such as even if one gets this stuff submitted before one leaves the US, the forms are typically only delivered to one's home address and often by certified mail that only the original requester can sign for. 

[Kieran00001]

Just now, gk10002000 said:

Not so easy when one must be there in person to request and or sign forms.  Or one must send in finger print card certified by a notary public, and there are a few other constraints, such as even if one gets this stuff submitted before one leaves the US, the forms are typically only delivered to one's home address and often by certified mail that only the original requester can sign for. 

 

I don't know about the US, but for the UK the employee does not have to sign anything nor do they have to provide fingerprints, the employer can do the request and a foreign employer can do that just the same, and then there is a separate system just for foreign government officials to request from, we have a criminal disclosure that is specifically for the likes of visa applications that they will send to your address as long as you can prove it is your address, such as with a Tabian Bann.

[StevieAus]

4 hours ago, timewilltell said:

This is a typical problem with Thailand. Laws are written without care and which are easily interpreted a number of ways. Even then additional requirements are added or subtracted by the poorly trained and often egotistical official handling your application. It is a guessing game firstly as to what the law is and secondly pot luck as to how you r application will be interpreted.

 

This same ethos runs through the justice system which is really an expensive joke as laws are interpreted wildly differently and in my case the same point of law had opposite interpretations by an appeal court. There is no certainty at all. It is a mess and in my opinion intentionally so.

That is what courts do interpret the law, happens in all Western countries and the higher courts often overturn the decisions of the lower courts.

Not unusual at all.

[Kieran00001]

2 hours ago, jerry921 said:

I think requiring a police check from the home country is fine and appropriate, I'm just calling into question the catch-22 of requiring a Thai police check to get into Thailand. Let them require that you complete the police check after they let you back in, or before working at a school, or something feasible.

 

There is no requirement to first visit Thailand, if he had of arranged his type B in his home country before entering Thailand he would not have needed a Thai police clearance, but as he was coming from Thailand he did, it makes perfect sense and most countries require police clearance for teachers from all countries they have lived in the past 5 years, he only needed one from the country he just walked out of, it's hardly unfeasible to have gotten one, it takes minutes.

[gk10002000]

4 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

I don't know about the US, but for the UK the employee does not have to sign anything nor do they have to provide fingerprints, the employer can do the request and a foreign employer can do that just the same, and then there is a separate system just for foreign government officials to request from, we have a criminal disclosure that is specifically for the likes of visa applications that they will send to your address as long as you can prove it is your address, such as with a Tabian Bann.

in the US, if one does or requests the FBI background check, a finger print must be submitted with proper notary.  Other services vary.  My local police check in Florida local cop office required me to go there in person with proper ID to request the check. 

[Jimdandy]

While they're at it I hope they add degree verification and teaching credential requirement from a real institution that provides at least 120 hours of instruction with mentoring, not from some online or on the beach fly by night company. It such a shame to see the international ranking of Thailand continue to slip while other ASEAN countries, like Vietnam continue to excel. Too many people, especially men looking for a wife or girlfriend say they are teachers and cannot even explain the origins of the three different sounds of CH sounding words in English for example. That is a basic. In some school districts in the US you must have a criminal background check with fingerprints  each time you change schools even if the schools are in the same county. Stop sniveling and get over it.

 

It is so sad to have a conversation with someone who was fired from a job and decides to 'teach' because they have no money to get home. If men and women want to teach they need to have the college degree plus the credential to do it. Thailand educational institutions are in a very bad situation and need qualified administrators and teachers at all levels up through university. Teaching is not easy and if a teacher cannot do research or does not understand basic grammar they should not be in the classroom.

 

Of course the government needs to take responsibility as well as the first step to correct this issue, which I do not think they see as a priority,

[Kieran00001]

8 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

in the US, if one does or requests the FBI background check, a finger print must be submitted with proper notary.  Other services vary.  My local police check in Florida local cop office required me to go there in person with proper ID to request the check. 

 

I just looked at the site and the FBI check can be done by post and the finger prints don't require notarizing, what you seem to have confused is that some foreign governments require the document to be apostatized, but that would be done after it was sent to you.  There is information on their site specifically for applying from abroad.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/while-abroad/criminal-record-checks.html

[Kieran00001]

11 minutes ago, Jimdandy said:

While they're at it I hope they add degree verification and teaching credential requirement from a real institution that provides at least 120 hours of instruction with mentoring, not from some online or on the beach fly by night company. It such a shame to see the international ranking of Thailand continue to slip while other ASEAN countries, like Vietnam continue to excel. Too many people, especially men looking for a wife or girlfriend say they are teachers and cannot even explain the origins of the three different sounds of CH sounding words in English for example. That is a basic. In some school districts in the US you must have a criminal background check with fingerprints  each time you change schools even if the schools are in the same county. Stop sniveling and get over it.

 

It is so sad to have a conversation with someone who was fired from a job and decides to 'teach' because they have no money to get home. If men and women want to teach they need to have the college degree plus the credential to do it. Thailand educational institutions are in a very bad situation and need qualified administrators and teachers at all levels up through university. Teaching is not easy and if a teacher cannot do research or does not understand basic grammar they should not be in the classroom.

 

Of course the government needs to take responsibility as well as the first step to correct this issue, which I do not think they see as a priority,

 

Quote

They cannot even explain origins of the three different sounds of 'ch' sounding words? 

 

I teach phonics and I am struggling to understand what you were trying to explain there.  Do you mean the three different graphemic representations of /tʃ/?  There are actually 5, so I can only assume not.  Or do you mean the three different etymological origins of the digraph 'ch', from the Latin 'ca', the French 'tsha', and the Greek 'χ'?  That is not even nearly important for foreign learners of English to know, so again I assume not.  So, please tell me, what were you trying to explain?

[cat handler]

About time, they should need a police clearance from their home country and Thailand to teach kids. Their foreign University teaching degrees should also be verified. Too many foreign losers who couldn’t get jobs in their own country are coming to Thailand and pretending to be teachers.

[Kieran00001]

1 minute ago, cat handler said:

About time, they should need a police clearance from their home country and Thailand to teach kids. Their foreign University teaching degrees should also be verified. Too many foreign losers who couldn’t get jobs in their own country are coming to Thailand and pretending to be teachers.

 

Actually there are not enough, China is swallowing them all up, make the requirement any stricter and they would be left only with old sexpats to choose from.

[simple1]

5 hours ago, BEVUP said:

Through a third party

It seems quite rediculous that the police can't email them to you, after having to prove your identity with 3 or 4 official documents

Makes it hard when you travel to & from Thai for work as they send to your home address, but you get a job on the other side of country 

Don't know about Thailand, but in Oz will not use email as Police Clearance Certificate is printed on secure paper to prevent fraud, copies must be witnessed and notified.

Edited May 18, 2018 by simple1

[Russell17au]

The majority of foreign teachers are here to teach English and the biggest failure is in the standards of teaching English because there are no standards. An American teacher will teach the American grammer and the American spelling which is incorrect while the Australian teacher will do the same and so will the UK teacher. Australian teachers use the same spelling as the UK which is the true English spelling. There needs to be one set of standards to teach English by and that should be by the original English language and spelling as is used in the UK. Even on a computer the English language that is used is the American English language with the American spelling which is not the true English language, it is a modified language and spelling and unless the true English language and spelling is set as the standard it causes confusion amongst the children because one child goes to a different school to there friend and is taught by a different teacher who teaches a different English. This is not good education.

[cat handler]

35 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Actually there are not enough, China is swallowing them all up, make the requirement any stricter and they would be left only with old sexpats to choose from.

I would suggest most are sexpats, who really would move to Thailand and teach for peanuts.

[stevenl]

19 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

The majority of foreign teachers are here to teach English and the biggest failure is in the standards of teaching English because there are no standards. An American teacher will teach the American grammer and the American spelling which is incorrect while the Australian teacher will do the same and so will the UK teacher. Australian teachers use the same spelling as the UK which is the true English spelling. There needs to be one set of standards to teach English by and that should be by the original English language and spelling as is used in the UK. Even on a computer the English language that is used is the American English language with the American spelling which is not the true English language, it is a modified language and spelling and unless the true English language and spelling is set as the standard it causes confusion amongst the children because one child goes to a different school to there friend and is taught by a different teacher who teaches a different English. This is not good education.

Not a good idea to make mistakes in a text about correct spelling.

[stevenl]

2 minutes ago, cat handler said:

I would suggest most are sexpats, who really would move to Thailand and teach for peanuts.

Then maybe it is time you had a look at the teachers at a few schools. You'll change your mind quickly.

[thedan663]

26 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

The majority of foreign teachers are here to teach English and the biggest failure is in the standards of teaching English because there are no standards. An American teacher will teach the American grammer and the American spelling which is incorrect while the Australian teacher will do the same and so will the UK teacher. Australian teachers use the same spelling as the UK which is the true English spelling. There needs to be one set of standards to teach English by and that should be by the original English language and spelling as is used in the UK. Even on a computer the English language that is used is the American English language with the American spelling which is not the true English language, it is a modified language and spelling and unless the true English language and spelling is set as the standard it causes confusion amongst the children because one child goes to a different school to there friend and is taught by a different teacher who teaches a different English. This is not good education.

Lack of standards is certainly an issue. However, many of the teachers here simply aren't real teachers an don't know how to teach. They don't understand pedagogy, classroom management, how to teach effectively, etc. It is a skill that a simple one-month TEFL/CELTA course can't teach. Qualified teachers in our home countries often have a minimum Bachelor's in Education and/or content area. Most teachers here do not.

 

However, I don't think students here are hung up on different spelling and grammar between Australia/UK and USA. The grammar is not that different, anyhow. We are in the age of global English - proper English is not so important. The issue is that many students cannot even converse with a native speaker in English, and believe me, it's not because of grammar and spelling differences in native countries. That is so far down the list of issues. It's because the teachers here don't speak English well and the native teachers don't know how to teach.

[JAG]

7 minutes ago, thedan663 said:

Lack of standards is certainly an issue. However, many of the teachers here simply aren't real teachers an don't know how to teach. They don't understand pedagogy, classroom management, how to teach effectively, etc. It is a skill that a simple one-month TEFL/CELTA course can't teach. Qualified teachers in our home countries often have a minimum Bachelor's in Education and/or content area. Most teachers here do not.

 

However, I don't think students here are hung up on different spelling and grammar between Australia/UK and USA. The grammar is not that different, anyhow. We are in the age of global English - proper English is not so important. The issue is that many students cannot even converse with a native speaker in English, and believe me, it's not because of grammar and spelling differences in native countries. That is so far down the list of issues. It's because the teachers here don't speak English well and the native teachers don't know how to teach.

Most of the teachers here are not qualified or trained (in Western academic terms) but hold a degree and a TEFL certificate. I am one. I am conscious that I am not trained in pedagogy, I think that after three years teaching I have devised an effective technique of classroom management, and I am confident, within the fairly limited field that I operate in, that I am an effective teacher. The requirements demanded by the Thai educational system, a degree, and a TEFL or CELTA certificate are probably sufficient for that limited field, supplementing the trained Thai teachers within the Thai curriculum. Where the "envelope is being stretched" is where TEFL certificate holders are being recruited to teach other subjects, science and mathematics in particular, in the various bilingual and English programmes which are proliferating. That is not what TEFL teachers are "designed to do".

 

As far as TEFL teachers speaking English to an inadequate standard, they should be identified, and the applicants weeded out at their initial interview. I suspect that youth, physical appearance, skin tone and cheapness probably feature more in the concerns of many employers.

 

TEFL is a very particular specific skill set. There is no reason why, armed with a degree, a TEFL certificate from a decent institute (and I admit these do differ widely) and some experience, one cannot teach, in conjunction with one's Thai colleagues, effectively. The ineffective ones probably pack it in fairly quickly anyway.

 

As for the often quoted "why do they do it for the money", well there are probably as many reasons as there are people teaching. The only thing which could be said with any certainty is that it is not to fund the life of a "bar hound"!

[Kieran00001]

1 hour ago, Russell17au said:

The majority of foreign teachers are here to teach English and the biggest failure is in the standards of teaching English because there are no standards. An American teacher will teach the American grammer and the American spelling which is incorrect while the Australian teacher will do the same and so will the UK teacher. Australian teachers use the same spelling as the UK which is the true English spelling. There needs to be one set of standards to teach English by and that should be by the original English language and spelling as is used in the UK. Even on a computer the English language that is used is the American English language with the American spelling which is not the true English language, it is a modified language and spelling and unless the true English language and spelling is set as the standard it causes confusion amongst the children because one child goes to a different school to there friend and is taught by a different teacher who teaches a different English. This is not good education.

 

Who employs foreign teachers to teach grammar and spelling?  They are brought in to teach phonics and provide some basic conversational practice, the difference in spellings between American Standard English and British Standard English are small and irrelevant to the task in hand.

[Jimdandy]

2 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

 

I teach phonics and I am struggling to understand what you were trying to explain there.  Do you mean the three different graphemic representations of /tʃ/?  There are actually 5, so I can only assume not.  Or do you mean the three different etymological origins of the digraph 'ch', from the Latin 'ca', the French 'tsha', and the Greek 'χ'?  That is not even nearly important for foreign learners of English to know, so again I assume not.  So, please tell me, what were you trying to explain?

Ch - Champagne (French Origin) Ch - Chair (Greek Origin) Ch - Chemistry- Note the differences. Chemistry sounds like a K- All ch words (blended consonants)

[Jimdandy]

How trite, and wrong-sir. Try teaching a second half of a grammar class when the first half was taught by a teacher from Scotland. Yes, Scotland. Did you know that there are excellent teachers from Wales and Scotland that use the exact same Subject, Verb and object sentence structure? Or maybe they have their own, huh? Sounds like a little America bashing if you ask me. The issue here is non visa compliance, my point was I hope the government expands the compliance criteria to include degree verification. I can see from your statements that you would be out of a job 

[Jimdandy]

1 minute ago, Jimdandy said:

How trite, and wrong-sir. Try teaching a second half of a grammar class when the first half was taught by a teacher from Scotland. Yes, Scotland. Did you know that there are excellent teachers from Wales and Scotland that use the exact same Subject, Verb and object sentence structure? Or maybe they have their own, huh? Sounds like a little America bashing if you ask me. The issue here is non visa compliance, my point was I hope the government expands the compliance criteria to include degree verification. I can see from your statements that you would be out of a job 

As far as spelling goes, if a Ss has a baseline in one form you follow that form and advise them of the differences when and if necessary. Canadians do not spell the same was as Americans and I guarantee you that when students who have studied in both countries are taught it is crystal clear that you do not mark them incorrect if they spell Counsellor or Counselor, or say lift or elevator. Your job as a teacher is to help them be consistent with which ever form they use; that is of course if you can pass a background check...

[Jimdandy]

56 minutes ago, JAG said:

I suspect that youth, physical appearance, skin tone and cheapness probably feature more in the concerns of many employers.

My hat is off to you sir. That is exactly the situation worldwide. Sadly enough some of them are not subjected to a background check because they 'look' right or even worse may be in bed with someone who pulls strings.

[Russell17au]

In the village where I live there are a group of young boys who go to different high schools and being a farang living in the village they like to practice their English skills on me but it always ends in an argument/fight between the boys because I put it down to the different nationality of the teachers who are teaching them what they learnt in their own countries when they went to school instead of teaching one standard.

[brewsterbudgen]

The requirements to be a TEFL teacher are the same in Thailand as they are in most western countries.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Kieran00001]

21 minutes ago, Jimdandy said:

Ch - Champagne (French Origin) Ch - Chair (Greek Origin) Ch - Chemistry- Note the differences. Chemistry sounds like a K- All ch words (blended consonants)

 

'C' and 'h' blended do not make 'ch', which is a consonant digraph rather that a blend, but that is not very important, I just wanted to know what we were talking about as the explanation was far from clear.

 

So, are we talking about the three sounds that can be made with the 'ch' digraph?  If so, why was it referred to as the "origin", pretty confusing! 

 

Perhaps the origin is what the English teacher should know, perhaps they should know that the words using 'ch' to make /ʃ/, like machine, were borrowed from French later than those which use the 'ch' to make /tʃ/, like chop, and that those that use 'ch' to make /k/, like chemistry, are from Greek, but personally I don't think this is important to ESL teachers at all.  The example you gave, chair, is a poor one as in Greek it had the /k/ sound and it wasn't until it was borrowed by the French that the /tʃ/ sound was added and this was then borrowed by into English.

[Kieran00001]

10 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

In the village where I live there are a group of young boys who go to different high schools and being a farang living in the village they like to practice their English skills on me but it always ends in an argument/fight between the boys because I put it down to the different nationality of the teachers who are teaching them what they learnt in their own countries when they went to school instead of teaching one standard.

 

Quote

it always ends in an argument/fight between the boys because I put it down to the different nationality of the teachers who are teaching them

 

More likely they are arguing because they all got taught something different to the 'English' that they are hearing you produce, I should leave it to the teachers, your English is atrocious.

[stud858]

In the past, When I tried, was told over phone no need for police check,  when I arrived was told they now need it.  Got denied.  got police report. Went to Bangkok to try for visa.  They didn't want police report and I got visa. . 

You gotta throw cognition out the window while in Thailand.  Anything goes. 

[Jimdandy]

1 minute ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

'C' and 'h' blended do not make 'ch', which is a consonant digraph rather that a blend, but that is not very important, I just wanted to know what we were talking about as the explanation was far from clear.

 

So, are we talking about the three sounds that can be made with the 'ch' digraph?  If so, why was it referred to as the "origin", pretty confusing! 

 

Perhaps the origin is what the English teacher should know, perhaps they should know that the words using 'ch' to make /ʃ/, like machine, were borrowed from French later than those which use the 'ch' to make /tʃ/, like chop, and that those that use 'ch' to make /k/, like chemistry, are from Greek, but personally I don't think this is important to ESL teachers at all.  The example you gave, chair, is a poor one as in Greek it had the /k/ sound and it wasn't until it was borrowed by the French that the /tʃ/ sound was added and this was then borrowed by into English.

 

1 minute ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

'C' and 'h' blended do not make 'ch', which is a consonant digraph rather that a blend, but that is not very important, I just wanted to know what we were talking about as the explanation was far from clear.

 

So, are we talking about the three sounds that can be made with the 'ch' digraph?  If so, why was it referred to as the "origin", pretty confusing! 

 

Perhaps the origin is what the English teacher should know, perhaps they should know that the words using 'ch' to make /ʃ/, like machine, were borrowed from French later than those which use the 'ch' to make /tʃ/, like chop, and that those that use 'ch' to make /k/, like chemistry, are from Greek, but personally I don't think this is important to ESL teachers at all.  The example you gave, chair, is a poor one as in Greek it had the /k/ sound and it wasn't until it was borrowed by the French that the /tʃ/ sound was added and this was then borrowed by into English.

You would lose every student in your class. Try reading a Pearson-Longman or Cambridge University Press ESL/grammar book. The issue here is visa non compliance not a discourse on you technical skills. Try telling a student whose first language is French to pronounce chemistry and why it sounds they way it does or doesn't.