Pursuing the Digital Nomad Lifestyle

[ev1lchris]

Hi everyone!

 

I'm trying to get into remote work.  Right now I'm enrolled in an Associates Degree program in Information technology.  We learn things like programming, Linux, and soon networking and databases.

 

Right now it seems like I'm doing best at the programming aspect.  We had a Programming Logic course and one on Visual C#.  I aced both of them and enjoyed the work very much.  I'm going to teach myself Python during the summer.

 

What are some things I should keep in mind regarding remote work?  Is it hard to find an employer or clients that will let you work in a different time zone?  It seems like remote work is the future because employers don't have to spend money on offices and what not.

 

Also, if not programming then what are other pathways to the same goal?  MySQL databases?  Network Administration?

 

My optimal situation is where I have a handful of really good clients and I just work for them remotely while traveling the globe.

 

How many people here are Digital Nomads?  What path have you taken?

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, ev1lchris said:

 

Also, if not programming then what are other pathways to the same goal?  MySQL databases?  Network Administration?

System management is a good one. It has the added benefit of being able to push coders not to overuse the resources too much.

 

[theguyfromanotherforum]

2 hours ago, ev1lchris said:

My optimal situation is where I have a handful of really good clients and I just work for them remotely while traveling the globe.

 

yes. #meetoo

 

However, the reality is quite different.

 

I'd venture to guess most digital nomads are living of their parents allowance while getting paid $100-$200 a moth with their  youtube and blogging experiments.

 

There's one very young guy in Hua Hin... I think he is a video game tester and makes well over 100,000k ($US) a year, however, this is a job he brought from United States.... not something he found while dicking around Thailand.

 

I have also set up my business in Canada and brought it over. I did it for a few years while still paying tax back home and stopped....as there are "trust" issues once you cross over to a third world country. I'm not saying what I did.... it's with computers but it's not programming.

 

Anyhoo.... good luck. Like with everything, if you suck at work you won't succeed. 90% of people suck at their work.

 

 

 

 

[rwdrwdrwd]

Get 5 years solid experience on site in an in demand programming language (JavaScript, Go, Python), and do well at it, and you should be able to land a full time remote gig (structured as a long term contract) around 80 - 120k USD relatively easily. weworkremotely.com, remoteok and stackoverflow are good sources. To get US pay you'll probably have to have US work hour crossover though (4 hours usually enough, but most the work is in PST so that would be 11pm - 3am to catch their morning, or 3am - 7am to catch their afternoon). Slightly less pay (around 60 - 100k USD) can be obtained via UK, EU and AUS/NZ clients. Once you've put a few years in remotely, and proven that you're adept at it, you can negotiate higher rates. I know *highly* experienced (20 years) programmers on 240k US remote.

You need to get to upper mid-level / early senior at least though, and have experience with working with other developers and stakeholders and modern development process (continuous integration, source control, test driven development and the agile process) before you attempt to get into remote work - at least at anything like decent pay. Being remote makes things harder so you need to have solid experience of what would normally occur when co-located so that you can actively ensure you're putting in extra effort to make sure you're being visible and covering all the bases you would be when there in person.

There are remote "devops" roles out there, basically managing architecture across cloud providers, making developers lives easier, and monitoring system performance across all services so the end user has a good experience, but these require a very broad range of refined skills (including everything you mentioned) and are less frequently available than pure programming roles - they pay about the same too.

There are a few "100%" distributed teams, that are a good entry since *everybody* is remote, some examples include Automattic, Zapier and Buffer. These may employ slightly less experienced programmers so they are worth researching - they won't hire you out of college though, and they don't tend to pay as much - still good money though.

Don't go the odesk route, it pays peanuts. Organisations like toptal pay more, but less than going direct to clients.

If you enjoy programming, and are adept at it, you're doing better than 95% of the people that try to do it, so keep going.

[ev1lchris]

16 hours ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

 

yes. #meetoo

 

However, the reality is quite different.

 

I'd venture to guess most digital nomads are living of their parents allowance while getting paid $100-$200 a moth with their  youtube and blogging experiments.

 

There's one very young guy in Hua Hin... I think he is a video game tester and makes well over 100,000k ($US) a year, however, this is a job he brought from United States.... not something he found while dicking around Thailand.

 

I have also set up my business in Canada and brought it over. I did it for a few years while still paying tax back home and stopped....as there are "trust" issues once you cross over to a third world country. I'm not saying what I did.... it's with computers but it's not programming.

 

Anyhoo.... good luck. Like with everything, if you suck at work you won't succeed. 90% of people suck at their work.

6

I'm not blogging, doing SEO, or running some online business.

 

I'm learning skills that people can use to work remotely like programming and system administration.

16 hours ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

 

 

 

 

 

[ev1lchris]

14 hours ago, rwdrwdrwd said:

Get 5 years solid experience on site in an in demand programming language (JavaScript, Go, Python), and do well at it, and you should be able to land a full time remote gig (structured as a long term contract) around 80 - 120k USD relatively easily. weworkremotely.com, remoteok and stackoverflow are good sources. To get US pay you'll probably have to have US work hour crossover though (4 hours usually enough, but most the work is in PST so that would be 11pm - 3am to catch their morning, or 3am - 7am to catch their afternoon). Slightly less pay (around 60 - 100k USD) can be obtained via UK, EU and AUS/NZ clients. Once you've put a few years in remotely, and proven that you're adept at it, you can negotiate higher rates. I know *highly* experienced (20 years) programmers on 240k US remote.

You need to get to upper mid-level / early senior at least though, and have experience with working with other developers and stakeholders and modern development process (continuous integration, source control, test driven development and the agile process) before you attempt to get into remote work - at least at anything like decent pay. Being remote makes things harder so you need to have solid experience of what would normally occur when co-located so that you can actively ensure you're putting in extra effort to make sure you're being visible and covering all the bases you would be when there in person.

There are remote "devops" roles out there, basically managing architecture across cloud providers, making developers lives easier, and monitoring system performance across all services so the end user has a good experience, but these require a very broad range of refined skills (including everything you mentioned) and are less frequently available than pure programming roles - they pay about the same too.

There are a few "100%" distributed teams, that are a good entry since *everybody* is remote, some examples include Automattic, Zapier and Buffer. These may employ slightly less experienced programmers so they are worth researching - they won't hire you out of college though, and they don't tend to pay as much - still good money though.

Don't go the odesk route, it pays peanuts. Organisations like toptal pay more, but less than going direct to clients.

If you enjoy programming, and are adept at it, you're doing better than 95% of the people that try to do it, so keep going.

Are you speaking from experience?

[rwdrwdrwd]

2 hours ago, ev1lchris said:

Are you speaking from experience?

Yes, I've worked remotely as a software engineer in the past, for around 9 years from a few continents.

[ev1lchris]

21 hours ago, rwdrwdrwd said:

Yes, I've worked remotely as a software engineer in the past, for around 9 years from a few continents.

Did you put in five years on-site?

 

I really want to do remote work ASAP because I really hate living in the US.  As an alternative I have considered applying for positions that are based in Thailand or the general area.

[rwdrwdrwd]

18 minutes ago, ev1lchris said:

Did you put in five years on-site?

 

I really want to do remote work ASAP because I really hate living in the US.  As an alternative I have considered applying for positions that are based in Thailand or the general area.

10 years on-site in total, but times have changed now and it's easier to get into - when I first decided to work remotely (2004) it was very uncommon. Key to it for me was going back home and putting in a few years as a consultant, two of which were for a very well known US tech co in London - from there I pretty much walked every interview I had (remote or not)

 

If you really don't want to put the time in on-site, it's doable but lots harder.. finding a company that is fully distributed might be the best move, but they will still want to see a good portfolio (could be personal stuff) and you'll start on less money.

 

Personally I think putting in the time on-site to gain contracts and get familiar with modern dev workflows in the context of a real development team is invaluable.

[ev1lchris]

I'll definitely keep what you said in mind.  I will weigh the options of doing a couple years on-site.  Perhaps in an exciting city like New Orleans or Austin.  If they let me have a few weeks in Thailand during the year that would help out a lot too.

[Davedub]

There's some really good advice here. The only thing I'd add is to follow your professional passion / interests. We're all at our most productive when working on the things we enjoy or at least have a strong interest in.

[Andyfez]

Being qualified for a job, and persuading customers to give you good, reliable, well paid work is a different thing.

Doing a job is the easy part. Persuading customers that you are the best person to do it is the difficult part.

I think you need to gain a few years experience before you try 'living the dream'.

 

Customers are not keen to trust work to a nomad working overseas without having total trust in them first.

You could simply not pick up the phone one day and their whole project is dead.

 

Of course not all my customers know where I am. I live between Thailand, China, Australia and other places, and I'm British.

But it took a long time to get 'The Dream' in place.

 

I think you'l find your college course are the easy bit. Working to make a living is yet to come....

Good luck.

 

 

[rwdrwdrwd]

34 minutes ago, ev1lchris said:

I'll definitely keep what you said in mind.  I will weigh the options of doing a couple years on-site.  Perhaps in an exciting city like New Orleans or Austin.  If they let me have a few weeks in Thailand during the year that would help out a lot too.

Sounds good, but SFO and Seattle definitely the golden tickets - Austin however is growing fast in this regard - I know a number of people who have moved there from SFO.

[akirasan]

If you're on discord, here's a link to the digital nomad channel. Nobody is selling anything there, it's just a place for freelancers to network and ask questions and help each other out. 

The invite link for the server is http://discord.gg/CZQxpd

[Srikcir]

On 5/19/2018 at 6:43 PM, ev1lchris said:

what are other pathways to the same goal?

Cyber Security?

[English Engineer]

Yes the key is building up contacts. This means working within organisations in the beginning. It is one thing to build up skills and another foe customers to have confidence that you can deliver on their project.

[BenBen23]

I work as a digital nomad, if that's a thing. A friend of mine does as well. I guess a little know fact is that sometimes when you are entrenched as a programmer it can be hard to replace you. My boss is not thrilled about my being abroad. Neither is my friend's boss thrilled. We did not give them a choice.

 

I put in a lot of years to get to a point that I am really good at what I do. I fly back to the US often for meetings. Being the key communicator is probably one of the things that makes me indispensable. 

 

If you want some practical advice you can actually use I'll offer the following. Programming languages are less important than products. Companies invest in products, not languages. Products like SharePoint, Sitecore, Oracle, mySQL, MS-SQL, or any of a great many such products. Having expertise in a product is a good idea because you make a lot more. Any 16 year old in India can learn a programming language. Having expertise in a product puts you in the market for work in that product. Often programmers have the keys to the kingdom, so trust is important. 

 

Not all products are equal. For example I once did SharePoint and learned to dislike it because it pretty much requires me to be on-site in a corporate office. Sitecore on the other hand has allowed me to work abroad. You can get certifications in these products, which goes a long way towards getting you work!  Yes, you need to know programming languages to customize and maintain the customization of these products. Often there is more than one options. For example, sitecore can be used with any server side language. I use c# (c-sharp) which is a great language!

 

NYC would be a good bet in part because of the time difference being three hours better than California. I am from California but I work for a company in Manhattan. Do not go to New Orleans. Bad move. Pay is low, demand is low, and the corporate people down there will not understand or like the remote concept at all. 

[OneMoreFarang]

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 6:43 PM, ev1lchris said:

I'm trying to get into remote work.  Right now I'm enrolled in an Associates Degree program in Information technology.  We learn things like programming, Linux, and soon networking and databases.

 

Right now it seems like I'm doing best at the programming aspect.  We had a Programming Logic course and one on Visual C#.  I aced both of them and enjoyed the work very much.  I'm going to teach myself Python during the summer

Sounds to me like you are a total beginner with no work experience.

 

I always think it's interesting when people write "I learn(ed) this and that programming language". You can read through a book and work for a week and you can say you know the language. But if you use it every day for real work for a year then you know a lot more what it means to know a language.

 

Lot of Indian guys (and not only they) are good programmers and can communicate in English and they would probably work for a lot less than you would want to work for. So why should people chose you?

 

Personally I do computer work in Thailand for many years. I have a few regular customers and I can do 80% of my work remotely. But that was and is only possible because I work for these people since years and build trust over years. And if necessary I am in their office within hours.

 

And last but not least you have to write invoices to your customers. Maybe you can do this offshore but if you do it in Thailand then you need a registered company, work permit, etc.

 

It's all possible, but not that easy - especially for a beginner.

[bendejo]

OP: :  You're getting some good advice in here.

You'll need what musicians call chops (or is that word outdated?), it means experience, accomplishment, proof of ability.  You'll need a resume, meaning something to put on it.  Even if it's just a year or two, something you can point to that shows you're reliable, can deliver (and on schedule), and of course have the know-how.  Be prepared for a shock or two on that first job -- you may have been a wiz of a coder on school projects, but on your first job, and as the 'new guy' they're likely to start you at something like code maintenance.  Once you get a taste of it you'll understand what I'm saying.

One way to build up cred is come up with a product and put it out there, these days it's all about smartphone apps but use your imagination.  Even if it isn't successful commercially, you can show it as a testament to your skill.  For inspiration and entertainment check out https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1942884/

 

Some downside would involve company politics.  E.g. somebody messes up and dumps the blame on you, and you're not there to defend yourself.  No end of variations on this sort of thing.  Also you'll especially need to produce to show you aren't goofing off, whereas if you were showing up at the office you probably wouldn't need to justify your time to such a degree (depends on how things are done at that particular company) because they know you are there and attending meetings etc.

 

Once ran into a guy on a mini-bus from Bkk to Pattaya, U.S. guy and somewhat of a blowhard.  He said he wrote software for instrumentation or something like that, but didn't strike me as a "tech type."  He was going on about how he can do his work while sitting on the beach, drinking beer with his girlfriend of the day, etc.   I didn't buy his blather, but on the off chance he really did do this work I sure as hell would not use his software.

 

 

 

[wolf81]

I'm (hopefully) starting to do remote work from Thailand soon. Just last week I got into the freelance work platform of Codementor called "Codementor X". It's a bit of a hassle to get into, but that's probably a good thing. You'd have to do an introduction interview (test of your personality and English-speaking ability) , algorithm test, write article or do test project and then finally a tech interview. TopTal has kind of the same process and I might try to get onboard there as well. I expect to have much less competition from people of 3rd world countries on these platforms and also better (higher paying, more stable) clients compared to the developers on oDesk.

 

I'm hoping to earn at least 40 USD / hour when starting out - this is about half the money I earn per hour compared to work in The Netherlands. I should note I have quite a bit of experience, so I hope it will help me get up to speed on this platform and if it does, I am sure to raise my hourly rate.

 

As other's have said, oDesk is probably a bad idea. But if you're still an unexperienced student that doesn't need too much money, it might be ok to get started. I've met a Russian in Pattaya who started working on oDesk for like 7 USD / hour and now he's above 20 USD / hour. Not great, but for his lifestyle good enough.

 

In order to avoid paying some taxes I've setup a company in The Seychelles. At the same time I want to get a work permit, so I am trying to route some of my earnings through IGLU. Earnings of (e.g.) Codementor will be sent to the bank account of my Seychelles company. Part of these earnings will then be sent to IGLU who will take a 30% cut from the proceeds. The remaining 70% is then sent to my bank account in Thailand.

 

IGLU will grant me a work permit, pay my Thai taxes and will allow me to make use of one of their offices in Thailand. Having a work permit for 3 years might enable me to apply for residency. I would like to get permanent residency in Thailand eventually, so I don't have to deal as much with immigration / visa's / etc… I have a girlfriend and daughter here and eventually I would like to retire here and have an easy and worry-free life. Not dealing with immigration (as much) as a key ingredient for me to make this possible. 

 

If you're not interested in a work permit, you could consider the Thai Elite visa or an Education visa. They seem to be good visas for long stay. Or you could work for a Thai company in Bangkok. I once visited a company there and they would allow me to work there for around 2.000 USD - 2.500 USD a month. For Thai standards very good pay. Though neither me nor my GF would enjoy living in Bangkok and remote work will probably earn me a lot more. 

[rwdrwdrwd]

@wolf81 is a very sensible individual on the right track, especially with the Seychelles / IGLU approach ? - you don't mention what you're doing with the portion that does not go to IGLU, but sending it as dividends to a personal bank account in Singapore is a great option in my experience (since they do not tax non residents on non SG derived income). Once you hit a new tax year you are free to remit the prior year's income to Thailand tax free.

On the corporate side I went with a Hong Kong business setup and whilst it was free of any corp tax since no clients were in HK, I regretted it due to the (relatively) onerous yearly audited accounts. Were I to do it again, Seychelles  or BVI would be my choice - historically the downside of those jurisdictions has been a lack of access to decent banking services - and especially an inability to use Stripe or PayPal, but this new service https://business.neat.hk/ looks very interesting, since you could have an entity registered anywhere and have HK banking with Stripe and PayPal (easily).

[balo]

I've been working as a freelancer since 2011 , doing remote work to my clients back home in Europe.  But I never left my home country completely , even if most of my life is in Thailand. So all the money I earn are paid into my bank account in EU .   I pay my taxes in my home country .

It's important to not involve Thailand in any way unless you intend to run a business from here. 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

[Sapporillo]

13 hours ago, BenBen23 said:

If you want some practical advice you can actually use I'll offer the following. Programming languages are less important than products. Companies invest in products, not languages. Products like SharePoint, Sitecore, Oracle, mySQL, MS-SQL, or any of a great many such products. Having expertise in a product is a good idea because you make a lot more. 

That's very good advice. Product-specific certifications are important if you're an "outsider", they can be quite expensive though (thousands of US$).

[rwdrwdrwd]

5 hours ago, Sapporillo said:

That's very good advice. Product-specific certifications are important if you're an "outsider", they can be quite expensive though (thousands of US$).

 

All I can say is I've never, not once, applied for any certification in a product.. I actually disagree with the product > language approach, I think the former come and go more frequently and they are not immune to (cheap) outsourcing either. I'm sure there are some products that lead to a pay bump and have regular demand, but I haven't found not specialising in one a hindrance, personally.

 

I have had pay bumps from specialising in a language "framework", but that's slightly different I think.

 

Checking out live listings for remote roles on weworkremotely.com and remoteok.io is a good way to see a what is currently in demand.

[OneMoreFarang]

I guess there are at least three different scenarios for remote work:

a) Working with a team of software developers

b) Working alone for one or a few clients

c) Developing your own software and sell it

 

Personally I am not familiar with a). I do mostly b) and a little of c).

For b) I talk to managers who often don't know much about computers. They want to get things done and I can't remember if anybody ever asked me about any certificate. I don't think it ever happened.

For c) most users want to buy a working product and that's it.

 

I guess for a) the situation is different but I can't comment on that.

[ev1lchris]

Ever since I've read the replies I've been giving this some thought.  I would really love to live in Thailand ASAP.

 

So...  I know there are Western companies that need programmers and others out there. Years ago I "interviewed" with one and my friends have interviewed as well.  I've been thinking that maybe I can spend my "on-site" years in Thailand, and if I progress beyond that for remote work I either stay or leave.

 

It shouldn't be too bad.  It's seems like BKK is quite the tech hub as well as Chiang Mai.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, ev1lchris said:

Ever since I've read the replies I've been giving this some thought.  I would really love to live in Thailand ASAP.

 

So...  I know there are Western companies that need programmers and others out there. Years ago I "interviewed" with one and my friends have interviewed as well.  I've been thinking that maybe I can spend my "on-site" years in Thailand, and if I progress beyond that for remote work I either stay or leave.

 

It shouldn't be too bad.  It's seems like BKK is quite the tech hub as well as Chiang Mai.

I guess you should be able to get a job in Bangkok, but it's not too easy.

 

Because you need a work permit and for that you need at least 55,000B salary per month (I think that is the current number). And the company needs x amount registered capital, x Thai employees and a reason to employ a foreign specialist. The company also has to make money and pay tax.

So if a company should employ you and go through all that hassle (it is hassle) then you have to be considerably better than a Thai person in that salary range.

All possible, but not easy.

 

Likely some company will suggest you work without work permit or they will promise you a work permit sometime in the future. But that is a considerable risk and I wouldn't recommend it.

 

Sorry it this sounds negative. But I think better someone tells you the likely problems up front that you know what to expect.

[rwdrwdrwd]

1 hour ago, ev1lchris said:

Ever since I've read the replies I've been giving this some thought.  I would really love to live in Thailand ASAP.

 

So...  I know there are Western companies that need programmers and others out there. Years ago I "interviewed" with one and my friends have interviewed as well.  I've been thinking that maybe I can spend my "on-site" years in Thailand, and if I progress beyond that for remote work I either stay or leave.

 

It shouldn't be too bad.  It's seems like BKK is quite the tech hub as well as Chiang Mai.

You might get "lucky", but they don't tend to be looking for junior developers (at least not non Thai ones). If you do find a role, the pay tends to max out at around 25% of western rates for the equivalent role and level. One other issue is that you miss out on the networking side in terms of making contacts in the west that are willing to pay western rates.

That all said, if you're determined to get here asap and  *can* find a role, it could work out, and the experience wouldn't be wasted should you find you do need to put some time in on-site in the US.

[balo]

What you need to do is to get a remote job BEFORE you arrive Thailand.  Then you don't have to worry about your income and can be sure you earn enough to live here.   

After a while you will get more clients and can relax . But coming here without anything and expect it will be sorted out is a bad idea.  

 

 

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

5 hours ago, balo said:

What you need to do is to get a remote job BEFORE you arrive Thailand.  Then you don't have to worry about your income and can be sure you earn enough to live here.   

After a while you will get more clients and can relax . But coming here without anything and expect it will be sorted out is a bad idea.  

I guess an important part to this is getting that job and being sure you will keep that job for a long time. I guess it would be difficult if you just got this wonderful remote job, moved to Thailand, start your new life and then get fired.

Better think about Option B before you need it!