Any Westerners long staying in Thailand - ever tax investigation?

[lkv]

3 hours ago, mokwit said:

I just don't believe there will be no revisions to Thai tax and immigration laws over the next 20 or even 10 years. IMO it may come to it that if they have a record of someone staying here for more than 180 days through 90 day reports but no tax records they may call you in to explain. They can already triangulate like this.

Just because Thailand has begun a crackdown on people staying on visa exempts (where the reason behind it is to make more money out of paid options -and nothing else), and because there has been an anti foreigner vibe which is expected from non democratic societies, some people may think Thailand is less corrupt.

 

I think it's as corrupt as it was 10 or 20 years ago (with very minor changes).

 

That particular paragraph, the fact that you can have the income earned overseas tax free, as long as you bring it in "next year", would be laughed at in other more developed places which are less corrupt.

 

That line will stay there in the law as long as rich Thais will benefit from it.

 

I bet that in 20 years there is still going to be a loophole left intentionally there for people to avoid tax.

Edited May 21, 2018 by lkv

[stevenl]

12 hours ago, Paulbuick1 said:

Those who live in Thailand for more than half the year are considered to be resident in the country for the purposes of tax. If you are resident then you are expected to pay taxes on all income that you earn worldwide. If you are not a resident and are in the country for less than 180 days each year then you are only expected to pay tax on the income that you get from within Thailand. I

Tax liabilities would depend on the agreement your home country has with Thailand.

[Wilson Smith]

16 hours ago, canda said:

Why would I need a work permit to own properties here ?

I pay an agent & accountants do any work, they keep me informed on what 's required.

You would not need a work permit to own properties. My point is if you anyone who have a rental property would be expose to tax liability as yearly income. You comment imply that the only tax would be when selling. I am saying a doubt that.  

[Aforek]

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 8:47 PM, glegolo said:

 I believe this is the case for many countries.

 

glegolo

53 countries 

 

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/766.0.html

Edited May 22, 2018 by Aforek

[Aforek]

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 8:16 AM, topt said:

tThe recent thread I referred to above - 

 

 

It was me , but after I showed to the guy different documents, he admitted that he has nothing against me

I must say that when in the tax office, I notice that people didn't seem to know the DTA agreement; now I don't ask anything anymore there 

[KittenKong]

You would not need a work permit to own properties. My point is if you anyone who have a rental property would be expose to tax liability as yearly income. You comment imply that the only tax would be when selling. I am saying a doubt that.

You are correct to doubt that.

Anyone who gets an income from property rentals here should declare it here and eventually pay tax on it here. This applies regardless of how long you stay here per year. Indeed you should file a declaration of such income here even if you never set foot in Thailand.

They may also have a liability in their home country if that country is one that taxes world-wide income.

Dual taxation treaties are designed to stop people from being taxed twice on the same income, and the way this normally works is that your liability in country A is reduced by the amount of any tax you have paid on the same income in country B, and vice versa. The agreement may also stipulate where some sources of income should be taxed initially, but that in itself does not remove any liability in the other country.

[1812]

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 9:50 AM, OJAS said:

Thus it would appear that I would only, in theory, be liable to be taxed in Thailand on my perpetually-frozen State Pension.

If you check carefully you will discover that HMRC includes your State Pension when calculating your gross income -- If your income crosses the tax threshold UK tax is paid on the total sum less the personal allowance. You can check your tax status by going to https://www.gov.uk/personal-tax-account

[stevenl]

59 minutes ago, Aforek said:

53 countries 

 

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/766.0.html

Not correct. The list you link to is about avoiding double taxations, but Glegolo made this claim " So for me being retired my pension is earned in Sweden and being taxed there of course. I believe this is the case for many countries. ", and for many of the countries in the list taxes will be paid in Thailand.

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Not correct.

I clicked the link and it shows the countries that have a DTA with Thailand. There are 61 shown on the list. You can also download the agreement for each one by click on the adobe logo.

Screenshot

[anon789561]

6 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I clicked the link and it shows the countries that have a DTA with Thailand. There are 61 shown on the list. You can also download the agreement for each one by click on the adobe logo.

Screenshot

it's pretty confusing. can you explain article 11 on the UK one? i don't get it. will send it to a friend to work out

[ubonjoe]

23 minutes ago, Happy enough said:

it's pretty confusing. can you explain article 11 on the UK one?

Which section of it. There are 8 sections in article 11.

[anon789561]

2 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Which section of it. There are 8 sections in article 11.

1 a

[topt]

1 minute ago, Happy enough said:

1 a

You know this is a copy/translation of the UK one referenced by Tanoshi in post #25?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/thailand-tax-treaties

[anon789561]

3 minutes ago, topt said:

You know this is a copy/translation of the UK one referenced by Tanoshi in post #25?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/thailand-tax-treaties

yes, and what i think it's saying is that money brought over to thailand from a uk company is taxable here. so it's double taxed?

[stevenl]

46 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I clicked the link and it shows the countries that have a DTA with Thailand. There are 61 shown on the list. You can also download the agreement for each one by click on the adobe logo.

Screenshot

The remark 'not correct' referred to this quote, " So for me being retired my pension is earned in Sweden and being taxed there of course. I believe this is the case for many countries ", specifically the pensions being taxed in Sweden part. For many countries officially taxes will have to be paid in Thailand.

[topt]

22 minutes ago, Happy enough said:

yes, and what i think it's saying is that money brought over to thailand from a uk company is taxable here. so it's double taxed?

From my reading no, especially as they are using the word "may" a lot, so it will all depend on the specific individual circumstances. EG. current tax free dividend amounts/whether you take advantage of the personal allowance or not etc.etc.............

 

But as already stated if you bring in to Thailand the following calendar year after payment why would you even be thinking of telling the Thai Revenue office? 

 

 

[anon789561]

1 minute ago, topt said:

From my reading no, especially as they are using the word "may" a lot, so it will all depend on the specific individual circumstances. EG. current tax free dividend amounts/whether you take advantage of the personal allowance or not etc.etc.............

 

But as already stated if you bring in to Thailand the following calendar year after payment why would you even be thinking of telling the Thai Revenue office? 

 

 

just doing as i am told and trying to work out if i'm being ripped off or not

[OJAS]

2 hours ago, 1812 said:

If you check carefully you will discover that HMRC includes your State Pension when calculating your gross income -- If your income crosses the tax threshold UK tax is paid on the total sum less the personal allowance. You can check your tax status by going to https://www.gov.uk/personal-tax-account

Indeed, I can vouch for what you have said about paying tax on my State Pension to HMRC in the UK, based on personal experience.

 

But, if you check carefully my posting to which you were responding, you will see that I was, in fact, referring to the possibility of paying tax on my State Pension to the RD in Thailand!

[1812]

9 hours ago, OJAS said:

Indeed, I can vouch for what you have said about paying tax on my State Pension to HMRC in the UK, based on personal experience.

 

But, if you check carefully my posting to which you were responding, you will see that I was, in fact, referring to the possibility of paying tax on my State Pension to the RD in Thailand! 

That will never happen!  If your gross income, derived from within the UK exceeds the tax threshold that is where tax will have to be paid.

[OJAS]

45 minutes ago, 1812 said:

That will never happen!  If your gross income, derived from within the UK exceeds the tax threshold that is where tax will have to be paid.

Unlikely, in practice, I quite agree (and would hope). But it would be unwise IMHO to rule out this possibility happening at some future point entirely. Even though the ends (i.e. the additional income generated for the Royal Thai Exchequer, which I have calculated as amounting to around only 9,000 THB per annum in my case) would clearly not justify the means (i.e. the administrative effort on the RD's part), what certainty is there of such a basic consideration impacting the mindset of those in charge at the RD as part of the decision-making process, this being Thailand?

Edited May 22, 2018 by OJAS

[balo]

I pay tax in my home country , but that does not stop me from living here most of the year. 

If they want to look at my Thai bank account , no problem , only private transactions from my country into Thailand. Nobody cares about that.  My income is outside of Thailand . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stevenl]

4 hours ago, balo said:

I pay tax in my home country , but that does not stop me from living here most of the year. 

If they want to look at my Thai bank account , no problem , only private transactions from my country into Thailand. Nobody cares about that.  My income is outside of Thailand . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If possible, depending on the tax treaty, you may be considerably better of by changing and stop paying taxes in your home country and have a tax liability in Thailand.

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

If possible, depending on the tax treaty, you may be considerably better of by changing and stop paying taxes in your home country and have a tax liability in Thailand.

In the UK's case such an approach would, in practice, only work in the case of those in receipt of a private sector occupational pension and/or the State Pension. And, even then, they would, I gather, still be liable to UK tax based on differences between the relevant UK & Thai tax rates and, presumably, personal allowances as well - thus rendering any switch neutral in taxation terms.  

[stevenl]

56 minutes ago, OJAS said:

In the UK's case such an approach would, in practice, only work in the case of those in receipt of a private sector occupational pension and/or the State Pension. And, even then, they would, I gather, still be liable to UK tax based on differences between the relevant UK & Thai tax rates and, presumably, personal allowances as well - thus rendering any switch neutral in taxation terms.  

That's why I said 'depending on the tax treaty'. Are you sure about the liability to UK tax based on difference in tax rates?

[abrahamzvi]

On 5/21/2018 at 6:26 PM, Paulbuick1 said:

Those who live in Thailand for more than half the year are considered to be resident in the country for the purposes of tax. If you are resident then you are expected to pay taxes on all income that you earn worldwide. If you are not a resident and are in the country for less than 180 days each year then you are only expected to pay tax on the income that you get from within Thailand. I

That's incorrect. The rule that one pays tax only on the amounts brought into Thailand applies to all non Thai residents (i.e. people spending more than 180 days in the Kingdom). People spending less than 180 in Thailand are non residents and therefore not liable for taxation  other than on income derived in Thailand and depending on the Double Taxation agreement with the country of residence.

[Just Weird]

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 3:07 AM, lkv said:

Unless they are some high profile cases...nobody will be looking into any bank account.

 

Well that depends on the transactions that go through the account!

[rak sa_ngop]

Not sure if it has been mentioned already, but the UK double taxation agreement only applies to Civil Service UK pensions and only to those  individuals holding Thai citizenship. So effectively there is no double taxation agreement for UK pensions income. This was explained to me by my UK accountant/financial advisors.

[OJAS]

3 hours ago, stevenl said:

Are you sure about the liability to UK tax based on difference in tax rates?

Basically, if you have already been fully taxed in the UK on your UK-generated income, it is possible to reclaim from HMRC subsequent duplicate tax payments to the RD in Thailand, in accordance with procedures set out in HMRC Helpsheet 304, "Non-residents - relief under double taxation agreements":-

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/non-residents-relief-under-double-taxation-agreements-hs304-self-assessment-helpsheet/hs304-non-residents-relief-under-double-taxation-agreements-2018

 

Item 2.2 specifically covers taxation rate differences.

Edited May 23, 2018 by OJAS

[OJAS]

39 minutes ago, rak sa_ngop said:

Not sure if it has been mentioned already, but the UK double taxation agreement only applies to Civil Service UK pensions and only to those  individuals holding Thai citizenship. So effectively there is no double taxation agreement for UK pensions income. This was explained to me by my UK accountant/financial advisors.

Not 100% accurate - see my posting at #36.

[topt]

1 hour ago, rak sa_ngop said:

Not sure if it has been mentioned already, but the UK double taxation agreement only applies to Civil Service UK pensions and only to those  individuals holding Thai citizenship. So effectively there is no double taxation agreement for UK pensions income. This was explained to me by my UK accountant/financial advisors.

I highlighted this earlier and then again in post #60 as there were some doubters.......

Thanks