Maintaining an identity in one's home country - Have you let your driver's license expire?

[gk10002000]

I do not live abroad (yet) but for the last 16 years I contracted all over the USA and had to every now and then get back to my home state where I do maintain my permanent residence, pay rent, have utility bills etc.  Florida and most states are now bowing to the TSA mandate and becoming gold star compliant or whatever it is called.  For Florida, when it was time for m DL renewal, I had to schedule an appointment, take time off a contract job to fly from CA to FL, bring two utility bills clearly showing my name and the address. It turned out they would only accept a recent < 30 day old utility bill!  That almost was a problem because I paid my Medical Blue Cross Insurance only every two months, and my Car insurance every 6 months!  Luckily I had brought several bills and had two that were recent enough for them. 

 

  So read the fine print of what your state requires, if you do plan to travel back for the DL.  Make sure you bring all the stuff they want, Passport, valid certified Birth certificate copy, recent utility bills or whatever.  If you don't have those, you may make a trip in vain

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

 For Florida, when it was time for m DL renewal, I had to schedule an appointment, take time off a contract job to fly from CA to FL, bring two utility bills clearly showing my name and the address. It turned out they would only accept a recent < 30 day old utility bill!  That almost was a problem because I paid my Medical Blue Cross Insurance only every two months, and my Car insurance every 6 months!  Luckily I had brought several bills and had two that were recent enough for them. 

 

 

Regarding FL, since you're talking about presenting health insurance and car insurance bills, I'm assuming they're accepting documents beyond just the utility bills you mention. Utility bill normally referring to water, gas, electric, phone, etc. -- and not usually meaning insurance bills.

 

[gk10002000]

14 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Regarding FL, since you're talking about presenting health insurance and car insurance bills, I'm assuming they're accepting documents beyond just the utility bills you mention. Utility bill normally referring to water, gas, electric, phone, etc. -- and not usually meaning insurance bills.

 

Yeah.  I would have to go to the website or check my old email to quote their exact words, but my memory tells me they accepted anything that looked like a bill that had your name and address on it.  That is why I brought my Blue Cross Bill at the time as well as my cell phone, Two credit card bills, and a few other things.  I did this in March of 2012.  DL is good until 2022.  I am in FL now.  I mention all this because some people sub rent or the utilities and other things are in the owner's or landlord's name, or maybe even a family member or friend.  So some people may not have two bills in their name for their address. 

 

    I asked them what do they do with those paper copies?  There is a lot of personal information on them.  The desk lady of course had no good answer.  Just saying if you present a credit card or phone bill, that might not be the one you want anybody to see that has the 1-800 sexline, or handpump from Sweden charges like Austin Powers had!

[JimmyJ]

On 5/29/2018 at 2:46 AM, DrPhibes said:

The root of the problem is that now to get drivers licenses in many states you must prove you are a resident.

It's become more problematic to maintain an identity in the US while expatting  due to the "Patriot Act".

 

I used to be able to use my mail drop address as the address on the license - that is no longer allowed, and now the states and most government entities have updated their data bases and can tell if one offers a "residential" address which is actually a business address.

Edited June 2, 2018 by JimmyJ

[JimmyJ]

Actress Theresa Saldana was sliced up by a stalker at her California residence but was rescued and survived.
Her stalker obtained her address thru her driver's license.

 

That inspired a stalker of actress Rebecca Schaeffer to use the same method for a home address in California, and in this case she was murdered.

 

"Following Saldana's assault and Schaeffer's murder, California laws regarding the release of personal information through the DMV were drastically changed. The Driver's Privacy Protection Act was enacted in 1994, which prevents the DMV from releasing private addresses.[21][22]"
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Schaeffer

 

Not only that. The DPPA allowed one to use a mail drop address to be printed on the license and the DMV held the actual residential address privately.

I'm quite sure the "Patriot Act" has superseded this as it's Federal Law now.
Making things much more insecure in the name of a false sense of national security.
And making things more difficult for many including expats.

Edited June 2, 2018 by JimmyJ

[BaanOz]

On 5/24/2018 at 2:28 AM, BEVUP said:

Yes good old Auss, way behind the times

Under 45 your ok & can get a 10 yr Lisc. 

Over 45 you have to do a an eye test every 5 yrs (at a motor registry ) & only get lisc. for 5yr - Now why cant these fools except a medical cert. from a Doct ( not that they would believe an out of country one anyway ), so it can be done on line.

The Lisc. shall be sent to your Home land address - You can only apply once out of state (not back to back )

No Auss institute sends overseas

 

 

Do you want the good news or the reeeally good news?

Just been for the NSW car licence renewal and the good news is it was half price (A$90) as I have had no demerit points in 5 years.

The really good news is I passed the eye test after the woman said "ohh your squinting a lot" hahaha. Middle line was a bit of a blur but must have guessed it correctly. Yay?

BTW if you have a condition on your licence "glasses" and get pulled over not wearing them it's around a A$450 fine.

Next time in 5 years, a good chance I'll need them ?

Edit: 5 years ago (and every previous) I waited a bit and got the licence on the spot. This time I got a temporary paper licence and the plastic one is sent to your home address within 5 days.

Edited June 2, 2018 by BaanOz

[BEVUP]

3 hours ago, BaanOz said:

Do you want the good news or the reeeally good news?

Just been for the NSW car licence renewal and the good news is it was half price (A$90) as I have had no demerit points in 5 years.

The really good news is I passed the eye test after the woman said "ohh your squinting a lot" hahaha. Middle line was a bit of a blur but must have guessed it correctly. Yay?

BTW if you have a condition on your licence "glasses" and get pulled over not wearing them it's around a A$450 fine.

Next time in 5 years, a good chance I'll need them ?

Edit: 5 years ago (and every previous) I waited a bit and got the licence on the spot. This time I got a temporary paper licence and the plastic one is sent to your home address within 5 days.

Agree

All the same here, just did mine in March

 

Edited June 2, 2018 by BEVUP

[mtls2005]

It is becoming more challenging to obtain/maintain a U.S.A. - State DL while living in Thailand. But this does vary by state.

 

Some states are offering a single RealID-compliant DL, while others offer both a 'standard' and RealID DL. The requirements for a RealID DL might preclude an on-line renewal, for the first one. And more states are requiring a visual test upon each renewal. And in some states, a DL might put you into the jury pool.

 

There may still be some snow-bird friendly states?

 

My state offers both a standard and a RealID option, and this transition requires an in-person visit where your "lawful presence" (passport, official birth certificate, other) is proven, your SocSec number is verified, and you need at least one official-ish document (utility bill, bank statement, etc.) with your address. 

 

I think most can find their requirements on-line easy enough via their state's license-issuing authority's website.

Edited June 5, 2018 by mtls2005

[gk10002000]

10 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

It is becoming more challenging to obtain/maintain a U.S.A. - State DL while living in Thailand. But this does vary by state.

 

Some states are offering a single RealID-compliant DL, while others offer both a 'standard' and RealID DL. The requirements for a RealID DL might preclude an on-line renewal, for the first one. And more states are requiring a visual test upon each renewal. And in some states, a DL might put you into the jury pool.

 

There may still be some snow-bird friendly states?

 

My state offers both a standard and a RealID option, and this transition requires an in-person visit where your "lawful presence" (passport, official birth certificate, other) is proven, your SocSec number is verified, and you need at least one official-ish document (utility bill, bank statement, etc.) with your address. 

 

I think most can find their requirements on-line easy enough via their state's license-issuing authority's website.

I would not mind having the option to get one or the other, but Florida has no option.  Real-ID only.  If one had a non-real ID, one is supposed to have to show like a passport to board a plane or enter any federal building.  OK.  Could do that as necessary

[JimGant]

Virginia is one of those states that, for tax purposes, won't let you abandon them easily. The below reference is for rulings by the Virginia tax commissioner regarding whether or not you've successfully abandoned Virginia for tax purposes. It provides some interesting reading (and the rulings don't seem unreasonable, in most cases):

https://www.tax.virginia.gov/laws-rules-decisions/browse?document_type=70&amp;topic=161&amp;tax_type=All

 

Occurring in most of the rulings is the boiler plate language:

Quote

 The Department has found that an individual may successfully establish a domicile outside Virginia even if he retains a Virginia driver's license. See Public Document (P.D.) 00-151 (8/18/2000). However, obtaining or renewing a Virginia driver's license is considered to be a strong indicator of intent to retain domiciliary residency in Virginia. See P.D. 02-149 (12/09/2002).

Thus, you don't have to cancel your driver's license when you abandon Virginia -- but if you renew it (or maybe just try to renew it), that shows you really haven't completely abandoned Virginia -- so look out for the tax man -- especially if you ever move back to Virginia!

 

And I love this Virginia ruling:

Quote

Further, even if the Taxpayer asserted he changed his domiciliary residence to Pennsylvania, he never established a permanent place of abode.  While he did become employed in Pennsylvania in September 2012 and filed a resident return for 2013, he resided temporarily in hotels.  An individual who intends to remain permanently or indefinitely in a state must establish a permanent place of residence.  The Department does not consider hotels to be a permanent or indefinite residence.  See P.D. 99-75 (4/19/1999).

So former Virginians, cut all connections with that state if you can -- and get a bonafide new residence somewhere. And definitely don't use a Virginia address when filing Federal tax forms -- the Feds share such address info.

 

And forget renewing that driver's license.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Occurring in most of the rulings is the boiler plate language:

Thus, you don't have to cancel your driver's license when you abandon Virginia -- but if you renew it (or maybe just try to renew it), that shows you really haven't completely abandoned Virginia -- so look out for the tax man -- especially if you ever move back to Virginia!

 

 

There's what seems like a Catch 22 element to some of this stuff when it comes to expat life.

 

U.S. wills are one example. The way I understand it, if you're living abroad, the state law that you're supposed to follow in preparing a will is the state where you last physically resided, even if that was 10-20 years ago. At the same time, I've been told I cannot /should not do a will based on my mail-based residency, if I've never established a physical presence there.  And yet, earlier in this thread, I posted a Michigan document on declaring legal domicile where one of the questions they asked was where your will would be probated.

 

Same thing with U.S. drivers licenses. At least in some states, you can continue to renew the license even as an expat, because you already had established residency there in the past. But, generally, you can't get a DL from a different state, even the state where you may intend to live in the future, if you haven't already established a physical presence there. So once again, you're kind of stuck being tied to the past, even if that has absolutely nothing to do with where you plan to be in the future.

 

The domicile rules/statutes may work OK in terms of adjudicating when someone is either remaining in one state or has legally established a new domicile in a different state. But they don't do very well for full-time expats where the only real domicile you can have while living abroad is the last place you may have lived in the U.S., even though it may have been decades ago and have nothing to do with your future plans.

 

[Tongjaw]

Friend of mine an Ozzie chap says he had no problems renewing his license? He’s lived in Thailand now 23 years, goes back to Australia or (Ozzie as he says) twice a year. No permanent address in Australia only grown up kids but he said he has no issues renewing. Not sure if he’s not being fully truethful with the authorities though. 

[poanoi]

i went to cambodia for 3 years waiting to get 50,

when i came back to thailand my thai DL had expired and i got too much pain to

get new DL

[StevieAus]

14 hours ago, Tongjaw said:

Friend of mine an Ozzie chap says he had no problems renewing his license? He’s lived in Thailand now 23 years, goes back to Australia or (Ozzie as he says) twice a year. No permanent address in Australia only grown up kids but he said he has no issues renewing. Not sure if he’s not being fully truethful with the authorities though. 

Driving licenses in Australia are issued by the State in which you live so the requirements could be different

Before I came to Thailand I had always lived in Sydney NSW

I renewed  mine a few years ago when visiting Aus my address is that of a friend so if your friend has an Aus address to use should not be a problem

Whether strictly legal not sure but they don’t seem to care too much from what I an observe.

[4MyEgo]

On 5/24/2018 at 11:55 AM, BaanOz said:

 

Over 45 it’s every 5 years for eye test. Yes 10 for photo.

 

I always get the max 5 year licence so it’s a check every time for me.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How strange that is.

 

You are correct in saying, "that they say you require an eye test every 5 years", strangest thing is that I applied from here in Thailand 2 years ago for a renewal of 5 years on my licence, I gave them my PO Box address to send it too, while still maintaining an address in Oz, i.e. mums, so I sent it off and my daughter brought it over for me a few months later when she came to Thailand as she collects my mail from the PO Box.

 

I was 55 at the time, never had an eye test, just paid the fee and put in a photo, now to think of the last time I took an eye test is frightening, as my renewals would come in and I would just go and pay, and cannot remember doing an eye test.

 

This must be a recent change ? 

 

I just looked up the renewal form that I completed (attached link) and it says you can do it once from overseas, oh well guess I will plan another trip around the time its due for renewal and get it done when in Aus in two years (60) when I go to cash in my super (happy days).

 

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/about/forms/45070563-photo-kit-nsw-licensee-temp-overseas.pdf

 

 

[BaanOz]

 
I was 55 at the time, never had an eye test, just paid the fee and put in a photo, now to think of the last time I took an eye test is frightening, as my renewals would come in and I would just go and pay, and cannot remember doing an eye test.
 
This must be a recent change ? 
 
I just looked up the renewal form that I completed (attached link) and it says you can do it once from overseas, oh well guess I will plan another trip around the time its due for renewal and get it done when in Aus in two years (60) when I go to cash in my super (happy days).
 
http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/about/forms/45070563-photo-kit-nsw-licensee-temp-overseas.pdf

Haha, yes the eye test is frightening.

Woman sitting on the other side of the counter asked me to read the bottom line (there are 3). Must have got at least one wrong. Asked to read the middle and must have guessed right :)

There is one more line on top and not sure if you read that one ok then you pass. If that is the case I think I’d be ok. There is some eye test standard and rta has it written somewhere but not sure if it’s the top line.

Anyway thanks, good to know you can apply once from Thailand :)

[mtls2005]

On 6/5/2018 at 7:48 PM, gk10002000 said:

I would not mind having the option to get one or the other, but Florida has no option.  Real-ID only.  If one had a non-real ID, one is supposed to have to show like a passport to board a plane or enter any federal building.  OK.  Could do that as necessary

 

Yes, as of some date (Oct. 1, 2020?) you'll need a RealID-compliant ID/DL, or current passport, to board a domestic flight within the U.S.

 

As I have a valid passport I plan to get a "standard" DL, which my state continues to offer, if only as it may be easier to renew on-line. That may not be the case, though, I haven't researched that aspect.

[BaanOz]

4 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

I just looked up the renewal form that I completed (attached link) and it says you can do it once from overseas, oh well guess I will plan another trip around the time its due for renewal and get it done when in Aus in two years (60) when I go to cash in my super (happy days).

 

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/about/forms/45070563-photo-kit-nsw-licensee-temp-overseas.pdf

Just had a look at this form.
I'm curious, who do you get to witness? I'm thinking best place is an Australian Embassy.

 

Quote

The witness must be from overseas and one of the following:

1. The Head, Australian Defence Staff or Commanding Officer or Officer Commanding an overseas Australian Defence Force contingent, unit, ship or establishment.

2. A person appointed or acting, in a country or place outside Australia, as the Australian: Ambassador, High Commissioner, Trade Commissioner, Commissioner, Head of Mission, Charge d'Affaires, or Consul-General, Consul, Vice-Consul, Consular Agent, or Counsellor, Secretary or Attache at an Embassy, High Commission.

BTW enjoy that super cash! :)

[4MyEgo]

12 minutes ago, BaanOz said:

Just had a look at this form.
I'm curious, who do you get to witness? I'm thinking best place is an Australian Embassy.

 

BTW enjoy that super cash! ?

I'm not sure who I got to sign mine, I think it was the wife, she sings in her language, maybe they though it was official ?

 

I don't recall seeing anything out of the ordinary saying I had to have an official sign the form.

 

As for the super cash, won't be touching that, it will be further reserves, or if I feel I want to really spoil myself, will upgrade to the Ford Everest, but the 2.6 year old Ford Ranger still drives as if its new 555

 

EDIT: I just read the application, yes it has all changed, you need the Embassy or someone on the form to witness your signature and say they have sighted the other documents, look out the Embassy charges like $70 per document witnessed, so I am told, but best call them 1st. I had some documents witnessed in the Embassy in Laos as Bangkok would prove far more expensive to travel from where I am and they charged me $55 USD per document witnessed x 2 for a different matter, the there was the re-ntry visa 1,900 baht, $30 USD to enter Laos, taxi to Embassy 300 baht round trip, and the bus over the bridge and back which I think was about 20 baht each way.

Edited June 7, 2018 by 4MyEgo

[gk10002000]

8 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

 

Yes, as of some date (Oct. 1, 2020?) you'll need a RealID-compliant ID/DL, or current passport, to board a domestic flight within the U.S.

 

As I have a valid passport I plan to get a "standard" DL, which my state continues to offer, if only as it may be easier to renew on-line. That may not be the case, though, I haven't researched that aspect.

yeah, you get the idea.  When I first renewed my FL DL before the real ID nonsense, I don't recall there being any stipulation or checks on anything when it gets mailed out.  I assume the mailing address matched the Legal address, but I can't remember.  As you said, go online and check your state