Electrical question... renovation of building...

[bbabythai]

We have moved into a building where the wiring on the ground floor is really dodgy. On the 2 upper floors its ok and relatively new. 

 

Please look at the attached photos and advise if we should be taking out all the old wiring system that exists at the moment and getting the electrician to replace it all? Will this impact the upper floors. 

 

Re the old switch points on the walls (in one of the photos) ... the wiring for that is presumably inside the existing walls? Do we get it all replaced. 

 

When we first looked at the building before signing the contracts a different electrician said that it all should come out as it was dangerous. Im sure that the way forward. Would we have to put in a brand new electrical box. Or could we use the one in the photo?

 

thanks

[metisdead]

Moved to the Electrical Forum for knowledgeable advice and answers. 

[bankruatsteve]

It's not easy to look at those photos.  I suppose there might be some salvage with the wires but otherwise I would scrap everything, including the box, and re-do it.  Are the wires going through holes in the beam feeding the upper floors?  If so, you would leave those as they are.

[Crossy]

I agree 100% with  @bankruatsteve rip the lot out, a new modern box with RCD protection (that Safe-T-Cut looks antique), ground rod and 3-pin outlets.

 

[bbabythai]

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

I agree 100% with  @bankruatsteve rip the lot out, a new modern box with RCD protection (that Safe-T-Cut looks antique), ground rod and 3-pin outlets.

 

A thai electrician came by this afternoon. He said a new box would be 35k. Its a big one with safe T cut. Is this price normal?

 

thanks

[Crossy]

8 hours ago, bbabythai said:

Its a big one with safe T cut. Is this price normal?

Sounds excessive if it's just for the box, got a spec / part ID? If it was for the re-wire as well maybe, but we would need to see what work was being proposed.

 

Do you have a 3-phase supply?

 

[bankruatsteve]

Almost nothing irks me more than a "contractor" that gives a quote after looking at the sky.  Demand a materials estimate and a diagram showing proposed power points, lighting, switches, and circuits.

[r136dg]

Also, 2nd to your last photo looks like a load bearing beam. It may need some attention & probably worth mentioning to future contractors (don't beat out & hammer-drill through any columns or beams).

[mogandave]

Somebody had a badass hammer drill with long f’n bit...

[bankruatsteve]

If yiou are still looking for a proposal/quote... in addition to what I posted previously, I advise you to also get a description of the plan for retro-fit.  IE: should be using conduit.  How will they get wires to the receptacles in the concrete walls?  Some will just staple it.  My opinion conduit better but just so you know.  FWI: the code in the states is for a receptacle at least every 2 meters of horizontal space.  For me, I add more when there will be a computer or home theater and, for sure, the kitchen.  

[mogandave]

I kind of like the wire fastened to the concrete walls using the tack-on aluminum tie-wraps.

[Fruit Trader]

16 minutes ago, mogandave said:

I kind of like the wire fastened to the concrete walls using the tack-on aluminum tie-wraps.
 

Would go well with the retro switch panel. Nice idea.

[wayned]

7 hours ago, mogandave said:

I kind of like the wire fastened to the concrete walls using the tack-on aluminum tie-wraps.
 

Instead of the tie-wrap clips, I would use the wire channels, avaiable in different sizes, with the snap on covers.  Easy to install and easy to add additional circuits in the future if needed.. I did my whole house with these and am glad that I did due to the number of additions I have made over the last 18 years.

[impulse]

On 6/1/2018 at 7:02 AM, bankruatsteve said:

Almost nothing irks me more than a "contractor" that gives a quote after looking at the sky.  Demand a materials estimate and a diagram showing proposed power points, lighting, switches, and circuits.

  

That's a lot of work for free, especially if you also demand the stuff you suggest in your later post. 

 

Maybe in the USA where they're charging full rates and the work has to be done by a licensed electrician...  That work may be considered a cost of marketing.

 

But in LOS, the customers are just as likely to take the bill of materials down to the hardware store and either do it themselves, or have their brother in law do it according to the free plans they just got.

 

And then, of course, if you got 3 quotes each with their own design work, you'd be comparing papayas with mangoes since there really hasn't been any work done to identify how many switches, how many outlets, what are the loads, where they all go, etc.  

 

I'm not disagreeing with your statement.  I'm just pointing out the difficulties with applying one set of standards to another culture.  There's a reason it's cheaper in Thailand.  And it's not just the cost of labor.

 

[bankruatsteve]

34 minutes ago, impulse said:

That's a lot of work for free, especially if you also demand the stuff you suggest in your later post. 

I'm not disagreeing with your statement.  I'm just pointing out the difficulties with applying one set of standards to another culture.  There's a reason it's cheaper in Thailand.  And it's not just the cost of labor.

 

Gotta disagree.  For someone who is experienced and knows what he's doing, an electrical plan isn't all that much work and can even be done as a sketch.  The point is, a good quote needs to be based on a plan and that's a standard that applies everywhere that wants quality work.  BTW:  I usually do pay for a plan for any serious project.

[mogandave]

On more complex jobs, I usually try to get a quick-quote, and once I’m clear on who I’m going to use I get get a full, detailed quote including drawings and a bill of material before start of work.

If I want to change something, I can change and get the quote updated before starting. Often have to go through the submittal package several times before we’re all clear.

I also make it clear that if there is something unexpected that comes up not the fault of the contractor, will not expect them to eat it.

[OmarZaid]

Wife and I are re-wiring our 30 year old house, one component at a time ... she accompanies the local contractor who came recommended to purchase all components

 

A new switch box cost 10,000 baht ,,, the rest is daily piece work, tidily done by a fella who is reliable and neat . . .

[masuk]

Is there an apprenticeship scheme in Thailand?   Where a trainee completes 5 years of on the job training/work under the supervision of a tradesman,  plus regular training and exams at Tech College? 

[bankruatsteve]

9 minutes ago, OmarZaid said:

Wife and I are re-wiring our 30 year old house, one component at a time ... she accompanies the local contractor who came recommended to purchase all components

 

A new switch box cost 10,000 baht ,,, the rest is daily piece work, tidily done by a fella who is reliable and neat . . .

Without details, I'm guessing that box is large (30 or more breaker slots?) and perhaps marked up a bit more than it would be possible to get elsewhere.  Just wanted to point out for readers looking for ideas that a single phase box for an "average" size home should be in the 3-5000 baht range.

[mogandave]

Is there an apprenticeship scheme in Thailand?   Where a trainee completes 5 years of on the job training/work under the supervision of a tradesman,  plus regular training and exams at Tech College? 

I can’t speak specifically to electricians, but there are tech schools, and students do go to work for companies as trainees for a period before they get their diploma/certificate.

We used to get our machinists and welders as trainees from the local school.

[gandalf12]

Get all that wiring out it is a potential death trap. Get a total re-wire and check the insulation after installation. Do not use fuses use CB's suitably rated and get a proper earth installed and tested. Make all your sockets three pin with the earth pin connected to earth

Edited June 2, 2018 by gandalf12

[bankruatsteve]

2 hours ago, mogandave said:

On more complex jobs, I usually try to get a quick-quote, and once I’m clear on who I’m going to use I get get a full, detailed quote including drawings and a bill of material before start of work.

If I want to change something, I can change and get the quote updated before starting. Often have to go through the submittal package several times before we’re all clear.

I also make it clear that if there is something unexpected that comes up not the fault of the contractor, will not expect them to eat it.


 

Perhaps a matter of semantics, but I would call a "quick-quote" an estimate.  And then, yeah if in the same ballpark, then proceed with details and a quote.  I've written many "RFQ" over the years and there is never too much detail that should be included.  Unless it's within a more complex project, the quote usually becomes the contract (after negotiation and additions/deletions).  OK - that may not be SOP in Thailand but still, any quote should be with enough detail, whether written or verbal, so that there is no question about what is to be done, with what quality (materials), and with approximate time frame.

Edited June 2, 2018 by bankruatsteve

[mogandave]

Perhaps a matter of semantics, but I would call a "quick-quote" an estimate.  And then, yeah if in the same ballpark, then proceed with details and a quote.  I've written many "RFQ" over the years and there is never too much detail that should be included.  Unless it's within a more complex project, the quote usually becomes the contract (after negotiation and additions/deletions).  OK - that may not be SOP in Thailand but still, any quote should be with enough detail, whether written or verbal, so that there is no question about what is to be done, with what quality (materials), and with approximate time frame.

Pretty standard with the guys I’ve worked with.

Aside from the language issues, I find working with Thai contractors pretty pleasant.

[English Engineer]

Yes you need a plan showing the required wiring and circuitry. Otherwise any quotation s meaningless. The system needs RCD and shoud be correctly earthed.

[Aupee]

Did my own electrics to the British Standard (unfortunately had to use Thai spec sockets and switches). But we have the whole system earthed and a fuse board with the earth leakage trips . 1. Trip for each shower. 1 for lights down stairs and another for upstairs have repeated this for sockets up and down stairs with a separate trip for the Kitchen sockets. A double socket in each corner of each room plus extras in the kitchen as its a heavy use area, been living in the house for 10 years without any problems If you have any doubts you can read the whole process on the net . The lot come to less than  B40,000 only problem was I had to DIY as the local Thais didn't understand   the earth safety  wire system!!!!!! in fact the guy who built the house wanned me do his house as his wife was getting shocks off the  floor kitchen when she used the washing machine- -- not earthed?? Water on the floor ????

[bankruatsteve]

12 minutes ago, Aupee said:

 I hdo his house as his wife was getting shocks off the  floor kitchen when she used the washing machine- -- not earthed?? Water on the floor ????

Most probably not properly earthed.  Just to put it out there... An RCD will NOT prevent the little shocks and tingles from un-earthed Class-1 appliances.  Those are well below the trip current.  The only solution is proper earth.

[StevieAus]

2 hours ago, masuk said:

Is there an apprenticeship scheme in Thailand?   Where a trainee completes 5 years of on the job training/work under the supervision of a tradesman,  plus regular training and exams at Tech College? 

I have a Thai brother-in-law who is a qualified electrician I understand that he completed what we would consider an apprenticeship ( for the Thai bashers I am not saying it is the same as in the West) also attended  technical school, worked for the PEA and an international company.

About a year or more ago he advised that he had to submit evidence of his training as a licensing regime had been introduced.

Not because we are related but having observed his standards I am happy with his work.

[r136dg]

That licensing will be a great leap forward; -)

[mogandave]

That licensing will be a great leap forward; -)

I would not expect licensing to make much of a difference.

[shaurene]

I did my house few years ago. I had all electrics pulled out and re-wire red it all. Made sure they had the earthing wires in. 10 years ago. Best thing I did. And I checked as they went. Thais do not know about safety with electrics. I would not bother with having 3 phase, 380 volts unless you are going to have appliances pulling a lot,of power, like large air cons. But make double shaw you have your showers heaters earthed.

Edited June 2, 2018 by shaurene
Added important information.