Another price increase for wine, it's getting silly now.

[Dumbastheycome]

18 hours ago, Susco said:

Anyone can tell me if the white version of this one is drinkable?

 

Found 5 liter box, red and white, at 950 Baht, so acceptable price if it is drinkable

 

The Red is passable , not wonderful.

The White I have never tasted but have had others tell me it is  not great.

Cardboard cask wines are produced from a centrifuged tail end juice extraction process and despite  being the same variety and year as a top end bottled vintage is never a best choice. The import product to Thailand has a further non grape content which is added for reasons other than enhancing the quality.

 

 

[xylophone]

34 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

The Red is passable , not wonderful.

The White I have never tasted but have had others tell me it is  not great.

Cardboard cask wines are produced from a centrifuged tail end juice extraction process and despite  being the same variety and year as a top end bottled vintage is never a best choice. The import product to Thailand has a further non grape content which is added for reasons other than enhancing the quality.

 

 

I was aware that this production process exists, but thought it was mainly for other fruits, rather than for grapes? And I have seen it in action for olive harvests, for example.

 

Sure if you were wanting to vinify a poor harvest, in a poor year with possibly substandard grapes, then this would be the way to go, however if the winery usually made reasonable wines, there surely wouldn't be enough grape "must" to be able to produce the thousands of litres that get boxed and sent over here/around the world?

 

Maybe it's a mixture of the 2 to be able to satisfy the market, and sure enough, fruit juice is added to these boxed/cheaper wines to be able to get round taxes etc in some countries.

 

I'm not sure what it is that gives me the headache with these wines, whether it's the addition of preservatives and other chemicals, outside of those which are normally added to wine, which do the trick, but my head certainly tells me what I have been drinking when I wake up in the morning!
 

[Grumpy one]

On 6/2/2018 at 2:10 PM, vogie said:

I bought 5 litres of Mont Clair for a tad over 1000 baht, there are nearly 7 bottles in a 5 litre box, which would work out at about 150 baht a bottle. When I look at it that way, I find it quite drinkable.

Mont Clair is classed as wine?? ???? 

[xylophone]

As a postscript to my previous post, come to think of it, I'm not sure that I have seen a year of vintage on these boxes of wine, so if that is the case it's very likely that the contents are a mixture of wine made from various years and can sometimes be used to be able to help the winemaker clear out old stock, because he/she doesn't have to declare a year of vintage.

Just another thought.

 

And to add to the previous post by "Grumpy one", because this product is not (by law) allowed to be classed/labelled purely as a wine, it should have the words "Fruit Wine" somewhere on the container, but I notice Mont Clair have stopped using that term, technically in breach of international law with regards to wine production/sale

[Dumbastheycome]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

I was aware that this production process exists, but thought it was mainly for other fruits, rather than for grapes? And I have seen it in action for olive harvests, for example.

 

Sure if you were wanting to vinify a poor harvest, in a poor year with possibly substandard grapes, then this would be the way to go, however if the winery usually made reasonable wines, there surely wouldn't be enough grape "must" to be able to produce the thousands of litres that get boxed and sent over here/around the world?

 

Maybe it's a mixture of the 2 to be able to satisfy the market, and sure enough, fruit juice is added to these boxed/cheaper wines to be able to get round taxes etc in some countries.

 

I'm not sure what it is that gives me the headache with these wines, whether it's the addition of preservatives and other chemicals, outside of those which are normally added to wine, which do the trick, but my head certainly tells me what I have been drinking when I wake up in the morning!
 

Your comments touch on a couple of things involved in a study I was involved in  many years ago.

That study was  to try  to identify the reason for a measurably higher levels of  natural  histamines in Southern Hemisphere wines. Those being accredited with the cause of the infamous Red Wine Headache.

White  wines by comparison also higher  but not to same degree.

Comparisons  were made of  soil types, climatic variances , yeast varieties,juice extraction processes used etc in the production of same varietal grape wines in the Northern and Southern hemispheres.

It is  known that the fermentation process is mostly responsible for the production of histamines but at that time at least not specifically how or from what components. It was inconclusive even when same  yeasts, same extraction, same  variety, same annual production give and take harvesting period Hemisphere discrepancy.

The only identified factor was a  variation in histamine levels elevated in secondary, tertiary extraction process.

Thinking in terms of how many Wineries produce and market consider what the differences are between such as  Reserve. Private Bin, etc etc,of what is otherwise described as Winery X's selection.

The premium wine is certainly mostly from selected fruit, blended  or  specific, traditionally  "pressed".

From thereon it  could  be  described  as   squeezed, then  squished, then centrifuged to extract the last drop. That last  extraction is usually sold off . A Winery with a good  reputation will not usually  use it. It is  bought  by side market wine producers or marketers.

The problem is that the rougher the process of extraction the more components of the grape seed ( and with red wines  the skins ) enter the  juice. It is that juice which is the  bulk of  cask wines. Same grapes as a premium wine but  not  same quality of juice. Perhaps many people who have tasted a bottled  wine that carries the same  label and description as a cask wine will notice a difference  in  budget wine. Even in  the adulterated wines sold here in Thailand. There is a slight difference in quality. Slight.

So in terms of the study the only recognized factor was the extraction process in terms of  histamines but which still did  not explain the  North and South  difference overall.

Hardys of Australia  were supportive and keen to know of our results which in itself  was intriguing given they are such a large Company with presumably  massive  resources. And  yes, in the Northern Hemisphere the last drops  are centrifuged out as well. Never let a drop  go dry  if there is a market.

Interestingly enough Australia  has produced  a  glut  amount of wine making juice for many many years. A  good percentage is  concentrated and  shipped via to a secondary market same way as  Brazil's orange juice.

However the  fires in  Australia  have impacted on  many producers. Some  jokingly suggest that a heavy  smokey  flavour will be back in  vogue a while. Not sure eucalyptus compares to French Oak. lol

 

 

 

 

[xylophone]

15 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

Your comments touch on a couple of things involved in a study I was involved in  many years ago.

That study was  to try  to identify the reason for a measurably higher levels of  natural  histamines in Southern Hemisphere wines. Those being accredited with the cause of the infamous Red Wine Headache.

White  wines by comparison also higher  but not to same degree.

Comparisons  were made of  soil types, climatic variances , yeast varieties,juice extraction processes used etc in the production of same varietal grape wines in the Northern and Southern hemispheres.

It is  known that the fermentation process is mostly responsible for the production of histamines but at that time at least not specifically how or from what components. It was inconclusive even when same  yeasts, same extraction, same  variety, same annual production give and take harvesting period Hemisphere discrepancy.

The only identified factor was a  variation in histamine levels elevated in secondary, tertiary extraction process.

Thinking in terms of how many Wineries produce and market consider what the differences are between such as  Reserve. Private Bin, etc etc,of what is otherwise described as Winery X's selection.

The premium wine is certainly mostly from selected fruit, blended  or  specific, traditionally  "pressed".

From thereon it  could  be  described  as   squeezed, then  squished, then centrifuged to extract the last drop. That last  extraction is usually sold off . A Winery with a good  reputation will not usually  use it. It is  bought  by side market wine producers or marketers.

The problem is that the rougher the process of extraction the more components of the grape seed ( and with red wines  the skins ) enter the  juice. It is that juice which is the  bulk of  cask wines. Same grapes as a premium wine but  not  same quality of juice. Perhaps many people who have tasted a bottled  wine that carries the same  label and description as a cask wine will notice a difference  in  budget wine. Even in  the adulterated wines sold here in Thailand. There is a slight difference in quality. Slight.

So in terms of the study the only recognized factor was the extraction process in terms of  histamines but which still did  not explain the  North and South  difference overall.

Hardys of Australia  were supportive and keen to know of our results which in itself  was intriguing given they are such a large Company with presumably  massive  resources. And  yes, in the Northern Hemisphere the last drops  are centrifuged out as well. Never let a drop  go dry  if there is a market.

Interestingly enough Australia  has produced  a  glut  amount of wine making juice for many many years. A  good percentage is  concentrated and  shipped via to a secondary market same way as  Brazil's orange juice.

However the  fires in  Australia  have impacted on  many producers. Some  jokingly suggest that a heavy  smokey  flavour will be back in  vogue a while. Not sure eucalyptus compares to French Oak. lol

 

 

 

 

Some great info in there, thank you, and I suppose I have been spoiled by the number of French wineries I have visited in my wine travels with a French wine merchant friend of mine, because I can't say that I've ever seen a centrifuge in the wineries I visited, but then again I was lucky enough to visit some of the finer ones or maybe just didn't notice them?

 

If the centrifuge is used to clarify the wine and extract any remaining juice to add back to the wine prior to fermentation, then that should please the winemaker no end!!

 

I suppose it could be the higher histamine content which gives me that headache (and I can assure you I have had the red wine headache from wines all around the world!!!!), however in your research, was it ever considered that the fruit juice which is added before the fermentation process of these cask wines, has already been treated with additives to prevent things like fermentation/spoilage etc, and that the re-fermentation of these somehow affects the finished product??

 

I was bought up drinking French wine and started collecting it about the age of 22, however around 1978 I discovered Australian wines and was hooked, although I continued to collect top-quality French wines and built my cellar around them.

 

For a while I would vary my drinking (red wines only) between French and Australian wines, albeit trying some other nations, but Australia went through (as did New Zealand) the "huge alcohol/heavy extraction" style of wine and that was a bit of a turnoff, so I started looking again at French wines, as well as Chilean and especially Italian wines.

 

Australia does make some lower-priced (non-fruit wine) wines which we can get here and some of them are okay for the style of Thai food and pizzas, and sometimes there is the occasional gem (and I have a particular favourite from Australia) which I discovered, and I use that as my main go-to wine, and fortunately I have a couple of distributors from whom I can buy, and some of the French and Italian wines are very worthwhile indeed.

 

To get back on track, occasionally I find that the Aussie wines are too overpowering especially those like "Two Hands" and I go and search out a nice French country red by way of a change, or a lighter Italian wine. There have been a few occasions where an Australian wine has huge tannins (extraction) and high alcohol that even after 5 or 6 years in bottle they haven't opened up and I believe in a few instances never will!

 

Before I sign off, as I said I have visited many great wineries in France, and the winemakers are fastidious and are constantly talking about how to handle wine because they don't want to "bruise it" or do anything to it which they consider will be detrimental to the end product, and I also remember Jancis Robinson writing in her book, that centrifugal extraction of wine (in France) was frowned upon because it was expensive and was a bit "brutal" in relation to the wine which was extracted.......perhaps that has changed now because of better techniques and the need to be profitable?

 

Anyway I am rambling (probably as a result of being bored, too much time on my hands, and far too much red wine) but thank you for the information and will look out for other posts of yours as wine is, and has been, a hobby for over 50 years.
 

[vogie]

3 hours ago, Grumpy one said:

Mont Clair is classed as wine?? ???? 

Being from Yorkshire I always considered the price of wine more important than the taste, however Thailand has now taken the price of wine to a level where I have no intention of putting my hand in my pocket to buy something that bares no semblance to what it is supposed to be. 

I used to like the odd bottle or two with my thai curry, but I can't thoil paying a kings ransom for something that has been fermented in the Pattaya sewers.????

[Henryford]

15 hours ago, vogie said:

Being from Yorkshire I always considered the price of wine more important than the taste, however Thailand has now taken the price of wine to a level where I have no intention of putting my hand in my pocket to buy something that bares no semblance to what it is supposed to be. 

I used to like the odd bottle or two with my thai curry, but I can't thoil paying a kings ransom for something that has been fermented in the Pattaya sewers.????

As a Yorkshireman as well i can't bring myself to pay 1000 baht (25 GBP) for a bottle of average wine but i can't give it up entirely. I buy the bottled Casa Romeo Rosso fruit wine for 990 baht for 5 litres. With a pasta/pizza meal i find it drinkable. It's either that or nothing.

[Longchop]

I refuse to pay the excessive thai tax. Don't drink wine in Thailand just wait until I'm home. €.89 cents =30 baht a bottle 

[pineapple01]

My Chum necks the stuff here , i noticed Red or White it was always near frozen. He recons it all that bad it stops the awfull taste.

[xylophone]

30 minutes ago, Henryford said:

As a Yorkshireman as well i can't bring myself to pay 1000 baht (25 GBP) for a bottle of average wine but i can't give it up entirely. I buy the bottled Casa Romeo Rosso fruit wine for 990 baht for 5 litres. With a pasta/pizza meal i find it drinkable. It's either that or nothing.

Like you, I resent paying an extortionate amount for a very average, or sub- average wine, so I look around for well priced stuff and also mispriced bargains, of which I have found quite a few.

 

My go to is an Australian wine called "Hopes End" and at my discount Ma and Pa's supermarket I can buy it for 440 baht a bottle, and believe it or not it is just as good, if not a little better, the day after opening.

 

Other wines from Chile are worth seeking out and trying, with some passing the test as far as I'm concerned, and anyway there is always the Wolf Blass range at 399 baht bottle if one wants an everyday drinker for pizza and pasta, for example.

 

Tesco has its own range and the Montepulciano d'Abruzzo at 549 baht a bottle is okay, as are some of their other wines.

 

Searching around for these bargains is very enjoyable, and especially more so when I find that one of the bottles I have selected proves to be a tasty bottle.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Like you, I resent paying an extortionate amount for a very average, or sub- average wine, so I look around for well priced stuff and also mispriced bargains, of which I have found quite a few.

 

My go to is an Australian wine called "Hopes End" and at my discount Ma and Pa's supermarket I can buy it for 440 baht a bottle, and believe it or not it is just as good, if not a little better, the day after opening.

 

Other wines from Chile are worth seeking out and trying, with some passing the test as far as I'm concerned, and anyway there is always the Wolf Blass range at 399 baht bottle if one wants an everyday drinker for pizza and pasta, for example.

 

Tesco has its own range and the Montepulciano d'Abruzzo at 549 baht a bottle is okay, as are some of their other wines.

 

Searching around for these bargains is very enjoyable, and especially more so when I find that one of the bottles I have selected proves to be a tasty bottle.

Tesco has its own range and the Montepulciano d'Abruzzo at 549 baht a bottle is okay, as are some of their other wines.

 

But 549 baht for a bottle of "ok" wine, which is around £14 in proper money still seems pricey to me, maybe I'm just a cheap charlie.????

[hotandsticky]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

Tesco has its own range and the Montepulciano d'Abruzzo at 549 baht a bottle is okay, as are some of their other wines.

 

But 549 baht for a bottle of "ok" wine, which is around £14 in proper money still seems pricey to me, maybe I'm just a cheap charlie.????

 

 

Not a Cheap Charlie - just making the same mistake as me....... comparing obscenely taxed prices in Thailand with home country value. The bottle you described would be under a Fiver in a UK supermarket; probably less in Spain.

[giddyup]

8 minutes ago, vogie said:

Tesco has its own range and the Montepulciano d'Abruzzo at 549 baht a bottle is okay, as are some of their other wines.

 

But 549 baht for a bottle of "ok" wine, which is around £14 in proper money still seems pricey to me, maybe I'm just a cheap charlie.????

Of course it's pricey, as is a bottle of Jacobs Creek that costs over 700 baht from a 7/11, which is around A$35, same thing costs A$7 in Australia, but what are you going to do, pay through the nose or not? https://www.liquorland.com.au/red-wine/jacob27s-creek-range

Edited May 14, 2020 by giddyup

[Number 6]

Maybe buying grape juice with wine added is taxed less?

 

I'll get my hat...

[xylophone]

1 minute ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

Not a Cheap Charlie - just making the same mistake as me....... comparing obscenely taxed prices in Thailand with home country value. The bottle you described would be under a Fiver in a UK supermarket; probably less in Spain.

I guess it all comes down to how much one likes one's wine, and for me it has been an almost daily staple with a main meal since I was about 22, and I'm not about to let Thai taxes deprive me of the pleasure, so as long as I can afford it, I do buy the wine here and also enjoy finding the unexpected good bottle.

 

Everyone to their own I suppose.

[giddyup]

Just now, xylophone said:

I guess it all comes down to how much one likes one's wine, and for me it has been an almost daily staple with a main meal since I was about 22, and I'm not about to let Thai taxes deprive me of the pleasure, so as long as I can afford it, I do buy the wine here and also enjoy finding the unexpected good bottle.

 

Everyone to their own I suppose.

Agreed. At my age I won't deny myself anything if I can afford it, and that includes a glass of red wine with lunch every day.

[quake]

22 hours ago, Henryford said:

As a Yorkshireman as well i can't bring myself to pay 1000 baht (25 GBP) for a bottle of average wine but i can't give it up entirely. I buy the bottled Casa Romeo Rosso fruit wine for 990 baht for 5 litres. With a pasta/pizza meal i find it drinkable. It's either that or nothing.

Alcohol content,  is the deciding factor for me, 13% and up.

No pee water allowed. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by quake

[salsajapan]

hello, what is the cheapest acceptable wine to drink now ? thanks, cheers.

[giddyup]

Just now, salsajapan said:

hello, what is the cheapest acceptable wine to drink now ? thanks, cheers.

Define acceptable.

[Guderian]

2 hours ago, salsajapan said:

hello, what is the cheapest acceptable wine to drink now ? thanks, cheers.

Mix a bottle of the red Fanta with a bottle of lao kao and pretend it's a merlot that's seen better days...

[jacko45k]

38 minutes ago, Guderian said:

Mix a bottle of the red Fanta with a bottle of lao kao and pretend it's a merlot that's seen better days...

Just for the guests?

[sirocco]

post 678, hello

 

it is not my opinion, because a wine too strong in alcohol numbs your tongue and the palate.
A wine, as an accompaniment, must be drunk with a feeling of freshness and that it envelops all your taste buds, without aggressiveness.
It is neither an appetizer nor a digestive.
Good, each one his palate, his tastes and his habits

[cyril sneer]

5 hours ago, salsajapan said:

hello, what is the cheapest acceptable wine to drink now ? thanks, cheers.

this has gone down to 579 baht, 3 litres so about 150 baht a bottle

[Susco]

17 minutes ago, cyril sneer said:

this has gone down to 579 baht, 3 litres so about 150 baht a bottle

 

 

The only thing wrong with your quote is that it are 1.5 Litre bags, reduced from 2 litre, so no price reduction at all

 

https://www.worldofwines.co.th/en/our-wines/_our-wines-products/mc-14/_product-list/mc_red_2l

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Susco

[xylophone]

31 minutes ago, cyril sneer said:

this has gone down to 579 baht, 3 litres so about 150 baht a bottle

Ok if you like drinking Fruit Wine......ie. grape juice with added fruit juice, but some folks find it ok.

[sirocco]

yes, like those who like very inexpensive cheese, but made with corn flour, powdered milk, colors, scents and very little real milk.
As they say in my country "everything that comes in makes belly"

[Denim]

20 hours ago, salsajapan said:

hello, what is the cheapest acceptable wine to drink now ? thanks, cheers.

As previously mentioned , if you can stand a typical fruit wine then this is 215 a bottle at Big C.

Ok within the context of fruit wines.

 

[Heppinger]

On 6/2/2018 at 6:01 PM, DrTuner said:

Powered by protectionism 

Protectionism or Common sense? Bet the rust belt in America would have appreciated a little protection.

[cyril sneer]

11 hours ago, Susco said:

 

 

The only thing wrong with your quote is that it are 1.5 Litre bags, reduced from 2 litre, so no price reduction at all

 

https://www.worldofwines.co.th/en/our-wines/_our-wines-products/mc-14/_product-list/mc_red_2l

 

seem's i got that very wrong

 

that's a terrible price when the bottles are 300 baht a go