Am I in breach of immigration rules if Im painting my commercial building?

[jackdd]

14 minutes ago, jvs said:

You are quoting some ones opinion and you can not believe everything

you find on the internet.

Actually he is quoting a translation of the Thai law and not an opinion, you are of course free to translate it by yourself:

“ทำงาน” หมายความว่า การทำงานโดยใช้กำลังกายหรือความรู้ด้วยประสงค์ค่าจ้างหรือประโยชน์อื่นใดหรือไม่ก็ตาม

What is your translation of this into english?

Edited June 8, 2018 by jackdd

[thaiguzzi]

Re the OP.

Ignore all the naysayers.

If it feels right, just get on with it.

Nobody in police or immigration is remotely interested what we get up to on our own properties.

I've driven tractors for 13 years on 65 rai.

I service all the family's m/c's and have done for over a decade. And if I like them, friend's m/c's of the wife from the local village as well.

Ditto our pick up trucks which never see the inside of a dealership.

I've painted the perimeter wall.

I cut the grass and the hedge in the (big) garden.

Nobody in local administration gives a flying f##k.

[FritsSikkink]

45 minutes ago, Khun Jean said:

Best management is to not hire unskilled people to do a job. There are almost no skilled people available in Thailand. The good ones are so busy and you will not even be able to hire them. So you end up with the unskilled people and lousy results.

 

There are loads of skilled workers in Thailand. I do understand that it can be quite difficult to find one from a bar stool in the middle of nowhere or if you are depending on the skills of a wife who has 3 years of primary school. 

[Peterw42]

Of course its work no matter which way you look at at, you are painting a building that doesn't belong to you, Even if it belongs to you under leasehold, you are painting a building as part of a business venture you run in the building, its not a bit of house maintenance/improvement. Its commercial premises that you are running a business in.

 

Where does this logic of "working on my commercial property" end ? I was just sweeping the floor, taking out the rubbish, rewiring, rearranging the furniture, cleaning the furniture in" my commercial property".

 

This means we can all go and rent a bar tomorrow, paint it, tile it, rewire it, maybe even add a couple of rooms, after all its just working on my commercial property.

 

As with 99% of these work related threads, its people playing with semantics trying to find a back door loop hole to work without a permit.

 

Nobody has ever been fined for washing there own car, ever. People have been fined for running a car wash business, washing 20 cars a day, using the excuse of "washing my own car".

Edited June 8, 2018 by Peterw42

[Khun Jean]

Ah yes, insults how obvious. From a Dutchman i think ('Frits') . I thought the Dutch could hold their liqueur pretty well. Thanks for the confirmation.

The closest thing to a bar stool is my drum set seat. ?

 

 

[Khun Jean]

19 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Actually he is quoting a translation of the Thai law and not an opinion, you are of course free to translate it by yourself:

“ทำงาน” หมายความว่า การทำงานโดยใช้กำลังกายหรือความรู้ด้วยประสงค์ค่าจ้างหรือประโยชน์อื่นใดหรือไม่ก็ตาม

What is your translation of this into english?

Thanks. I am the kind of person that just research stuff before posting it.

More can be found on http://www.mol.go.th/en/anonymouse/labour_law . Click on the first link and see section 5.

But hey, it is just something on internet you can not believe right. ?

Edited June 8, 2018 by Khun Jean

[melovethai]

Why go to all that effort and possibly risk injury. Labour here is inexpensive. pay someone who needs a job and share goodwill.

 

[gandalf12]

17 hours ago, Khun Jean said:

technically it is 'exerting energy' that needs a work permit. So the next time you pick your nose, make sure you have a work permit.

The definition is so broad that it catches everything. Mowing your lawn, washing your car, installing a new light bulb etc.

It is up to the officer to make that decision but technically any 'exertion of energy' is considered work that needs a work permit.

It is ridiculous and that is why it is not really enforced for someone who is painting their own house etc.

If an angry neighbor (or even worse a competitor) however wants to make problems for you then it can become a real problem.

 

I have painted many houses and walls. I get my kids and wife to help me. The work gets done faster and it is then not only you working which can be seen as real work.

 

On that basis walking should also need a work permit as you exert energy. I can see where you are going on this but there has to be a limit as my rather silly example illustrates

[Khun Jean]

Maybe it illustrates how silly the actual law is.

Basically it gives them the opportunity to fine/arrest/deport you for any reason at all.

It does not happen, but it could.

As said before i paint my rented houses, fix stuff etc. But if i was to disturb someone or when running a little business that someone thinks cost them profit then suddenly this silly law can become reality.

 

[Peterw42]

10 minutes ago, Khun Jean said:

Maybe it illustrates how silly the actual law is.

Basically it gives them the opportunity to fine/arrest/deport you for any reason at all.

It does not happen, but it could.

As said before i paint my rented houses, fix stuff etc. But if i was to disturb someone or when running a little business that someone thinks cost them profit then suddenly this silly law can become reality.

 

The work laws are purposely broad and encompassing because the day they are relaxed is the day someone will exploit them (as the OP is attempting to do). It will always be technically illegal to wash your own dog (but never enforced) because the day they say dog washing is legal , is the day someone will open a dog washing business.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Peterw42

[FritsSikkink]

23 minutes ago, Khun Jean said:

Ah yes, insults how obvious. From a Dutchman i think ('Frits') . I thought the Dutch could hold their liqueur pretty well. Thanks for the confirmation.

The closest thing to a bar stool is my drum set seat. ?

 

 

It wasn't an insult, you scolding the Dutch is.

[Khun Jean]

I am allowed to because i am Dutch myself.

 

[johng]

19 hours ago, ghworker2010 said:

I want to paint a commercial building that I have rented.

Watch out for old Thai guys who don't like dog poo !!!!

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, PerkinsCuthbert said:

Indeed; Thais are one of the few peoples in this world who are able to fall asleep while climbing a ladder, changing a fuse or burgling a home. Expenditure of energy, were it possible to measure at such a rate, would be in the nano-joules per millennium range.

Good enough to work for Rolls Royce though:

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/news/1480781/thai-rolls-royce-ink-10-year-deal-for-maintenance-centre#cxrecs_s

[grollies]

2 hours ago, Khun Jean said:

Here you go:

 

According to Thai labor law, the definition of work is "exerting effort" and "employing knowledge", "whether or not for wages or other benefits", and is based on the individual, not employment as in some other countries. This is typical of Thai law -- remaining vague, and leaving flexible judgement to officials, thereby eliminating legal loopholes and haggling.

 

The flexible judgement can change your 'installing a new light bulb' into renovating the house without a workpermit. The chance that it happens is very very small, but get some Thais upset (neighbor/competitor) and this law can be used to get you.

Yeah, cheers, I was just being flippant. You are right of course.

[Sheryl]

It is not immigration law that is the issue as an extension of stay based on marriage entitles you to work. It would be labor regulations which require a WP.

 

However as this was a one-off (you aren't painting ion a daily basis, nor for income) I very much doubt anyone will make an issue of it.

[grollies]

2 hours ago, Khun Jean said:

Best management is to not hire unskilled people to do a job. There are almost no skilled people available in Thailand. The good ones are so busy and you will not even be able to hire them. So you end up with the unskilled people and lousy results.

 

Not my experience but I suppose it depends where you live. My builders, roofers, welders, all farmers but good tradesmen all of them (well, most). B500/day also good value.

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

I'm sure you are going to get a load of the usual replies from the usual suspects of 'no, you would be taking a job away from a Thai and therefore need a WP'...

 

I think technically it could be considered 'work'...  However, realistically, is anyone going to report you and are the Police going to be interested in someone painting their own (rented) property? I very much doubt it. 

 

In your shoes, if I wanted to paint myself I'd just get one with it. 

Of course it would be illegal unless it's in the list of occupations a farang can do. Definitely would need a work permit as not a residence.

Only takes a passing policeman to see, and the OP is toast.

 

I see no reason for the OP to paint it himself and risk incarceration, no matter how remote the possibility, when labour is so cheap. If he can afford a business, he can afford to pay a few thousand baht to a Thai to paint the building.

[lannarebirth]

I wouldn't worry about it. Were I in your shoes, and just get on with it, and I have been and I did. The only ramifications I experienced were effusive compliments from neighboring owners, who then BTW, painted their own buildings.

Edited June 8, 2018 by lannarebirth

[thaibeachlovers]

17 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

It is not immigration law that is the issue as an extension of stay based on marriage entitles you to work. It would be labor regulations which require a WP.

 

However as this was a one-off (you aren't painting ion a daily basis, nor for income) I very much doubt anyone will make an issue of it.

An unemployed painter might make an issue of it.

The law doesn't let people off just because it's a once only crime.

The risk may be low, but when farangs are arrested for playing bridge, or jamming in a music bar, it is definitely real.

[transam]

As I didn't get a reply from the OP with my earlier question I will post my thoughts...

 

If it were painting my wife's house and I was registered there I would do what ever I wanted.

 

But if it was my wife's business where l was not a director or had a WP to work in that business l would do sod all that "eyes" could see...

Why take the risk for a few hundred baht.

[grollies]

3 hours ago, Khun Jean said:

 

 

I'm with @thaiguzzi on this as we both live in rural areas and can work without anyone bothering.

 

However, I also suspect that if I lived in a built up area I'd be a bit more cautious, especially if I'd had disagreements with neighbours, depends on individuals circumstances. As the OP alredy knows the law I'd suggest only he can make the decision, best advice here, if in doubt, hire-in painters.

[thaiguzzi]

36 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Of course it would be illegal unless it's in the list of occupations a farang can do. Definitely would need a work permit as not a residence.

Only takes a passing policeman to see, and the OP is toast.

 

I see no reason for the OP to paint it himself and risk incarceration, no matter how remote the possibility, when labour is so cheap. If he can afford a business, he can afford to pay a few thousand baht to a Thai to paint the building.

Give it a rest.

Go on, live dangerously for once in your life.

Go on, paint that wall!

Honestly, the average copper on the street does not even know about work permits, and what an expat can and cannot do.

 Perhaps Pattaya et al, but then that's not the real Thailand anyway.

[ghworker2010]

4 hours ago, cracker1 said:

You will definitely be in trouble with Immigration Police if you are caught WORKING.

You are absolutely incorrect!

 

Im the OP and raised this thread. 

 

I had to go to the immigration dept' to apply for a multi re-entry permit. I showed him the 10 yr lease and photo of our building. The officer said no problem to do it. 

 

cheers

[ghworker2010]

43 minutes ago, transam said:

As I didn't get a reply from the OP with my earlier question I will post my thoughts...

 

If it were painting my wife's house and I was registered there I would do what ever I wanted.

 

But if it was my wife's business where l was not a director or had a WP to work in that business l would do sod all that "eyes" could see...

Why take the risk for a few hundred baht.

Try 60,000 baht. 

 

Read above. I visited immigration and asked them. they said no issues at all. 

[ghworker2010]

4 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Nonsense quote, you need a work permit for voluntary work in Thailand.

Your comment is nonsense. 

 

Read above. I visited immigration and they said its ok to do the work. 

[transam]

Just now, ghworker2010 said:

Your comment is nonsense. 

 

Read above. I visited immigration and they said its ok to do the work. 

If you got that in writing with an official stamp then you are good to go....

[FritsSikkink]

3 minutes ago, ghworker2010 said:

Your comment is nonsense. 

 

Read above. I visited immigration and they said its ok to do the work. 

You need to go to the labor office, immigration is for visa's. Labor office for work related issues.

[retoohs]

You are not even allowed to paint your own house. This is work a Thai could be employed to do. If nobody complains you should be sweet. I don't know if posting it on social media is the smartest move.

[Kwasaki]

2 minutes ago, retoohs said:

You are not even allowed to paint your own house.

Where does it state that. ?