Keto and Back

[bkk6060]

On 3/7/2019 at 9:24 AM, FracturedRabbit said:

I have been keto for 18 months. Marked improvement in mental clarity and physical energy. Slowed the progression of my heart disease and stopped taking beta blockers. Never going back to a high carb diet.


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Really?

If you are doing a true keto you must have lost about 75 pounds plus, in 18 months.

Is that about right?

And that is way way conservative as when I cycle to keto 20 pounds in 30 to 40 days is pretty standard.

Edited March 29, 2019 by bkk6060

[FracturedRabbit]

1 hour ago, bkk6060 said:

Really?

If you are doing a true keto you must have lost about 75 pounds plus, in 18 months.

Is that about right?

And that is way way conservative as when I cycle to keto 20 pounds in 30 to 40 days is pretty standard.

Keto is no just for weight loss. I was not overweight when I started 1.80cm and 74 kilos, 34 inch waist. I am now 69 kilos and 31 inch waist. I am doing it to combat atherosclerosis. Other than 1 week out  of keto (when I went to Japan and had a love affair with chocolate croissants), I have been in ketosis the entire time. 

[THAIPHUKET]

interesting indeed =  atherosclerosis

 

CONGRATS !

Are chocolate croissants by any chance also good against Keto breath smell? The Lady is complaining, I'm almost about to give up. Her value is greater than losing some body mass.

 

[FracturedRabbit]

My keto breath went away, took a month of so.  I expect St. Marc's chocolate croissants in Tokyo could cure almost anything.

[THAIPHUKET]

chocolate croissants in Tokyo looks like heavy on carbs.

but most tempting

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/mNMVW83VJgSjjvgu5

[FracturedRabbit]

chocolate croissants in Tokyo looks like heavy on carbs.
but most tempting
 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mNMVW83VJgSjjvgu5

They are, kicked me out of keto immediately. Was easy to get back in once the holiday was over.


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[cooked]

11 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

Keto is no just for weight loss. I was not overweight when I started 1.80cm and 74 kilos, 34 inch waist. I am now 69 kilos and 31 inch waist. I am doing it to combat atherosclerosis. Other than 1 week out  of keto (when I went to Japan and had a love affair with chocolate croissants), I have been in ketosis the entire time. 

Agreed. It is being sold as a fad diet, and criticised as such. 

The health aspects, as well as the general uprising against conventional treatment of the many problems associated with following standard diet recommendations, are much more important.

Sometimes difficult to wade through all the hype and misinformation surrounding the subject.

[Shiver]

On 11/8/2018 at 8:19 AM, Airalee said:

I met him in Maehongson in the beginning of 2017.  The difference is amazing.

Now that he's successfully removed so much weight, it might be worth considering cryolipolysis to get rid of the man boobs.  Otherwise he looks in fine fettle.

[Shiver]

Btw, I don't know if anyone is interested, but I had some Ketostix imported a while back for an experiment I was doing on myself.  The date is past their best before (late 2018), unopened, and only have a couple of boxes, but if anyone wants a box, they're free, just PM/DM me.

[bkk6060]

On 3/29/2019 at 8:43 PM, THAIPHUKET said:

interesting indeed =  atherosclerosis

 

CONGRATS !

Are chocolate croissants by any chance also good against Keto breath smell? The Lady is complaining, I'm almost about to give up. Her value is greater than losing some body mass.

 

Go eat some Som Tum and your breathe will smell like hers..

Edited March 31, 2019 by bkk6060

[cooked]

19 hours ago, Shiver said:

Btw, I don't know if anyone is interested, but I had some Ketostix imported a while back for an experiment I was doing on myself.  The date is past their best before (late 2018), unopened, and only have a couple of boxes, but if anyone wants a box, they're free, just PM/DM me.

 

19 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Go eat some Som Tum and your breathe will smell like hers..

You can buy them on Lazada.

They were originally conceived for use by diabetics, their utility and accuracy are contested. The presence of ketones, whether you are in ketosis or not, varies throughout the day and throughout the week. Maybe you can find one of the ketometers that are now on the market, I believe they measure other biometrics at the same time.

[Jajazazajaja]

I’m back on Keto and know how to do it and if I stick to it the weight just falls off and I feel great.

 

the only problem is that im bored to tears, absolutely cheesed off! I love going out and having a few drinks and socialising or finding a new nice little bar and having thai snacks, but I can’t do that and lose weight at the same time.

 

what do you do with yourselves of an evening when on Keto?

[FracturedRabbit]

I’m back on Keto and know how to do it and if I stick to it the weight just falls off and I feel great.
 
the only problem is that im bored to tears, absolutely cheesed off! I love going out and having a few drinks and socialising or finding a new nice little bar and having thai snacks, but I can’t do that and lose weight at the same time.
 
what do you do with yourselves of an evening when on Keto?

Same as I did when I wasn’t on keto. Many interesting things to do in life other than drinking in bars.


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[FracturedRabbit]

You can buy them on Lazada.
They were originally conceived for use by diabetics, their utility and accuracy are contested. The presence of ketones, whether you are in ketosis or not, varies throughout the day and throughout the week. Maybe you can find one of the ketometers that are now on the market, I believe they measure other biometrics at the same time.

Ketones in urine are excess ketones, so you could be in ketosis but have zero ketones in your urine.
I got a Keto Mojo which measures ketones in the blood (and can also do blood sugar).


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[robblok]

7 hours ago, Jajazazajaja said:

I’m back on Keto and know how to do it and if I stick to it the weight just falls off and I feel great.

 

the only problem is that im bored to tears, absolutely cheesed off! I love going out and having a few drinks and socialising or finding a new nice little bar and having thai snacks, but I can’t do that and lose weight at the same time.

 

what do you do with yourselves of an evening when on Keto?

That is the problem with Keto its just not suitable for everyone. What good is a diet if it deprives you of a lifestyle you desire. Its actually the same with any diet if it does not fit your lifestyle its not going to work. 

 

But would just cutting down on drinking and eating less work for you ? It might go slower then keto but it would be far better sustainable in the long run. 

 

Keto might be good but it is bad if you can't stick with it. You have to find something that works for you that you can stick with. 

 

I am lucky that I am not a bar type as I know it would seriously mess with my diet as alcohol (and other drinks) contain a lot of bad stuff and calories. 

[robblok]

29 minutes ago, FracturedRabbit said:

Ketones in urine are excess ketones, so you could be in ketosis but have zero ketones in your urine.
I got a Keto Mojo which measures ketones in the blood (and can also do blood sugar).


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There are even products to fool the keto lovers here.. sprinkling ketones on food then being happy when you pee them out. That is how fooled some people are. 

 

Your body can burn fat too when your not in ketose its a proven scientific fact. 

 

But in your case weight loss is not even an issue so why care if your in ketose or not ? 

 

How long have you been low carb ? Just curious. 

[WaveHunter]

Anybody know where to order glucose & ketone test strips for Precision Xtra meter, online here in Thailand, or walk-in stores in Pattaya?  Started a long term fast and just realized all my strips are way beyond exp. date.  Really want to record results so need them ASAP. ????

Edited May 3, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

On 6/14/2018 at 3:27 PM, BigT73 said:

Actually the opposite your body doesnt understand when you are dieting, it thinks you are actually starving, bodys first response is to canabolise muscle as it isnt needed and perserve your body fat as a last resource fuel source, it will also try to slow down your metabolism.  Hence to trick it is to load up on calories once or twice a week it will then continue fatburning and perserve all your muscle gains.  Simalar to this was the low cal diet with a cheat day to load up on calories.

That’s true of a calorie restricted (non keto) diet only.  Muscle protein will not be catabolized significantly once ketone bodies are produced sufficiently to fuel the brain and allow stored fat to be accessed as fuel source for the body.  No need for carbs or cheat days once you are truly into ketosis and adapted to fat metabolism.

 

Also, your basal metabolic rate (BMR) will actually increase, not decrease once you are truly into a ketogenic state.  

 

Partly the reason is that gluconeogenesis will provide all the glucose your body needs even though you are consuming low or even no carbs, and also, growth hormone is ramped up greatly while in ketosis which will naturally raise your BMR.

 

When the body finds itself in a fasted state, it is a lot smarter than most people give it credit for.

[WaveHunter]

On 6/16/2018 at 11:19 AM, dontoearth said:

      You can get those pee strips and see if you are really in ketosis or not.  I did that once and found that I really needed a few days of damn near zero carbs to get my body to do it.  

That’s because, while glycogen stores in the liver can be depleted pretty quickly in the absence of carbs, muscle glycogen takes significantly longer.  Typically for somebody coming from a carb rich diet into a totally fasted state, it usually takes around 72 hours to get into ketosis, and see indications of that on a test strip.   

[robblok]

33 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Anybody know where to order glucose & ketone test strips for Precision Xtra meter, online here in Thailand, or walk-in stores in Pattaya?  Started a long term fast and just realized all my strips are way beyond exp. date.  Really want to record results so need them ASAP. ????

You sound like my GF (works in a pharmacy) who get crazy if medicine are beyond a date. They might be a bit less effective but still work. Often its a ploy (IMHO). Are you worried they wont work anymore ?

[robblok]

14 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

That’s true of a calorie restricted (non keto) diet only.  Muscle protein will not be catabolized significantly once ketone bodies are produced sufficiently to fuel the brain and allow stored fat to be accessed as fuel source for the body.  No need for carbs or cheat days once you are truly into ketosis and adapted to fat metabolism.

 

Also, your basal metabolic rate (BMR) will actually increase, not decrease once you are truly into a ketogenic state.  

 

Partly the reason is that gluconeogenesis will provide all the glucose your body needs even though you are consuming low or even no carbs, and also, growth hormone is ramped up greatly while in ketosis which will naturally raise your BMR.

 

When the body finds itself in a fasted state, it is a lot smarter than most people give it credit for.

Just keep exercising then the body wont catabolize muscle in general. As long as the body knows it needs the muscle it wont catabolize it at all. 

 

Do you have a scientific study about BMR raising when in ketose VS when not in ketose ? Love to read it. THAT would be one of the things to push me to low carb completely. 

[WaveHunter]

On 6/17/2018 at 9:26 AM, dontoearth said:

      

 ...There is so much out there today to help people with Type II diabetes get off of all the treatments that damage their bodies that is sad the medical community is still pushing outdated damaging treatments. ...

So true!  It’s remarkable how poorly informed many medical professionals actually are.  

 

Even national health organizations like the American Diabetes Association are still entrenched in outdated dogma.  

 

On their website, they actually advise that Diabetes type 2 is an irreversible condition, and advise that patients need to recognize that long-term medication (insulin) will be required to control it.  And most Doctors these days are too lazy (or scared) to think outside of the box, and simply regurgitate this nonsense.

 

In light of what is now known about the connection between nutrition and Diabetes, that way of thinking is simply crazy!

 

The very idea of treating Diabetes type 2 with insulin injections is like giving alcohol to an alcoholic!  Sure, it treats the “symptoms” of the disease for a while, but it only exacerbates the underlying cause and over time makes it worse and worse.  

 

It’s a slippery slope as greater amounts of insulin need to be injected to overcome ever increasing insulin insensitivity, which only results in greater inhibition of liver lipolysis until serious and irreversible metabolic syndromes set in.

 

These days it seems that doctors have lost the ability to treat disease and only know how to treat symptoms by reaching for their prescription pad.  It’s like putting a band-aid on an infected wound!

Edited May 3, 2019 by WaveHunter

[Jajazazajaja]

So here’s what I eat, in case anyone is interested what some random bloke on the internet does 

 

Breakfast - Keto Coffee (2 Tbsp Ghee, 1 MCT Oil, half glass coconut milk)

 

lunch - Half a “five star chicken” or 4 pieces of “Chester’s” spicy chicken. 

 

Snack - 2 boiled eggs, can of tuna, 2 tbsps of Mayo or head of Broccoli with butter or coconut oil. (Sometimes have this for dinner if I can’t be arsed)

 

Dinner - Prawns fried in Ghee, Garlic and chilli, or fried fish in coconut oil or occasionally some pork in coconut oil. 

 

At least 4 litres of water with lime, usually more

 

weightlifting 4 times a week, 2 rounds of golf and at least 15,000 steps a day

 

if I stick to it, the weight flys off, 15 pounds a month, easy 

 

get a bit bored tho 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Jajazazajaja

[ThaiBunny]

I follow Michael Mosley's Blood Sugar Diet (loosely) and I've lost 12 kilos in 12 weeks. Breakfast - a small amount of muesli and full cream milk, standard latte coffee; lunch - some sort of chopped fruit from the roadside vendor (usually papaya or canteloupe) and three scoops of plain Greek yoghurt, standard latte coffee; snack - peanut butter and crackers, lemon and ginger tea; dinner - half a chicken breast or equivalent plus some of tomato, cucumber, bok choy, carrot etc. My blood sugars have dived (now at a prediabetic stage rather than diabetic) and I'm on roughly 40% of the insulin I was on before I started.  Exercise ... hmmm.  If I get to 10,000 steps by wandering around the neighbourhood that's a good day

Edited May 3, 2019 by ThaiBunny

[Jajazazajaja]

44 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

I follow Michael Mosley's Blood Sugar Diet (loosely) and I've lost 12 kilos in 12 weeks. Breakfast - a small amount of muesli and full cream milk, standard latte coffee; lunch - some sort of chopped fruit from the roadside vendor (usually papaya or canteloupe) and three scoops of plain Greek yoghurt, standard latte coffee; snack - peanut butter and crackers, lemon and ginger tea; dinner - half a chicken breast or equivalent plus some of tomato, cucumber, bok choy, carrot etc. My blood sugars have dived (now at a prediabetic stage rather than diabetic) and I'm on roughly 40% of the insulin I was on before I started.  Exercise ... hmmm.  If I get to 10,000 steps by wandering around the neighbourhood that's a good day

That looks very manageable, much less restrictive than keto

 

oh I miss my fruit 

[madmen]

10 hours ago, Jajazazajaja said:

I’m back on Keto and know how to do it and if I stick to it the weight just falls off and I feel great.

 

the only problem is that im bored to tears, absolutely cheesed off! I love going out and having a few drinks and socialising or finding a new nice little bar and having thai snacks, but I can’t do that and lose weight at the same time.

 

what do you do with yourselves of an evening when on Keto?

You will still lose weight just very slowly. Your body switches to burning alcohol before fat so drinking spirits is the way to go and while it slows you down it wont necessarily kick you out of Ketosis . Beer is a no go its basically liquid bread and will kick you out of ketosis even after one beer due to the dense carb content

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Just keep exercising then the body wont catabolize muscle in general. As long as the body knows it needs the muscle it wont catabolize it at all. 

 

Do you have a scientific study about BMR raising when in ketose VS when not in ketose ? Love to read it. THAT would be one of the things to push me to low carb completely. 

Let me be clear, I am speaking primarily about fasting studies but since the mechanism that causes increased GH during fasting is the induced ketogenic state, I am speaking of ketogenic diets as well.

 

Probably the single most important distinction between (non-keto) calorie-restricted diets and diets that produce ketone bodies is with regard to resultant changes in Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR). 

 

The main reason why most (non-keto) caloric restriction diets do not work in the long-term is that the body's first response to caloric restriction is to reduce BMR.  It does this because a lower BMR reduces the calories needed to maintain homeostasis.  The body's prime directive is first and foremost, to always to maintain homeostatic state 

 

So, even though you have reduced your caloric intake, the body's need for calories has now been reduced to match the intake.  The net result is that you loose little if any fat.

 

Under this circumstance it's entirely possible to even GAIN fat!  When a person goes on a severe calorie-restricted diet and gets frustrated after several days because they see no significant weight drop, they resume eating.  Since their BMR is now in a reduced state, even if they resume eating the same calories they were eating before they started their diet (most will binge and eat even more than usual), they will now actually gain weight because the calories consumed are now in excess of what the body needs at the lowered BMR!  That is the classic outcome of most calorie-restricted diets; the person ends up fatter than when they started the diet.

 

Anyway, to your question about the science-based link between growth hormone and fasting, and research that substantiates it, here are a few examples:

 

In 1982, Kerndt et al published a study of a single patient who decided to undergo a 40-day fast for religious purposes. Their assumption was, that as ketone levels rise they replace glucose as the primary energy source in the central nervous system, thereby decreasing the need for gluconeogenesis and sparing protein catabolism. Their study showed several hormonal changes occur during fasting, including a fall in insulin and T(3) levels and a rise in glucagon and reverse T(3) levels.  It also showed GH went from at 0.73 (pre-fast) to a peaks of 9.86 at 36 hours into the fast.  That is a 1,250% increase.

 

Here is a snapshot from that study:

 

Other studies have shown the same increase in growth hormone.  Hartman et al also showed a 5 fold increase in GH in response to a 2 day fast in their published study, "Augmented growth hormone (GH) secretory burst frequency and amplitude mediate enhanced GH secretion during a two-day fast in normal men."

 

In 1988, Ho KY et al also studied fasting and GH and published a report, "Fasting Enhances Growth Hormone Secretion and Amplifies the Complex Rhythms of Growth Hormone Secretion in Man" . 

 

Snapshot form the study:

 

Some people claim that fasting a single day causes loss of ¼ pound of muscle. Studies now prove that this does not occur.  In fact, the opposite can happen. In comparing caloric reduction diets to fasting, the fasting was 4 times better at preserving lean mass!  See Catenacci et al.

 

I'm just scratching the surface.  Numerous studies support that the concept that effective BMR levels are maintained during ketogenesis partly through increased release of GH.  And the release plays a significant role at preserving lean body mass.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

You sound like my GF (works in a pharmacy) who get crazy if medicine are beyond a date. They might be a bit less effective but still work. Often its a ploy (IMHO). Are you worried they wont work anymore ?

I just noticed mine have expiration date of 2015.  You might be right and normallyI wouldn't be concerned if it was just a few months but over 4 years...Hmmm???

 

I am doing a biohack sort of study on fasting so I really want accuracy in the readings.

 

Even so, I started the fast on Tuesday so I'm already into day 3 and the strips seem to be valid, but just would be nice to have fresh ones before end of fast to compare expired ones with fresh ones to have an accurate baseline.

 

Would you mind asking your GF is she knows?

Edited May 3, 2019 by WaveHunter

[FracturedRabbit]

1 hour ago, ThaiBunny said:

I follow Michael Mosley's Blood Sugar Diet (loosely) and I've lost 12 kilos in 12 weeks. Breakfast - a small amount of muesli and full cream milk, standard latte coffee; lunch - some sort of chopped fruit from the roadside vendor (usually papaya or canteloupe) and three scoops of plain Greek yoghurt, standard latte coffee; snack - peanut butter and crackers, lemon and ginger tea; dinner - half a chicken breast or equivalent plus some of tomato, cucumber, bok choy, carrot etc. My blood sugars have dived (now at a prediabetic stage rather than diabetic) and I'm on roughly 40% of the insulin I was on before I started.  Exercise ... hmmm.  If I get to 10,000 steps by wandering around the neighbourhood that's a good day

Good you are making progress, but still seems like you are still eating a load of carbs/sugar (muesli, milk, fruit, peanut butter, crackers). 

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, ThaiBunny said:

I follow Michael Mosley's Blood Sugar Diet (loosely) and I've lost 12 kilos in 12 weeks. Breakfast - a small amount of muesli and full cream milk, standard latte coffee; lunch - some sort of chopped fruit from the roadside vendor (usually papaya or canteloupe) and three scoops of plain Greek yoghurt, standard latte coffee; snack - peanut butter and crackers, lemon and ginger tea; dinner - half a chicken breast or equivalent plus some of tomato, cucumber, bok choy, carrot etc. My blood sugars have dived (now at a prediabetic stage rather than diabetic) and I'm on roughly 40% of the insulin I was on before I started.  Exercise ... hmmm.  If I get to 10,000 steps by wandering around the neighbourhood that's a good day

Good for you!  Sure sounds like steps in the right direction.  This is just my opinion but you might want to try reducing sugars even more if you can, when you can, but your progress is certainly commendable! 

 

The old notion that insulin is the only way to deal with Diabetes type 2 is a thing of the past, and many people are finding proper (sugar free) nutrition is the key, not prescription drugs!

Edited May 3, 2019 by WaveHunter