Testosterone, steroids, etc.

[honu]

I'm 50 and at this point I'd never even consider taking testosterone or any related drugs, but I have noticed that athletic training is a completely different experience than when I was younger from taking up running a few months ago.  So it goes. 

 

All the same it's interesting watching the occasional video on steroid use just to hear what some of those hormones and other compounds do, mostly in the course of taking relatively high dosages, but it extends back to learning the normal functions of many too.  HGH (growth hormone) is interesting, and Stallone seems to have gotten away with using it for a long time.  Professional wrestlers and body builders don't always.  This video by a professional bodybuilder was interesting for listing out some of what people take.  Obviously I can't critique it, to suggest changes or to endorse it as practical or safe:  

 

 

[WaveHunter]

6 minutes ago, honu said:

...HGH (growth hormone) is interesting, and Stallone seems to have gotten away with using it for a long time. ...

 

Regarding Stallone, I just saw a recent youtube video of him working out in the gym in preparation for a movie.  He is 72 years old but looks like he's in his late 40's or early 50's and he looks stronger than ever!  I swear, it blew me away how good he looks!  Maybe there's something to HGH LOL!! ????

 

[faraday]

43 minutes ago, robblok said:

I am still doing IM but i read more and more about them doing it subQ. I have done HGH subQ. 

 

Many sites now promote doing test E for TRT subQ. What would be your problem with it ? I havent tested it yet but I am considering it as it would mean less scarring on muscles.

 

As for TRT doses I seen higher doses for TRT named too. 

The problem I & others I knew had, was getting the oil to disperse under the skin. Also pushing an oil through a 27g syringe can be tricker; more plunger pressure is needed.

[robblok]

13 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Actually you're right...I agree with that.  The study I read was for first-time users.  I remember reading that bodybuilders that do subsequent cycles have to increase dosage due to receptor habituation.  But still, how does a bodybuilder get to the point where they need 3,000mg like that YouTube guy?  I dunno, but to me that just sounds insane.

 

I also agree with you about bodybuilder forums.  I may not agree with using steroids for BB and PED but some of those guys seriously know what they are talking about, and since a lot of that type of use of AAS is pretty underground and not formally studied like at universities, body builder forums are the only place you're going to find that information.  

 

You may have to sift a lot of fiction from fact on those forums but you can certainly find some pretty valuable information on them for sure!

I doubt they need 3000 mg its too much. But I am not going to judge others their risk. Its not something I would do.

 

Yes on the forums there are some real knowledgeable guys, i learned a lot not only about steroids but training too. You just have to sift through the bad information. 

 

I do feel bad for beginners who have no idea what is bad information and what is not.

[robblok]

Just now, faraday said:

The problem I & others I knew had, was getting the oil to disperse under the skin. Also pushing an oil through a 27g syringe can be tricker; more plunger pressure is needed.

I never tried it so that is why I asked as I do like the idea of doing it Subq. Now my gf does all the injecting. Always goes good in buttocks but I can't reach it myself. Other injection spots are more sensitive. I did subQ for HGH and it was easy (water based). I never did oil based so I would not know. I can understand that a 27g would be hard. I use 24g for IM.

[robblok]

8 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Regarding Stallone, I just saw a recent youtube video of him working out in the gym in preparation for a movie.  He is 72 years old but looks like he's in his late 40's or early 50's and he looks stronger than ever!  I swear, it blew me away how good he looks!  Maybe there's something to HGH LOL!! ????

 

In my experience there is nothing to HGH. I have used it for a while to see if it would help me for fat loss. For fat loss it did not work, and I did not notice much muscle buildup either. IMHO a waste of money. 

 

I had pharma grade stuff. In total I did 1000 IU and used 4IU per day (even went higher). This was when i first came to Thailand and really started to get into training again. I think i used it while I used testosterone too. (its a while back I only know that I was not happy with the results)

[simon43]

In support of WaveHunter's posts, I was also prescribed 250mg injections, twice weekly by Maximum Fitness, Pattaya.  (I have a generic low T level, as did my father and as does my son).

 

I inject into the muscle of my buttock, using a #30 needle.  I have never had any problems or pain with this - I press the needle very slowly until it passes through the skin, slowly push all the needle in, slowly push the plunger, slowly pull out.

 

Since commencing this TRT treatment with the clinic last September, I now self-manage my program, with a blood works check every 3 months.

 

My TRT did reach about 1200 after the first 3 months of 250 mg.  Now I have backed off to 200 mg twice weekly, (which is still a simple split of the 1000 mg ampoules into 5 equal syringes).

 

I also take a weekly estradiol tab.  To date, my energy levels have greatly improved and as a bonus, my ED problems have all but gone.  I eat good food, don't drink, jog every day, do some light weights training.

[faraday]

45 minutes ago, Ks45672 said:

250mg or even 300 a week maybe a bit high but if you train hard 2x a day your levels will deplete faster than someone who doesn't get off the couch watching TV.... 

 

I don't think there is any standard dose that works for everyone and many people think the optimal range can be as high as 1200 naturally but we all metabolise it differently 

There are guidelines - as shown in my post for TRT, & the BSSM also makes a recommendation & protocol.

 

But it seems my post was dismissed too easily as nit picking.

 

Which it wasn't.

[WaveHunter]

7 minutes ago, faraday said:

The problem I & others I knew had, was getting the oil to disperse under the skin. Also pushing an oil through a 27g syringe can be tricker; more plunger pressure is needed.

I use insulin syringes with 26 or 27 ga needles.  Yes, it takes a bit longer to push the oil-suspended solution through but really it amounts to maybe 10 seconds at most.  Not really that big a deal, and the benefits to subQ over IM are well worth it in my opinion.  

 

To deal with dispersing the oil under the skin, I simply rub the area with the alcohol wipe in a massaging motion post-injection for maybe 30 seconds.  Yes, you can still feel a slight lump but it's nothing detrimental and you can't see it so it's not a cosmetic issue.

 

All in all, I feel much more comfortable with subQ.  Since I inject twice weekly, IM injections would certainly involve muscle scarring issues and they are generally more painful due to larger gauge and longer needles.  And my big fear (whether founded or not) is developing an abscess.  I'd rather deal with it at skin level than deep inside a muscle...ya know?

[WaveHunter]

14 minutes ago, simon43 said:

In support of WaveHunter's posts, I was also prescribed 250mg injections, twice weekly by Maximum Fitness, Pattaya.  (I have a generic low T level, as did my father and as does my son).

 

I inject into the muscle of my buttock, using a #30 needle.  I have never had any problems or pain with this - I press the needle very slowly until it passes through the skin, slowly push all the needle in, slowly push the plunger, slowly pull out.

 

Since commencing this TRT treatment with the clinic last September, I now self-manage my program, with a blood works check every 3 months.

 

My TRT did reach about 1200 after the first 3 months of 250 mg.  Now I have backed off to 200 mg twice weekly, (which is still a simple split of the 1000 mg ampoules into 5 equal syringes).

 

I also take a weekly estradiol tab.  To date, my energy levels have greatly improved and as a bonus, my ED problems have all but gone.  I eat good food, don't drink, jog every day, do some light weights training.

I am kind of confused.  250mg, twice weekly...as in 500mg per week...are you sure about that? That is a HUGE dose for TRT.  I was on 200mg per week and it raised my TT to over 1400 so I had to back it off to 125mg which gave me 900 ng/dL TT.  Or did you mean 250mg per week split into two injections of 125mg each? 

 

Also, just a tip you might want to consider.  I also tried a much finer needle (31ga actually) but found that 27 or even 26 gauge were just as comfortable but the flow was of course much faster.  With 31 ga it would take me well over a minute to push the oil, but with 26 or 27 it's maybe 10-15 seconds.

[WaveHunter]

25 minutes ago, robblok said:

In my experience there is nothing to HGH. I have used it for a while to see if it would help me for fat loss. For fat loss it did not work, and I did not notice much muscle buildup either. IMHO a waste of money. 

 

I had pharma grade stuff. In total I did 1000 IU and used 4IU per day (even went higher). This was when i first came to Thailand and really started to get into training again. I think i used it while I used testosterone too. (its a while back I only know that I was not happy with the results)

The feeling I get is it is way over-hyped, and of course, outrageously expensive.  Even so, I've been tempted to try it BUT the main reason I don't is that it seems almost impossible to know whether you're getting the real deal or something that's garbage. 

 

The name brands like Pfizer are heavily counterfeited and even the well known underground brands from China that are supposed to be good (according to actual blood tests posted on bodybuilder forums by user/members) are also counterfeited or just elaborate scams. 

 

Considering some of the counterfeit stuff that comes out of China (remember the powdered baby milk scandal from a  few years ago), I think I'll just pass...thank you very much LOL!

[robblok]

1 minute ago, WaveHunter said:

The feeling I get is it is way over-hyped, and of course it is outrageously expensive.  Even so, I've been tempted to try it BUT the main reason I don't is that it seems almost imposible to know whether you're getting the real deal or something that garbage.  The name brands like Pfizer are heavily counterfeited and even the well known underground brands from China that are supped to be good (according to actual blood tests posted on bodybuilder forums by user/members) are also counterfeited or just elaborate scams.  Considering some of the counterfeit stuff that comes out of China (remember the powdered baby milk scandal from a  few years ago), I think I'll just pass...thank you very much LOL!

I am pretty sure i got the right stuff, it was recommended by a friend I bought it straight from a Chinese producer of HGH. They guaranteed delivery if it was held up by customs. I did get a bit of a bloat at first so I am sure it was HGH. 

 

Anyway not something I will do again, i rather buy other gym equipment or whatever for it. 

[robblok]

19 minutes ago, faraday said:

There are guidelines - as shown in my post for TRT, & the BSSM also makes a recommendation & protocol.

 

But it seems my post was dismissed too easily as nit picking.

 

Which it wasn't.

I believe there are guidelines but i read a lot about higher dosages too. T nation writes about 100-200 mg per week depending on how you respond to it. They say some people need more then others. I am not talking about the forum but an article of the guys that are supposed to know.

 

But I havent checked all sites what Drs keep as guidelines. 

[robblok]

22 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I use insulin syringes with 26 or 27 ga needles.  Yes, it takes a bit longer to push the oil-suspended solution through but really it amounts to maybe 10 seconds at most.  Not really that big a deal, and the benefits to subQ over IM are well worth it in my opinion.  

 

To deal with dispersing the oil under the skin, I simply rub the area with the alcohol wipe in a massaging motion post-injection for maybe 30 seconds.  Yes, you can still feel a slight lump but it's nothing detrimental and you can't see it so it's not a cosmetic issue.

 

All in all, I feel much more comfortable with subQ.  Since I inject twice weekly, IM injections would certainly involve muscle scarring issues and they are generally more painful due to larger gauge and longer needles.  And my big fear (whether founded or not) is developing an abscess.  I'd rather deal with it at skin level than deep inside a muscle...ya know?

I take it if you inject twice weekly that you only inject 1/4 of a ML ?

[WaveHunter]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

I am pretty sure i got the right stuff, it was recommended by a friend I bought it straight from a Chinese producer of HGH. They guaranteed delivery if it was held up by customs. I did get a bit of a bloat at first so I am sure it was HGH. 

 

Anyway not something I will do again, i rather buy other gym equipment or whatever for it. 

Just curious; weren't you nervous about it being confiscated by customs, aside from the fact that the seller would reimburse you.  I mean, Thailand is pretty sticky about categorized drugs like HGH.  I'd be scared of ending up in the Bangkok Gray Bar hotel, ya know LOL!

[WaveHunter]

6 minutes ago, robblok said:

I take it if you inject twice weekly that you only inject 1/4 of a ML ?

Correct.  I think it might be kind of stupid since the half life is sufficient for once a week.  I got used to doing it on higher dosage when I started and just kept doing it that way.  I think splitting it up minimizes the "lumps" from doing it subQ since less is being injected into one site, but on the other hand, I am thinking I waste more testosterone since there's always a little bit in the syringe that doesn't get delivered.  Not a big deal either way I guess.  "Six of one; half dozen of another", as they say ????

 

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Just curious; weren't you nervous about it being confiscated by customs, aside from the fact that the seller would reimburse you.  I mean, Thailand is pretty sticky about categorized drugs like HGH.  I'd be scared of ending up in the Bangkok Gray Bar hotel, ya know LOL!

I was younger more rash back then, besides friends had done it too. The worst that could happen I thought was confiscation. I once tried to import peptides (you know what these are ?) from the UK. I was summoned to the Laksi station.. i said it was for labratory testing not human testing and they let me take it back home. So all in all I don't worry about it too much. 

 

I would play stupid as its not a drug as in speed ect. 

[WaveHunter]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

I was younger more rash back then, besides friends had done it too. The worst that could happen I thought was confiscation. I once tried to import peptides (you know what these are ?) from the UK. I was summoned to the Laksi station.. i said it was for labratory testing not human testing and they let me take it back home. So all in all I don't worry about it too much. 

 

I would play stupid as its not a drug as in speed ect. 

LOL...you're braver than me.  I got busted by Customs last year because they found an e-cigarette in a box sent to me from Amazon.  They made my life hell!  They not only confiscated the e-cig which was only worth $50 but they confiscated my entire Amazon shipment which was valued at over $500 on the grounds that anything in the box containing the e-cig was part of an illegal shipment!

 

The funny thing is, after about 5 months the package mysteriously showed up, delivered at my doorstop WITH NO DUTY DUE on a shipment of over $500 of declared goods.  Now I was really scared LOL!!!  I took the package indoors but the whole night I was expecting to hear a knock on the door from the police or something crazy like that! Hahahaha, nothing ended up happening.  To this day, it's all just a weird mystery.  Only in Thailand I guess!

 

Sorry for going off-topic but I had to share it; one of the funniest, weirdest things that's happened to me here

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, faraday said:

There are guidelines - as shown in my post for TRT, & the BSSM also makes a recommendation & protocol.

 

But it seems my post was dismissed too easily as nit picking.

 

Which it wasn't.

Faraday, I apologize for my post with the "nit picking" comment.  I was in bad mood and might have come off too harsh but the thing is that your proof that you attached, that was supposed to support your contention that I was grossly incorrect about dosing was basically in agreement with my doctor's prescribed dosage.  I mean, 100mg vs 125mg is not a big difference in TRT.

 

Furthermore, You have to consider that dosage guidelines are only guidelines, not numbers etched into stone.  My dosage was set by an experienced physician who explained his dosing rationale to me in detail.  He had his reasons for starting me off on a high dose, and then backing down, rather than doing it the opposite way.  I'm not going to go into that here, but it is a valid protocol.  I digress though.

 

In practical terms as opposed to theoretical guidelines, it is simply far easier for me to use 125mg as a dosage when using 1mL / 250mg ampules since that dosage provide two precise doses per ampule, instead of ending up with 50mg left over.  If, on the other hand, I was using ampules dosed at 200mg/mL, than I'd probably do individual doses at 100mg.  It's just a matter of practicality more than anything.

 

Anyway, just wanted to apologize for being sort of rude before.  It wasn't my intention.  I love debating points of contention with anybody who want to do that over "debatable" topics.  This just did not seem to be a debatable topic.  Anyway...sorry, hope there are no hard feelings because this thread seem to be a real good one with some great input from a lot of smart people (and of course that includes you).

[Destiny1990]

4 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Faraday, I apologize for my post with the "nit picking" comment.  I was in bad mood and might have come off too harsh but the thing is that your proof that I was incorrect about dosing was basically in agreement with my doctor's dosage.  You have to consider that dosage guidelines are only guidelines, not numbers etched into stone.  My dosage was set by an experienced physician who explained his dosing rationale to me in detail.  As I said, 25mg one way or another is not a big deal as far as I can see when it comes to TRT, and again, in practical terms, it is far easier for me to use 125mg as a dosage when using 1mL / 250mg ampules since that dosage provide two precise doses per ampule.

 

Just wanted to apologize for being sort of rude.  I love debating points of contention with anybody who want to do that over "debatable" topics.  This just did not seem to be a debatable topic.  Anyway...sorry, hope there are no hard feelings because this thread seem to be a real good one with some great input from a lot of smart people (and of course that includes you).

U maybe already mentioned this but What was ur last t level prior to trt? 

 

[WaveHunter]

At one point my TT tested in the high 200's but I did not start TRT then.  I tried other things to improve it (exercise, nutrition); none of which really improved my symptoms.  When I finally decided to do TRT, my TT came in the 500's, maybe low 600's...i forget exactly and I'm too lazy to hunt for those old tests. 

 

Not really sure if that second blood test was accurate or not, and can't remember whether I tested AM or PM (makes a difference). I was always a little suspicious of the 2nd test since I felt no different than when did original test (in other words, felt like crap)...so I'm guessing the first test was probably more indicative.

[faraday]

Ok Wavehunter, thank you. ????

 

Hmmm yes, HGH! Too damned expensive & it is synthetic.

 

Peptides are far better because, as we know they stimulate the Pituitary into producing GH.

 

I used Ipamorelin & Mod grf, a few years back, with good results, & with much less expense. I was doing subq 2 X day, but got fed up with the constant fiddling ie injections, about. Some people subq 5 times a day!

 

I had increased recovery time from training, & more stamina. Wasn't a bb'er by any means though.

 

Then after retiring & moving here, I had a hip replacement.

 

No more gym, no more running. Horrible!

 

You ever go on 'datbtrue' before his err demise?

[faraday]

I'd like to discuss optimum e2 levels at sometime. Bit busy right now.

 

(posted as a reminder to myself) ????

[WaveHunter]

3 hours ago, faraday said:

I'd like to discuss optimum e2 levels at sometime. Bit busy right now.

 

(posted as a reminder to myself) ????

I'll chime in. First off, I think finding an ideal or optimal E2 level is a very subjective thing.  There are guidelines but no absolutes here.

 

As for the facts, Estradiol levels decline with age in men (just like testosterone does).  When you are on TRT, both will often become elevated but more importantly they will be out of balance with one another.  The ratio of testosterone to estrogen is a very delicate balancing act.  If the ratio of testosterone to estrogen gets out of balance you will definitely know something is wrong!  Believe me, you will definitely know! I dealt with this when I started TRT and it was no walk in the park for me, let me tell you! 

 

Fact:  The normal E2 range is age dependent and according to studies that have appeared in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, in the general male population the median values range between 28.0 pg/ml in age group 2-29, down to 21.9 pg/ml in age group 70-80.  As you can see, E2 decline with age.  That does NOT mean that these values are optimal!  They are simply the median values for the male population as a whole,

 

Most TRT doctors want an E2 value of 30pg/ml or just below that but not lower than 25.  Lower values can be just as bad as values that are too high.  As usual, there will always be some that will debate this particular number, but most reliable sources I've heard or read use 30pg/mL as a "optimal" benchmark irregardless of age.  Take that for what it's worth.

 

For almost all people on TRT there will be a need to control elevated E2, and they will use an anti-aromatase inhibitor to do it.  Usually that will be Anastrozole.  Finding the precise dosage of Anastrozole is usually a bit of trial & error but for most, the dosage is usually around 0.25mcg every 2-3 days.  For me, it is 0.25mcg twice a week.  For convenience, I just take my dose at the same time I do my test injection.  My E2 stays right around 30 pg/ml on every blood test and I feel fine, so for me I have it dialed in pretty good.

 

Bottom line:  I think it's safe to say that you should shoot for 30pg/ml as an optimal E2 level.  As I said, if your testosterone / estrogen level is out of whack, it's going to be pretty obvious just by the way you feel.  Believe me...you'll know!  If you feel fine, then you can assume 30pg/mL is "optimal" for you.  If you suffer symptoms, then you adjust your E2 with a change in Anastrozole dosage and see how that effects your E2 in the next blood test.  I mean, what I'm really saying is that HOW YOU FEEL is a more important indicator than what your precise E2 number is (as long as it is within an acceptable healthy range of course).

 

That's my read on it, anyway.  Tell me what you think 

[WaveHunter]

5 hours ago, faraday said:

Ok Wavehunter, thank you. ????

 

Hmmm yes, HGH! Too damned expensive & it is synthetic.

 

Peptides are far better because, as we know they stimulate the Pituitary into producing GH.

 

I used Ipamorelin & Mod grf, a few years back, with good results, & with much less expense. I was doing subq 2 X day, but got fed up with the constant fiddling ie injections, about. Some people subq 5 times a day!

 

I had increased recovery time from training, & more stamina. Wasn't a bb'er by any means though.

 

Then after retiring & moving here, I had a hip replacement.

 

No more gym, no more running. Horrible!

 

You ever go on 'datbtrue' before his err demise?

I don't know much about peptides but am curious now because Robbloc also mentioned them and I've been sort of wondering about them in general as a possible (hopefully safe) PED for cycling (bicycling that is).  Actually I was under the impression that HGH was in fact a peptide.  I could be wrong. 

 

You say you had "increased" recovery time from peptides?  Did you actually mean reduced time? Reducing recovery time would be my main interest actually.

[eezergood]

1 hour ago, hyku1147 said:

SubQ TRT produces less aromatasation than intramuscular injection.

It can, however the level (dosage) is of greater concern for aromatisation 

[faraday]

HGH is a synthetic growth hormone, but the 'pulse' is quite big - it's also a Peptide (I misremembered in my earlier post)

 

However, not all Peptides are GHRP (gh releasing)

 

Peptides stimulate the Pituitary Gland to produce natural gh, but the amount is smaller.

 

It's all well explained here:

 

https://www.teampscarb.co.uk/the-very-basic-guide-to-ghrpghrh-peptides/

[simon43]

In response to WaveHunter's comment about my dosage, I probably got the units wrong!  Until recently, I injected twice a week from a 1ml ampoule, with that ampoule lasting 2 weeks (ie - split into 4), resulting in a high T level of about 1,200.

 

Now I split it into 5, ie 0.2ml per injection, and that results in a T level of about 900.  My estradiol is around 28, with a quarter of a tab every week.

 

BTW, I am stocked up with T ampoules, but running low on the tiny E tablets.  Can these be easily obtained or do I need to return to Maximum Fitness in BKK or Pattaya?  Thanks.

[robblok]

1 hour ago, simon43 said:

In response to WaveHunter's comment about my dosage, I probably got the units wrong!  Until recently, I injected twice a week from a 1ml ampoule, with that ampoule lasting 2 weeks (ie - split into 4), resulting in a high T level of about 1,200.

 

Now I split it into 5, ie 0.2ml per injection, and that results in a T level of about 900.  My estradiol is around 28, with a quarter of a tab every week.

 

BTW, I am stocked up with T ampoules, but running low on the tiny E tablets.  Can these be easily obtained or do I need to return to Maximum Fitness in BKK or Pattaya?  Thanks.

I know that the tiny E tablets can be bought in BKK, my regular pharmacy stopped but an other one close to the police box on nana still sells. However I order by phone / line.. then pay and pick it up later. Alternatively you can order and pay in the morning and pick up at night.

[robblok]

1 hour ago, faraday said:

HGH is a synthetic growth hormone, but the 'pulse' is quite big - it's also a Peptide (I misremembered in my earlier post)

 

However, not all Peptides are GHRP (gh releasing)

 

Peptides stimulate the Pituitary Gland to produce natural gh, but the amount is smaller.

 

It's all well explained here:

 

https://www.teampscarb.co.uk/the-very-basic-guide-to-ghrpghrh-peptides/

My problem with peptides would be getting them in the country. I have done so but the parcel ended up at Laksi and I had to come over and made some stupid story up that I used these things as a hobby for non human research. (was only a few vials so not enough to see results) 

 

Like with HGH peptides should be used for a long period of time.  My main problem would be getting them here. I also have no clue about prices. Still peptides sound quite interesting.