Testosterone, steroids, etc.

[robblok]

12 hours ago, StreetCowboy said:

The keto boys reckon that once you’ve gone keto you can go without food and burn fat better, and thus it’s easy to eat less than you burn.  Apparently the non-keto-adapted people are ravenously hungry and fainting with low blood sugar through lack of easily burnt hydrocarbons, and can’t exert the effort to burn the calories.

They are also of the opinion that once your in fat burning state you burn fat and only fat. This might be true but it still does not negate calories in vs calories out. There is no proof that keto delivers more fat loss at the same amounts of calories consumed. 

 

I don't have a problem with people doing keto, its their choice. I do have a problem with people who think its the only way to lose weight / fat.

 

I could not exercise properly or build muscle (on keto building muscle is almost impossible because of the lack of insulin this has been proven). I always take some carbs before my workouts the rest of the time i stay relatively low carb. But I don't stress out if I eat some carbs.

 

People still are confused about carbs there are good carbs and there is nothing wrong with carbs. There is a problem with too much carbs and the wrong kind of carbs. Nuances often get lost when you are talking to the people who make a religion out of diet.

[robblok]

1 hour ago, mokwit said:

That was my experience from taking carbs too low - not in the mood to do anything but still Ok energy wise in the gym.

I notice it in the gym if I don't take carbs. For anyone doing weight lifting carbs are useful. ATP and glycogen both fuels for lifting both come from carbs. To build muscles you need insulin.. no insulin you can't build muscles. 

 

Keto is a major problem for people who want to build muscle (studies show maintaining is ok on keto). Keto is ok for people who do duration sports but for weight lifting it impacts performance.

[brokenbone]

i think its about calories in/out,

but i also think protein is critical for keeping the muscles

during calorie deficit, so in a way, i also think keto-theory got a point.

 

i also get the impression drinking is very important for weight loss on a deficit run,

not just to compensate for the water loss in less food, but it seem i drop more weight when i drink more.

water sucks ass but lime water is rather pleasant

Edited February 27, 2019 by brokenbone

[robblok]

54 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

i think its about calories in/out,

but i also think protein is critical for keeping the muscles

during calorie deficit, so in a way, i also think keto-theory got a point.

 

i also get the impression drinking is very important for weight loss on a deficit run,

not just to compensate for the water loss in less food, but it seem i drop more weight when i drink more.

water sucks ass but lime water is rather pleasant

You lost me about how keto has a point about protein. Keto is not about high protein (it can have high protein) but its about low / no carb.

 

Its common knowledge that you need to be high in protein to keep from losing muscle. Also if you lose your weight too fast there is a big chance its muscle. Plus if you exercise while losing weight you hold on to muscle even better.

[eezergood]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

You lost me about how keto has a point about protein. Keto is not about high protein (it can have high protein) but its about low / no carb.

 

Its common knowledge that you need to be high in protein to keep from losing muscle. Also if you lose your weight too fast there is a big chance its muscle. Plus if you exercise while losing weight you hold on to muscle even better.

exactly true keto is very high fat not protein.

 

As for protein, you really only need 0.8g/lbs body weight this 1.5-2g/lbs is a myth that has been debunked ad nauseam

 

[robblok]

6 minutes ago, eezergood said:

exactly true keto is very high fat not protein.

 

As for protein, you really only need 0.8g/lbs body weight this 1.5-2g/lbs is a myth that has been debunked ad nauseam

 

You call it only.. its still quite a bit of protein. I try to aim for the 0,8 g and i usually get there. I don't go much over it (normally I dont). There is some research that higher protein helps if you are enhanced (read on steroids high doses)

[eezergood]

On 2/27/2019 at 12:02 PM, robblok said:

You call it only.. its still quite a bit of protein. I try to aim for the 0,8 g and i usually get there. I don't go much over it (normally I dont). There is some research that higher protein helps if you are enhanced (read on steroids high doses)

enhanced maybe, however research also shows those with more muscle (mature) mass also need less protein intake in order to maintain (per lbs of mass) 

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, eezergood said:

enhanced maybe, however research also shows those with more muscle (mature) mass also need less protein intake in order to maintain (per lbs of mass) 

Maybe, I do know its reasonable to think that the amounts are less then the amounts promoted in the articles from Bodybuilder magazines as they have vested interests in selling protein. 

 

I always try to shoot for 1,5 gram per KG of weight, usually i get there. Not much over it that is for sure. 

[brokenbone]

On 2/27/2019 at 11:53 AM, eezergood said:

exactly true keto is very high fat not protein.

 

As for protein, you really only need 0.8g/lbs body weight this 1.5-2g/lbs is a myth that has been debunked ad nauseam

 

why would anyone use a mix of units ?

why use 0.8g as in metric & kg scale, and then flip in the same sentence and say per pound ?

a mars explorer went down that way cause a mathematician was insecure of his sexuality and mixed it up

Edited March 1, 2019 by brokenbone

[ncc1701d]

37 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

a mars explorer went down that way cause a mathematician was insecure of his sexuality and mixed it up

I’m not sure if that’s the funniest thing I’ve read all year or not ????

[eezergood]

45 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

why would anyone use a mix of units ?

why use 0.8g as in metric & kg scale, and then flip in the same sentence and say per pound ?

a mars explorer went down that way cause a mathematician was insecure of his sexuality and mixed it up

I believe, using real logic, that because most pro bodybuilders (fitness style athletes) are measure in lbs BUT almost all protein supplements are measure/sold/marketed in grams. Further more I would expect that all scientific research is done in metric rather than imperial..... 

simple when you think of it......!

[papersource]

bought some Bayer Testoviron Depot today at the pharmacy before Sukhumvit soi 4 and before the police box (the smaller pharmacy next to the larger one which is closing. 

 

Small box of three Bayer Testoviron 250mg ampules cost 600 baht. these are made in pakistan by a Bayer owned subsidiary. To check on this you can google Bayer Pakistan and under the history tab you will see that they aquired this company in 2006 from Schering. 

 

The long wait is over which is good because I was just about to run out.  Here is a photo:

[Ks45672]

On 3/1/2019 at 12:32 PM, hyku1147 said:

Can't go wrong with boneless chicken breasts.

If your building yourself up, eat the skin too.. 

[catman20]

On 6/18/2018 at 7:22 AM, Bob12345 said:

With other words: if you are average by nature you should stay average the rest of your life.

 

Luckily medical science evolved: if you want to be "super-human" you can become "super-human".

But the choice to stay average or become above average is for everyone to make by themselves.

 

@catman20: i have the feeling that topic-starter is not a WWE star.

correct Bob12345 it was about 

Testosterone, steroids, etc.

[robblok]

1 hour ago, papersource said:

bought some Bayer Testoviron Depot today at the pharmacy before Sukhumvit soi 4 and before the police box (the smaller pharmacy next to the larger one which is closing. 

 

Small box of three Bayer Testoviron 250mg ampules cost 600 baht. these are made in pakistan by a Bayer owned subsidiary. To check on this you can google Bayer Pakistan and under the history tab you will see that they aquired this company in 2006 from Schering. 

 

The long wait is over which is good because I was just about to run out.  Here is a photo:

That price is not super bad that is 200 bt instead of 160-170 bt per ampule. Not to bad as you use one for a bit more then a week. 

[stud858]

17 minutes ago, robblok said:

That price is not super bad that is 200 bt instead of 160-170 bt per ampule. Not to bad as you use one for a bit more then a week. 

Is this available around Pattaya you think?

[robblok]

7 minutes ago, stud858 said:

Is this available around Pattaya you think?

I have no clue, I only know they offered me this in BKK but the price was higher when they offered it to me. I would buy it at this price. Its an increase in price but I trust Bayer.

[Ks45672]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

I have no clue, I only know they offered me this in BKK but the price was higher when they offered it to me. I would buy it at this price. Its an increase in price but I trust Bayer.

Bayer and the big brands are more likely to be counterfeited

 

I usually buy the Thai or Indian generics and always get the desired results so far

[robblok]

1 minute ago, Ks45672 said:

Bayer and the big brands are more likely to be counterfeited

 

I usually buy the Thai or Indian generics and always get the desired results so far

Yes they are but you can check if they are counterfeited. I think there is more of a risk with the generics then Bayer. I have used generics too with good results but perfer Bayer. 

 

I had a friend using generics and got a under-dosed version (you never know) that is why I prefer the brand names.

 

But its a personal choice of course. 

[eezergood]

those of you on TRT - what do you spend per month?

[stud858]

Just reporting back on my issue with cypionax .

I've given it another try and a month in I feel this time like it's starting to take affect.

So not sure I had a bad batch last time, or it was just my body not reacting , or just I needed time away, or whatever, but I'll keep going and reassess after a couple more months.

From last time it took around 3 months to get a stronger affect.

I take 200mg/ml vial a week. 10* @ 900 baht I think it was.

[robblok]

On 3/9/2019 at 1:27 PM, eezergood said:

those of you on TRT - what do you spend per month?

Depends on how much i pay for the vials.. but no more then 200 bt per week

[Ks45672]

On 3/11/2019 at 1:00 PM, robblok said:

Depends on how much i pay for the vials.. but no more then 200 bt per week

About $23 per 10ml vial (800ish) 

Used to be 250mg per ml but sometimes its  300mg so I take 0.8ml instead of 1ml 

 

Very economical 

 

 

[Ks45672]

What are the important tests to ask for when requesting lab work on trt administered at home? 

 

I used to know them but i maybe forgetting something useful

 

Total Test 

Free test

Estrogen 

Esterodil 

Lipids/hdl/ldl

Cholesterol etc

Prostate 

 

Are there any more? 

[Destiny1990]

4 hours ago, Ks45672 said:

What are the important tests to ask for when requesting lab work on trt administered at home? 

 

I used to know them but i maybe forgetting something useful

 

Total Test 

Free test

Estrogen 

Esterodil 

Lipids/hdl/ldl

Cholesterol etc

Prostate 

 

Are there any more? 

Vitamin D level

[robblok]

On 3/17/2019 at 10:29 AM, Ks45672 said:

What are the important tests to ask for when requesting lab work on trt administered at home? 

 

I used to know them but i maybe forgetting something useful

 

Total Test 

Free test

Estrogen 

Esterodil 

Lipids/hdl/ldl

Cholesterol etc

Prostate 

 

Are there any more? 

I think you got them all. That is what i do anyway.

[WaveHunter]

On 6/18/2018 at 3:39 AM, tropo said:

The answer is simple. Get a blood testosterone test. If you're in the normal range, stay away from it. If you're low, consider testosterone replacement theory (TRT) under the supervision of a doctor. Stay well away from any anabolic steroids, which are derivatives of testosterone. Those will put a heavy burden on your kidneys and liver, especially the oral types. Yes, you will build muscle, but at a cost to your health.

With all due respect, your advice is a bit flawed.  Let me explain.  Determining what is a "ideal or optimal" range vs what is the "normal" range are two different things entirely.  Normal ranges such as shown in the chart below contain people who are often below optimal ranges.  They are based on a simple cross sampling of the population.  So, what is a normal value is not the same as what is optimal.

 

Also, TRT does not necessarily put undue strain on liver and kidneys IF it is properly administered and monitored through blood tests.

 

That pretty much makes my point but I want to add details about my own experiences with TRT for anyone that might be interested, so here goes:

 

My Total Testosterone was at 392 ng/dl before treatment which was very low for my age range yet I still had problems getting an MD to put me on TRT.  They cited all sort of negative aspects of TRT (which turned out to be mostly unfounded).  Finally I found a good MD who understood the difference between "normal" and "optimal, and also understood the efficacy and safety of TRT if it was done properly.

 

After 3 months of TRT I was at around 800 ng/dl.  For nine months, my MD had me try different dosages.  Over subsequent dosage trials and blood tests, my Total Testosterone ranged from 600 to 1200.  Finally we dialed it in at 975 as optimal.  That might sound high, but everybody is different.  For me, 975 ng/dl felt optimal, and my blood panels have been fine at this level.  Still though, monitoring remains important.  

 

I was nervous as hell about it initially, considering what I had read about the negative health aspects of TRT (which actually turned out to be fairly unfounded if dosages are not ridiculous, and blood test are done regularly...see below).  I also admit that the thought of sticking myself with needles kind of freaked me out (yikes!!!).

 

I think the most important factor that made me proceed with it was that I found a really good doctor that really understood hormone replacement.  It's important to realize that most doctors do not understand TRT, and this is especially true of many of the ones who run TRT clinics!  Many of them are hucksters!!  STAY AWAY FROM THEM!  They are only in it for the money.  If you turn to YouTube to learn more about TRT, be VERY judicious about the source; there is a lot of dopey content that is not science based at all, especially ones posted by bodybuilders which are usually based on "Bro-science".  Find yourself a good MD, and google for trusted academic-based sources of information.  I mean, the internet can really be a cess pool LOL!!

 

Here's my personal takeaway on TRT.  First of all, it takes time to work and the results are subtle (but noticeably positive).  You won't notice any overnight changes.  It takes several months before you will notice any significant differences, and in fact, during the first weeks of therapy you may even feel less energetic, more tired, experience some bloating, and a lot of mildly negative effects that can be pretty discouraging, but these negative aspects are only temporary so you just need to suck it up for a while LOL.

 

During this first year of treatment I was fairly sedentary; very little exercise really.  I did make a conscious effort to start eating more wisely.  My body fat percentage dropped and lean mass increased noticeably (more than my diet would be responsible for, so I attribute it to TRT).  I am in my third year of TRT now, and I do exercise pretty strenuously (I'm really into road cycling; five days a week, 200km last week which is average for me now, and I workout with free weights 2-3 days a week in the gym).  BTW, if you are wanting to drop excess body fat FAST, there is no better exercise than cycling!

 

Regarding injections vs patches/creams vs pills vs pellets:  Pills are a SCAM; forget about it!  Patches and creams are very ineffective, messy, and can contaminate members of your family!  IMHO, the only effective treatment really is injection, but relax...it's really not as scary as you might think.  Contrary to what many people think, you do not have to inject into muscle.  TRT works fine by injecting into fat layers of the belly and glutes.  I inject into belly or glutes and use a tiny insulin syringe (26-27 gauge short needle).  It's referred to as sub-cutaneous (sub-Q) injections and is scientifically proven to be just as effective as deep muscle injections.  Equally important, it's painless, very easy and it also eliminates the possibility of bad things associated with muscle injection like hitting a vein or developing an abscess.

 

Injecting is very easy.  You break open a 1 mL one-use vial of testosterone and use an 18 gauge needle to draw the test out of the vial.  It is in a thick oil suspension which is why you need to draw using a wider 18 gauge needle.  Once drawn, you transfer your dosage amount (in my case 125 mg) inot an insulin syringe with a fine (27 gauge short needle).  27 gauge is just large enough for the oil to flow (takes about 15-20 seconds).  The remaining testosterone in the drawing syringe is carefully capped to avoid contamination and saved for next week's injection.  Naturally keeping things sterile is important.  Washing your hands and use of alcohol wipes does the job just fine.  I also use latex examination gloves even though it's probably over-kill.

 

There are four type of injectable testosterone but really only two that are appropriate for TRT :  

• Testosterone cypionate and Testosterone enanthate:  Both have the same functions and effects for all intents and purposes. The half lives are similar (8 days and 5 days respectively).  The main factor determining which one to use is which is available where you live; here in Thailand, it is enanthate.  In Thailand, no prescription is required, and it's actually very inexpensive.  Preferred (trusted) brand is Bayer but presently it is hard to find in Thailand because Bayer is temporarily not shipping while they re-do their distribution networks.  Other trusted brands available in Thai pharmacies are Rotexmedica, and Alpha Pharma.
• Testosterone propionate:  Half life is only 2 days and it's very expensive, and not really advisable for TRT.

• Testosterone undecanoate:  The big deal about undecanoate is its' long half life (18-24 days) so you only inject once every 12 weeks or so.  The drawback is it is outrageously expensive, hard to find outside of USA and Europe, and also the amount that is your system over time is not as stable as it would be with cypionate or enanthate IMO.

 

The most important thing about TRT is monitoring your blood panels.  I get blood tests every three months, although every six months is OK.  It's cheap to get blood tests here in Thailand so every 3 months is no big deal.  Of course you want to monitor Total and Free Test levels, but you also need to monitor estradiol (estrogen levels, since they can and will become elevated...not a big deal since you only need to take an aromatase inhibitor (quarter pill of anastrozole) to keep estradiol to acceptable levels.  Also, you need to track lipids for obvious reasons since Test can effect liver (in my case, my lipids always look fine).  You also need to track hematocrit since TRT can increase it, and if that happens you may need to donate some blood to bring it back down, but I've never had to do that.  BOTTOM LINE, periodic blood tests are important, and until you learn to interpret them results yourself, your doctor's interpretation of the tests are VERY important, especially for dialing in correct dosage.  Even though I can interpret the results now, I still forward them to my MD, and visit her for a check up twice a year.

 

Anyway, I just thought this reply might be helpful for any of you on the fence about doing TRT.  On the whole, I am very pleased I went ahead with it!  Happy to answer any question you might have, if I can ????

 

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

On 3/17/2019 at 10:29 AM, Ks45672 said:

What are the important tests to ask for when requesting lab work on trt administered at home? 

 

I used to know them but i maybe forgetting something useful

 

Total Test 

Free test

Estrogen 

Esterodil 

Lipids/hdl/ldl

Cholesterol etc

Prostate 

 

Are there any more? 

HEMATOCRIT...pretty important since it can rise pretty dramatically for some people on TRT and require you to donate blood to get it back down to normal levels.

[WaveHunter]

On 2/27/2019 at 10:29 AM, robblok said:

You lost me about how keto has a point about protein. Keto is not about high protein (it can have high protein) but its about low / no carb.

 

Its common knowledge that you need to be high in protein to keep from losing muscle. Also if you lose your weight too fast there is a big chance its muscle. Plus if you exercise while losing weight you hold on to muscle even better.

Just to chime in, too much dietary protein will kick you out of ketosis just as surely as too much carbohydrates; the reason is that excess dietary protein is actually converted to blood sugar through gluconeogenesis.  If you are in full ketosis, there is actually very little risk of significant muscle loss since high levels of ketones will assure abundant energy for the brain and freed fatty acids will provide abundant energy for other tissues.  It's only during the early phase of a fast when ketone bodies have not ramped up sufficiently that you can loose muscle, and since that only last for a few days, whatever actual muscle you loose, even on a prolonged fast (i.e.: 5 days) can be easily be regained within a week of being in the gym after your fast ends.  On a shorter fast (i.e.: 72 hours), almost no significant muscle will be lost because autophagy is sparing essential muscle in favor of "junky" protein.

Edited March 22, 2019 by WaveHunter

[faraday]

6 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Just to chime in, too much protein will kick you out of ketosis just as surely as too much carbohydrates; the reason is that excess protein is actually converted to blood sugar. 

That's a little bit simplistic; excess aminos can, but not often.