Request for information from Natwest bank

[NanLaew]

40 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

If the sending bank knows Thailand hasn't signed up to the agreement then why ****** send it? 

It is irrelevant that Thai banks aren't signatory. The request is for confirmation of a UK bank's customer's tax domicile from the UK (offshore) bank. This is to comply with US and EU (federal) laws and regulations and nothing to do with Thailand or any other foreign country where that UK bank customer may have pitched his tent.

 

Banks have to show compliance to regulating authorities and each bank sets about getting this customer info as economically as possible. It's typically outsourced or if run internally, staffed by temporary workers who are bereft of knowledge on the vagaries of international banking and non-resident status and are just there to facilitate this box-checking exercise.

 

Some banks are either further along on this pursuit of information than others or have thrown better resources at it. Anyone thinking that binning the first and/or second letters is sufficient and the banks will forget about it is simply delaying the obvious which will probably be the closure of the account.

[OJAS]

On 6/18/2018 at 11:38 AM, Aquaman2016 said:

There was a recent change to UK tax rules that meant all financial institutions had to write to their account holders requesting this information. If you have a live account and do not reply then this may cause problems with HMRC and/or your account may be closed.

So, as a result of this scattergun approach, those of us who submit annual tax returns to HMRC are, in effect, more or less being asked for the same info twice - through (1) a form provided by our UK banks, and then (2) the SA109 (non-residency) supplementary form as part of our annual tax returns. The one significant difference, though, is that, whereas the bank forms seek specific info on local tax identification numbers, the SA109 form does not include any requirement for this info to be provided in a tax return!

 

Belts and braces spring to mind, I think, when describing the overall HMRC approach.

Edited August 8, 2018 by OJAS

[khastan]

I got one of these these CRS forms this morning from the vile bureaucratic HSBC bank. The letter was dated 13th July and it told me to take the completed form into my local branch and in bold letters within 14 days of the date of this letter! The letter is unsigned and has no return address. In the FAQs it states to the question " What will happen if I don't return the documents you've asked for." Answer "If we don't receive the requested information in time we will consider you to be reportable to the tax authorities based on the information we hold. In addition to this failure to provide us with the documentation may result in the possible closure of existing accounts. I will add I am currently a Premier account holder and have had an account with the Midland HSBC for sixty plus years. It would appear to me that loyalty counts for nothing in this day and age.The crux of the matter is they are wanting a TIN number so does anybody know how to get one quickly.

[userabcd]

13 hours ago, khastan said:

I got one of these these CRS forms this morning from the vile bureaucratic HSBC bank. The letter was dated 13th July and it told me to take the completed form into my local branch and in bold letters within 14 days of the date of this letter! The letter is unsigned and has no return address. In the FAQs it states to the question " What will happen if I don't return the documents you've asked for." Answer "If we don't receive the requested information in time we will consider you to be reportable to the tax authorities based on the information we hold. In addition to this failure to provide us with the documentation may result in the possible closure of existing accounts. I will add I am currently a Premier account holder and have had an account with the Midland HSBC for sixty plus years. It would appear to me that loyalty counts for nothing in this day and age.The crux of the matter is they are wanting a TIN number so does anybody know how to get one quickly

 

Find the nearest tax office and ask for one. For me they issued one in 5 minutes after producing a copy of my passport and driving license.

Edited August 9, 2018 by userabcd

[topt]

7 hours ago, userabcd said:

Find the nearest tax office and ask for one. For me they issued one in 5 minutes after producing a copy of my passport and driving license.

Seems to depend on the specific tax office. Mine was alot more involved than that all be it some years ago.

21 hours ago, khastan said:

The crux of the matter is they are wanting a TIN number so does anybody know how to get one quickly.

Just tell them you have no tax to pay here and a Thai TIN is not mandatory so you are happy they report your activity to HMRC - give them your NI no. That should placate them unless you have something to hide from HMRC.........

[partington]

On 8/8/2018 at 7:49 AM, OJAS said:

So, as a result of this scattergun approach, those of us who submit annual tax returns to HMRC are, in effect, more or less being asked for the same info twice - through (1) a form provided by our UK banks, and then (2) the SA109 (non-residency) supplementary form as part of our annual tax returns. The one significant difference, though, is that, whereas the bank forms seek specific info on local tax identification numbers, the SA109 form does not include any requirement for this info to be provided in a tax return!

 

Belts and braces spring to mind, I think, when describing the overall HMRC approach.

 

You don't understand the purpose of this CRS requirement. It is nothing to do with your tax liability to HMRC, or the information on your annual UK tax return.

 

It is in order that HMRC can report any accounts you have in the UK to the other tax jurisdiction(s) that you  have declared you are a resident in. By the terms of the CRS it is HMRC's responsibility to tell other countries' tax authorities about your UK accounts, rather than the banks/brokerages themselves. So the banks tell HMRC you are tax resident in Thailand, and then HMRC tell Thailand about your accounts in the UK identifying you by the TIN you have declared on your CRS response form.

 

It is to avoid you evading tax in any  jurisdiction  other than the UK  that this information is being gathered. It is exactly the same as the reason why UK banks ask you if you are a US person. This is so they can report your accounts to the US, where the IRS can decide whether you owe them tax on your overseas accounts .

 

This is why it IS significant that Thailand has not signed up to  the CRS: it is a futile waste of time for banks to gather information about Thai tax residency, in order to report it the HMRC (= becoming a reportable person ) because HMRC cannot report it automatically to the Thai tax authorities, because there is no CRS agreement signed with Thailand!  The point of the CRS is that for signatory countries the information is automatically transferred between their tax authorities without having to be specially requested.

 

On the other hand if you declared a tax residence in say, Cyprus, then HMRC can report your account activities in the UK to Cyprus, so that Cyprus can see whether you are hiding all your Cypriot stock exchange profits in an offshore (=UK) account without reporting them!

 

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by partington

[VBF]

And just "FYI" here is a list of countries signed up to CRS - does not include Thailand.

 

https://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/about-automatic-exchange/CbC-MCAA-Signatories.pdf 

 

i do find it somewhat amusing that Nigeria has signed up to it though.....?

Edited August 9, 2018 by VBF

[khastan]

Firstly thanks everyone for all your comments.

In response to topt . I have nothing to hide. My total annual income is well below the threshold of paying tax in the UK. However judging from the tone of the demand received from HSBC your suggestion I doubt will suffice.
Furthermore this demand for a TIN number was generated by the instruction from me to reinvest on a 5 year fixed rate savings bond that had recently just expired and I foolishly assumed this would be a simple matter.

The part that worries me most is the possible threat of closure of my accounts. I have no UK address so would not be able to open another account with another bank in the UK

Edited August 10, 2018 by khastan
added text

[lungbing]

I am well past retirement age and have no income in Thailand.  Following a request from my UK bank when I requested a number from the tax office in amphur Khon Kaen they refused as I didn't need it and my wife says they were very rude about it and used low-class words to me.

[khastan]

Interesting lungbing I too are well past retirement age and have no income in Thailand. What happened when you informed your bank that you could not supply a Tin number.

[OJAS]

On 8/9/2018 at 7:45 PM, partington said:

By the terms of the CRS it is HMRC's responsibility to tell other countries' tax authorities about your UK accounts, rather than the banks/brokerages themselves.

In that case, then, I would have thought that HMRC should - in theory at any rate - be able to achieve a more comprehensive coverage of relevant accounts by requiring all non-residents to submit tax returns (and not just those who, amongst other things, derive rental income from property which they own in the UK like myself) - with the SA109 supplementary form expanded as necessary to cover UK account details (at present there is only provision for accounts to which any tax refunds are to be credited to be reported).

 

In particular, it seems to me that another fundamental flaw with the present procedures (in addition to the points which you have made) is that those who have had their UK accounts arbitrarily (or otherwise) closed by their (now former) banks could be slipping under the radar. Although, as I understand from my own UK bank, these CRS forms are being issued to former (as well as existing) account holders, what possible sanctions can banks take against ex-account holders who refuse to play ball?

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by OJAS

[OJAS]

11 hours ago, khastan said:

Firstly thanks everyone for all your comments.

In response to topt . I have nothing to hide. My total annual income is well below the threshold of paying tax in the UK. However judging from the tone of the demand received from HSBC your suggestion I doubt will suffice.
Furthermore this demand for a TIN number was generated by the instruction from me to reinvest on a 5 year fixed rate savings bond that had recently just expired and I foolishly assumed this would be a simple matter.

The part that worries me most is the possible threat of closure of my accounts. I have no UK address so would not be able to open another account with another bank in the UK

Do you submit tax returns to HMRC? If you do, you might like to try quoting your 10-digit UTR number in lieu of a TIN, as I did in the form which I supplied to my UK bank a few months ago. To date this has not generated any adverse repercussions.

[khastan]

No in 11 years living here never been asked to submit a tax return. Has I have already said my total yearly income is below the current UK tax threshold for paying tax.

[dabhand]

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 7:02 AM, khastan said:

Firstly thanks everyone for all your comments.

In response to topt . I have nothing to hide. My total annual income is well below the threshold of paying tax in the UK. However judging from the tone of the demand received from HSBC your suggestion I doubt will suffice.
Furthermore this demand for a TIN number was generated by the instruction from me to reinvest on a 5 year fixed rate savings bond that had recently just expired and I foolishly assumed this would be a simple matter.

The part that worries me most is the possible threat of closure of my accounts. I have no UK address so would not be able to open another account with another bank in the UK

On the UK account closure issue, maybe worth looking at Transferwise who offer a 'borderless' UK bank account. No frills but has Fx conversion options. I opened one last year using a Thai address and just needed to give the usual ID and address verifications. Very simple process.

 

Concerning the TIN matter. I received a similar request last year from two UK banks that I have accounts with (Nationwide + Barclays, Jersey). I simply responded that, as I do not work in Thailand, I have no need for a TIN. No further contact from them. So seems that has been accepted by both but not to say that future requests won't be forthcoming, either when further box ticking exercises are undertaken or should Thailand actually join the CRS reporting circus.  However, as you note, your savings bond issue has possibly created the problem as that income might need to be seen as being reported in a tax jurisdiction. Not having a Thai TIN may therefore not be considered as acceptable . Who knows?!!      

 

[khastan]

Many thanks dabhand for your helpful post.

With regard to how you responded to the initial requests for a TIN I think my reply is going to be the following.

"I am retired 74 year old and do not work. Furthermore I derive no income whatsoever from Thailand so I have no need for a TIN."

What do you think?

[topt]

4 hours ago, khastan said:

Many thanks dabhand for your helpful post.

With regard to how you responded to the initial requests for a TIN I think my reply is going to be the following.

"I am retired 74 year old and do not work. Furthermore I derive no income whatsoever from Thailand so I have no need for a TIN."

What do you think?

Why not embellish a little and say that as you do not need a TIN your local Revenue office won't give you one.........and add your NI number and or UTR as @dabhand suggests.