how to attract clients for purchase or rent of condos

[moontang]

most are paid for with cash, and that is certainly a stabilizing factor.  It wasn't until the banks had lots of REO , that prices really fell in the US.  I have checked the bank sites here a hundred times, and it is mostly some toxic properties from 1998, and in some cases, they are trying to sell hundreds of units in a mostly abandoned building.  Even those eventually get swallowed up.  But, like the above example, show me one bank owned property here, that represents good value.  You could do better in the condo lobby.

Edited June 24, 2018 by moontang

[Pattaya46]

17 hours ago, kenk24 said:

Who said anything about bitcoin?

Try something more traditional that has been around for longer... like the stock market... 

What a good idea... 

The stock market is down more than 10% already since January...

[xylophone]

53 minutes ago, newnative said:

But, on the plus side, he did sell it.  And, he saved on rent for 5 years.  10,000 baht a month rent for 5 years would have cost 600,000 baht.  

Not the case if you read my post #43, you will see why not.

[Pattaya46]

19 hours ago, xylophone said:

Far too many on the market with new ones going up "almost daily" so older ones just don't sell and the only way to sell is to accept far less than one paid for it.

 

That may be true if your condo is one of the too many shoeboxes, or is just an average unit without any view, but decent condos, even old, still sell well with a gain 

 

I think I am in good situation to say that, as I just sold last month a condo that I owned 10 years in a now 25yo condominium in Pattaya. I sold it about 30% over the price I paid it.

Please note that it was my home during this time, so making a profit was not really important to me when I bought it. What was important was its location, its very nice sea view and the fact the Euro was very strong (53 B/€, now 38)

New built condos mostly don't have such good location and are far far more expensive, bringing lot of buyers to look for older ones.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Pattaya46

[xylophone]

3 hours ago, KittenKong said:

Certainly no property that I have ever owned outside of Thailand has ever lost value, and in fact it all increased in value by a minimum of 8% per year on average. Thai property is completely different.

And that's the crux of the matter.............

 

Thailand is completely different with regards to the resale of property, and this is not helped by the fact that there is no way of "measuring" property prices and what they should and shouldn't be worth, or indeed any meaningful Govt valuation as a basis.

 

In Auckland, for example, house prices have doubled, on average, every 7.2 years since 1960, so property has been a great investment for people. I suspect that this applies to many/most other countries in the "Western world".

 

Here, the general consensus among some posters is that you should not expect to get back that which you paid for your property, in fact you should expect to get back a lot less. There are those people who make a living out of flipping properties and in order for that to work, it would appear that they have to buy low from somebody who really does want to sell and will accept a lot less than they paid for the property, in order to allow it to be on sold.

 

I have nothing against these folks, so no need for adverse feedback on this point as far as I'm concerned, however my main point is that to have to accept a lower price than that which you paid for a property in the first place, when costs/prices all around you are increasing means that something is amiss here with property/property prices...……..AND perhaps on every property site, there should be writ large: "In most cases you should expect to lose money on your property here in Thailand when you try to resell it".

 

 

 

 

 

[murraynz]

several  realistic replies have already been given,its common sense realy...

sure ,there is an over-supply of new condos in some areas, but surely it must be obvious, there is something wrong if no renters or buyers for several years ???  bad area or wrongly priced..

an agent will not actively market a property, if it is either of the above..

why do you buy more than one, if you cant even find a renter ??

sounds like a good way to loose money.

 

[baansgr]

17 hours ago, rott said:

Ripley you came on asking for advice but giving no info on which to base said advice. So you get the.only possible comment "lower your price", which I think you could have come up with yourself. Now you reluctantly concede that.the condos are in Jomtien.

But are you already asking a low price? Or high? Or median? How many viewngs? Any solid bids? Are they in foreigner name? If it is Baan Suan Lalana let me know.

I did send you a pm but you didn't reply.  My friend  has a few for sale in BAAN Suan Lalana 

[janclaes47]

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

 

That may be true if your condo is one of the too many shoeboxes, or is just an average unit without any view, but decent condos, even old, still sell well with a gain 

 

I think I am in good situation to say that, as I just sold last month a condo that I owned 10 years in a now 25yo condominium in Pattaya. I sold it about 30% over the price I paid it.

Please note that it was my home during this time, so making a profit was not really important to me when I bought it. What was important was its location, its very nice sea view and the fact the Euro was very strong (53 B/€, now 38)

New built condos mostly don't have such good location and are far far more expensive, bringing lot of buyers to look for older ones.

So did you make a 30% profit in Thai Baht or in Euro?

 

However I think it's more easy to make a profit on a condo purchased 10 years ago, than one purchased in the past 5 years.

 

Prices were a bit different back then.

Edited June 24, 2018 by janclaes47

[newnative]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

Not the case if you read my post #43, you will see why not.

Yeah, I saw that after I posted.  Still, he didn't do too badly considering he apparently had no idea what he was doing and where he would be doing it.

[InMyShadow]

Why the OP is asking for advice on TV Pattaya thread is beyond me. 

Take a look around you OP. Nearly all desperate pensioners offering advice on something they have never experienced.. Home ownership 

 

 

 

As mentioned keep dropping 

[Pattaya46]

53 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

So did you make a 30% profit in Thai Baht or in Euro? //

 

30% in Thai Baht  (sale_price/buy_price    minus 1.5% taxes)

+ 40% for the Euro rate (53/37   minus bank transfer cost)

[xylophone]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

Yeah, I saw that after I posted.  Still, he didn't do too badly considering he apparently had no idea what he was doing and where he would be doing it.

Irrespective of that I don't think he ever considered that he would lose money when he bought it...…….in a prime, upmarket location, surrounded by impressive houses and villas, all with a great name.

 

Having said that, if he didn't really care too much about it then som nam na!

Edited June 24, 2018 by xylophone

[watcharacters]

On 6/22/2018 at 1:55 PM, scubascuba3 said:

On 6/22/2018 at 1:50 PM, Peterw42 said:

Thats just seeing what other unrealistic sellers are asking, often not much relevance to the actual sales prices.
My condo block properties regularly sell for around 1.5 million baht, people have the same condos listed for 3 million baht, because the guy next door is asking 3m.
 
There is no real actual sales data.

Yes i know, but if all the others are advertised as 3m, no point having yours at 4m for example. People know prices are inflated, better to price which gets a bite maybe 2.5m

Scuba,  I'm not arguing with you.    What it is in Thailand  for good or bad is  simply what it is.

But you tend to gloss 0ver an important matter.   Peter said  "there is not actual sales data"   and that's highly important  if a person is to be allowed to make an intelligent  purchase decision.   But as I said it is what it is and I won't be stressing over it.

 

On 6/22/2018 at 1:57 PM, moontang said:

and many understate sales price to minimize pain at land office...but within some of these large complexes, it is fairly easy to get comps.  And if you see what they are renting for, you can get a better idea of value.  I wouldn't rent to a Thai, but they will buy.

 

Pattaya might be the biggest buyers market in the country, with many taking losses...you can't base price on what you paid or the exchange rate.  Exchange rates can make it better to sell or buy at times, but price is still relative to other recent sales.

Edited

moontang it would be helpful if you would back up your claim with some verifiable links and information.   "but within some of these large complexes, it is fairly easy to get comps."      Please  let us know how you can easily get comps.  Rent is certainly not a   guaranteed method of determining the   fair market price of a property.

 

I wonder how you can determine   outside   of the bar scene how  "Pattaya might be the biggest buyers market in the country, with many taking losses" 

Again can you offer any insight as to how you come up with that claim on TVF?"    No barstool links please.    

 

TIA

 

Edited June 24, 2018 by watcharacters

[1FinickyOne]

4 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

What a good idea... 

The stock market is down more than 10% already since January...

First: The S&P opened the year at 2695 and yesterday closed at 2754... but if you calculate that as a 10% loss, the stock market is surely not for you...

 

second - stocks are a long term investment - - just pull up a 50 year chart and see what the general direction is.. 

 

3rd - use your own good judgment - or lack thereof.. 

[newnative]

3 hours ago, xylophone said:

And that's the crux of the matter.............

 

Thailand is completely different with regards to the resale of property, and this is not helped by the fact that there is no way of "measuring" property prices and what they should and shouldn't be worth, or indeed any meaningful Govt valuation as a basis.

 

In Auckland, for example, house prices have doubled, on average, every 7.2 years since 1960, so property has been a great investment for people. I suspect that this applies to many/most other countries in the "Western world".

 

Here, the general consensus among some posters is that you should not expect to get back that which you paid for your property, in fact you should expect to get back a lot less. There are those people who make a living out of flipping properties and in order for that to work, it would appear that they have to buy low from somebody who really does want to sell and will accept a lot less than they paid for the property, in order to allow it to be on sold.

 

I have nothing against these folks, so no need for adverse feedback on this point as far as I'm concerned, however my main point is that to have to accept a lower price than that which you paid for a property in the first place, when costs/prices all around you are increasing means that something is amiss here with property/property prices...……..AND perhaps on every property site, there should be writ large: "In most cases you should expect to lose money on your property here in Thailand when you try to resell it".

 

 

 

 

 

    As sometime flippers,  buying a fire sale bargain from a seller in financial distress might be the logical way to go but that has not been how we have done it so far.  We have bought 17 condos and still own 2.  We bought 2 from a bank, 1 from a Bangkok company that had used the Pattaya condo as a getaway place for some of its employees, and 1 condo shell from an individual not in financial difficulty who made a profit on the sale.  All the rest were bought new from developers, some off-plan and some after construction was finished. 

[Pattaya46]

12 minutes ago, kenk24 said:

First: The S&P opened the year at 2695 and yesterday closed at 2754... but if you calculate that as a 10% loss, the stock market is surely not for you...

What has the S&P to do with Thailand? Why would members be interested by a stock market in a foreign country? 

The SET index (Stock Exchange of Thailand) was at 1'839 points in January and is now at 1'635 points, so a fall of about 11.1% ... conformed to the "more than 10%" that I wrote above.

[scubascuba3]

What has the S&P to do with Thailand? Why would members be interested by a stock market in a foreign country? 
The SET index (Stock Exchange of Thailand) was at 1'839 points in January and is now at 1'635 points, so a fall of about 11.1% ... conformed to the "more than 10%" that I wrote above.

Most people are probably invested in non Thai shares, or should be

[JAZZDOG]

The time to ask these questions was before you bought. Several questions before you buy.

- Am I buying long term or as a flip/investment

- How much appreciation can I expect

- How much REO can I expect as a rental

- Future supply and demand

- Is there anything that makes my condo unique

If you are buying a condo as an investment go elsewhere, very little appreciation as they are going up as fast as they can build, higher, better features. Everyone prefers new over used here. There is no way you will make over 4% long term, probably less.

 

If you are buying to rent out same as above. You are better renting and let your money keep working elsewhere and be FREE likely paying your expenses in LOS plus a little to put back to work.

 

Only way to make money is off-construction on the right project/builder selling at the correct moment. Still risk and your money is in jail for a set period of time.

 

The OPs post plays out over and over in Thailand because when he bought he should have been in a sellers mind set. Do that and you will be much more diligent making decisions. Many people on here will disagree to save face full well knowing that got had buying a condo

[moontang]

2 hours ago, watcharacters said:

Scuba,  I'm not arguing with you.    What it is in Thailand  for good or bad is  simply what it is.

But you tend to gloss 0ver an important matter.   Peter said  "there is not actual sales data"   and that's highly important  if a person is to be allowed to make an intelligent  purchase decision.   But as I said it is what it is and I won't be stressing over it.

 

moontang it would be helpful if you would back up your claim with some verifiable links and information.   "but within some of these large complexes, it is fairly easy to get comps."      Please  let us know how you can easily get comps.  Rent is certainly not a   guaranteed method of determining the   fair market price of a property.

 

I wonder how you can determine   outside   of the bar scene how  "Pattaya might be the biggest buyers market in the country, with many taking losses" 

Again can you offer any insight as to how you come up with that claim on TVF?"    No barstool links please.    

 

TIA

 

go to DDproperty or bahtsold...search condos under one million...plain as day...most will be in Patts, some are relatively new.  Many condos have a bulletin board listing...as much as the front office would like to have their noses in it, they would be spending a lot of time on that, and not doing their jobs.  Smaller complexes can have a tighter reign on sales listings.  16 times annual  rent is average sales price for Thailand...some high value areas like Sathorn might be closer to 33.  Some moobaans in less desirable locations might be as low as 8.  Condos will have a narrower range.  Just closed my tenth purchase...sellers have included everyone from Deutche Bank to HUD to the deceased....Renting sucks, but yes it can be the best option.

Edited June 24, 2018 by moontang

[JAZZDOG]

On ‎6‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 2:44 PM, baansgr said:

So in theory he has managed to live in a condo for less than 1,650 Baht a month the past 5 years. Yes there are maintenance fees etc but that would be anywhere he lived. Good example that ownership wins over renting.

That makes utterly no sense. He ties up 1.5M on a condo renting for 6K/month, maybe? On the credit side he stayed in a condo would have cost him 360K/5yrs

And on the debit side he lost 100K, 3%CC,Condo fees, time selling  100K+

So his upside was 260K on 1.5M locked up for 5 years or 3%/yr

 

You left out the other half of the equation. If he had invested his money overseas at end of 5 years he would have made close to  3/4 million plus the hundred he lost plus closing costs plus condo fees. A condo in that price range can be rented for 6000/month and he would be free to move anytime rather than stressing years to sell a condo just like dozens of others in the same building. And after 5 years he would move out with his initial investment plus 463,500 minimum. Your math just totally ignores the opportunity cost of having your money in jail. In your example he is just renting back to himself??

 

Rent over 5 years @ 6K/month                           360,000

Income 5 years @ 8% on 1.5M                            723,500

Money lost on sale                                                100,000

This does not count 3% CC or condo fees or time spent marketing

[baansgr]

9 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

That makes utterly no sense. He ties up 1.5M on a condo renting for 6K/month, maybe? On the credit side he stayed in a condo would have cost him 360K/5yrs

And on the debit side he lost 100K, 3%CC,Condo fees, time selling  100K+

So his upside was 260K on 1.5M locked up for 5 years or 3%/yr

 

You left out the other half of the equation. If he had invested his money overseas at end of 5 years he would have made close to  3/4 million plus the hundred he lost plus closing costs plus condo fees. A condo in that price range can be rented for 6000/month and he would be free to move anytime rather than stressing years to sell a condo just like dozens of others in the same building. And after 5 years he would move out with his initial investment plus 463,500 minimum. Your math just totally ignores the opportunity cost of having your money in jail. In your example he is just renting back to himself??

 

Rent over 5 years @ 6K/month                           360,000

Income 5 years @ 8% on 1.5M                            723,500

Money lost on sale                                                100,000

This does not count 3% CC or condo fees or time spent marketing

Show me an 8% risk free environment, impossible. And probably the condo rent would have been more but as was explained it was only used as a 2nd home.

[JAZZDOG]

13 hours ago, English Engineer said:

Many people seem to price on the basis of what they paid and even add a margin. We just sold our house but I used the price paid less the likely rental we would have paid. On that basis we just broke even. It sold in less than 3 months. I have to say luck does come in.

I must be missing something here. Why would you not rent in the first place then invest your money most likely yielding twice the amount of the rent you pay and be free to move when you wish not stressed over trying to sell.

[JAZZDOG]

2 minutes ago, baansgr said:

Show me an 8% risk free environment, impossible. And probably the condo rent would have been more but as was explained it was only used as a 2nd home.

A property bought in many other locations would produce well in excess of 8% appreciation and rent income combined. Do you actually believe a condo investment in a saturated market creating ultra cheap rents that depreciates 7% over 5 years located in a country with an unstable government whose policies shift like the breeze is risk free, nonsense!  The opportunity cost of a condo in LOS is huge but if your singular logic makes you feel better about your investment so be it.

The S&P 500 has doubled in the last 5 years . 

[baansgr]

4 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

A property bought in many other locations would produce well in excess of 8% appreciation and rent income combined. Do you actually believe a condo investment in a saturated market creating ultra cheap rents that depreciates 7% over 5 years located in a country with an unstable government whose policies shift like the breeze is risk free, nonsense!  The opportunity cost of a condo in LOS is huge but if your singular logic makes you feel better about your investment so be it.

The S&P 500 has doubled in the last 5 years . 

The issue is as with myself  also,  the condo was bought  as a home,  not an investment. Also where in UK or US would  you be able to by a condo for US$45k. Most buy to let's in UK now are returning less than 5% gross and property  prices declining.

[moontang]

you can make arguments for renting, but the rent cheerleaders were saying the same thing in Vegas, when prices dropped 75%+....it was easy money.  Kind of like those, who get a liar letter every year at the Embassy....they will always say it is the best move, even though it is illegal...besides, they didn't or won t do it at 40 or 50 TH B to the Dollar, either.  And of course, talking about that day merely two years ago when the GBP dropped 20% in a day seems to be more taboo than them admitting their date turned out to be a dude.  

[JAZZDOG]

13 hours ago, newnative said:

       So, if I am reading your post correctly, your condos are on low floors, have limited views, and have not been renovated.   As someone who buys condos in Thailand, that's not sounding very appealing.  Being on the market for several years with no buyers points to possibly unrealistic pricing of a not-so-attractive product.   If possible, check other low floor condos in your project to get some idea of pricing, then maybe deduct some from those prices since yours are not renovated.

     You mention you have the condos listed with 4 agents.  That's not nearly enough.  There is no MLS in Thailand so you need to list with as many agencies as you can.  Start with the agencies closest to your condo and work out from there.  Ask the agents for pricing help and maybe take an average of what they think the price should be.  List the condos, yourself, on Craigslist, Hipflat, and any other free websites, with good photos.  Consider offering an agent bonus on top of the commission.  When your condo is nothing special, the bonus could be an incentive for an agent to take a buyer to your nothing special condo rather than the nothing special condo for sale a few doors down.

     As an occasional flipper, I don't mind when a condo is unrenovated because I usually hate most renovations and I would rather tear out old, bad decoration rather than new, bad decoration.  However, and it's a big however, I am an exception and I think most buyers will prefer a condo that has been fixed up to some degree rather than one that requires them to do all the work. 

      So, maybe consider fixing the condos up and making them more attractive.  If you are selling more than one condo you might leave one unrenovated, renovate one, and see how the sales go.  You also mentioned renting the condos.  If that is also in the picture as an option then you definitely need to do some work to make the condos attractive for a renter.  

       I get top prices with the condos that I flip because I start with a high floor condo with a great seaview in an excellent location and then I make it one of a kind and even more special.  Low floor condos with no view will usually not command high prices unless the location is really outstanding but there are some things you can do to help your cause, renovated or unrenovated.  Make sure the condos are always neat and clean with no clutter.  Fix anything that is broken.  Take a fresh look at how the furniture is arranged.  Make sure the condos are always 'ready for their closeup' and available for viewing when an agent calls with a buyer.  Good luck!

 

You are not passively investing you are a remodeling contractor working on your own properties. I have been a Florida GC for 35 years and what you describe can result in 100% upside in many cases. Same for well placed spec houses. Difference it is work not to be compared to most folks here on TV. Besides that it is a slippery slope if you aren't contracting out 100% and doing this "investing" on a repetitive basis. You are acting as a business however you paint it. Even if you fly under a limited company you cant be director because signing docs is "work". One disgruntled Thai worker, vendor, buyer or bitter neighbor drops a dime and the labor boys show up, bye, bye. There is considerable risk involved beyond the risk which Thailand brings to the table.

[JAZZDOG]

7 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

What has the S&P to do with Thailand? Why would members be interested by a stock market in a foreign country? 

47 minutes ago, baansgr said:

The issue is as with myself  also,  the condo was bought  as a home,  not an investment. Also where in UK or US would  you be able to by a condo for US$45k. Most buy to let's in UK now are returning less than 5% gross and property  prices declining.

 

49 minutes ago, baansgr said:

The issue is as with myself  also,  the condo was bought  as a home,  not an investment. Also where in UK or US would  you be able to by a condo for US$45k. Most buy to let's in UK now are returning less than 5% gross and property  prices declining.

Who is his right mind is investing in the UK?

 

[JAZZDOG]

1 hour ago, moontang said:

you can make arguments for renting, but the rent cheerleaders were saying the same thing in Vegas, when prices dropped 75%+....it was easy money.  Kind of like those, who get a liar letter every year at the Embassy....they will always say it is the best move, even though it is illegal...besides, they didn't or won t do it at 40 or 50 TH B to the Dollar, either.  And of course, talking about that day merely two years ago when the GBP dropped 20% in a day seems to be more taboo than them admitting their date turned out to be a dude.  

Google translate to English please

[moontang]

56 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

You are not passively investing you are a remodeling contractor working on your own properties. I have been a Florida GC for 35 years and what you describe can result in 100% upside in many cases. Same for well placed spec houses. Difference it is work not to be compared to most folks here on TV. Besides that it is a slippery slope if you aren't contracting out 100% and doing this "investing" on a repetitive basis. You are acting as a business however you paint it. Even if you fly under a limited company you cant be director because signing docs is "work". One disgruntled Thai worker, vendor, buyer or bitter neighbor drops a dime and the labor boys show up, bye, bye. There is considerable risk involved beyond the risk which Thailand brings to the table.

Florida has more criminals than Thailand...quite an accomplishment.  A friend set up a company and built 13 houses in HH..he took a few lumps, but never had trouble with WP.  14 years...

[JAZZDOG]

10 minutes ago, moontang said:

Florida has more criminals than Thailand...quite an accomplishment.  A friend set up a company and built 13 houses in HH..he took a few lumps, but never had trouble with WP.  14 years...

But Thailand has more inmates!

So what exactly is your point? LOS is lawless so come be a criminal. If I don't get caught in 14 years it must be OK. No great wonder why LOS is making it hard on Farang. In Florida you would be shut down before your shovel hit the ground. I was taught if you're a guest you play by house rules. If not you lack respect and/or education. Take your pick.