Paying for a condo & sending paymet to sellers British account

[chocolatesound1]

Hi all,

 

In the process of buying a Thai condo, I'm and American and the seller is British. We are now both in our home countries. The agent suggested that the seller might like me to pay for some or all of the condo by sending my USD to the sellers Brit account.

Is this even possible? As far as I know the land dept. needs to see a bank transfer... and wouldn't that create a problem for me when I sell the condo and try to get the money out of Thailand?

Also, is the purchaser usually responsible for having and paying for the Purchase/Sale contract to be made?

Sorry, this is my first condo purchase and I've looked online but can't find anything really relating to this.

 

Thanks

[KittenKong]

If an agent is involved then they should take care of the contract and the cost should be included in their fee which is paid by the vendor.

The Land Office will want to see proof of incoming foreign funds into your bank account here, and conversion to Baht, to the declared sale value of the condo or the appraised value, whichever is the higher. So anything paid abroad could not count towards that.

I would be very wary of this proposed arrangement as it sounds like a possible scam. In fact I dont like the sound of this agent at all, though to be fair I never like the sound of agents in Thailand.

Also watch out for possible scams relating to the payment of the transfer fees and taxes. In theory most of these are the vendors responsibility, though the idea of a 50/50 split is frequently bandied about by vendors and agents as though it was normal. The whole thing is negotiable though.

This gives you an idea:

https://www.samuiforsale.com/real-estate/condominium-transfer-tax-and-fees.html

I hope you got a big discount on the average asking price of similar condos, as asking prices are usually highly fanciful here.

[chocolatesound1]

16 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

If an agent is involved then they should take care of the contract and the cost should be included in their fee which is paid by the vendor.

The Land Office will want to see proof of incoming foreign funds into your bank account here, and conversion to Baht, to the declared sale value of the condo or the appraised value, whichever is the higher. So anything paid abroad could not count towards that.

I would be very wary of this proposed arrangement as it sounds like a possible scam. In fact I dont like the sound of this agent at all, though to be fair I never like the sound of agents in Thailand.

Also watch out for possible scams relating to the payment of the transfer fees and taxes. In theory most of these are the vendors responsibility, though the idea of a 50/50 split is frequently bandied about by vendors and agents as though it was normal. The whole thing is negotiable though.

This gives you an idea:

https://www.samuiforsale.com/real-estate/condominium-transfer-tax-and-fees.html

I hope you got a big discount on the average asking price of similar condos, as asking prices are usually highly fanciful here.

Thanks, yeah I've been wondering about him...Haha..I was questioning him before about the tax & fee split, I sent the exact same link to him and  I did get the "50/50 is normal when transferring". In that link it says there's no fixed rule so I wasn't sure.

When asked about the purchase contract he said that the next step was for my lawyer to draw up the purchase and sales agreement. I've been waiting to hear back from my lawyer who completed due diligence & said things were fine, I asked about the money transfer and purchase agreement but she hasn't replied in almost a week but I figured she'll probably say "yes" that she should make the agreement so she can get a bigger fee. I just paid for Due Diligence and for the transfer.

Any advice on how to transfer the money there without having a Thai Bank account? I planned on doing a POA since I won't be able to get there for a couple of months. As you know I wasn't able to get a bank account without a work permit the last time I was there. I've asked her but again, still on hold waiting for an answer.

 

Thanks 

 

[KittenKong]

There is no rule about the transfer costs and taxes: they just have to be paid and the Land Office doesnt care who does it. But as I mentioned, vendors/agents here will try the 50/50 thing on if they can. Up to you to negotiate it down.

Most buyers here dont bother with a lawyer. There is nothing much for them to check: you can look at the building finances and committee procedures yourself, the Land Office wont process the sale if there are debts or liens on the property, a motorway probably wont be planned through your condo, many important things cant be checked at all, and the lawyer wont take responsibility for what they check anyway. So that's probably money down the drain. In the same way there is no real need for an advance contract either as the money changes hands at the time of the transfer and not before. If the transfer doesnt happen then you dont need to pay the money.

I dont see how you can transfer the money without a Thai bank account. I would never send large sums of money to someone else's account here under any circumstances.

It is possible to get a bank account here and you should keep trying other branches of other banks until you succeed. Perhaps getting a longer visa would help?

As for POAs: there will be snow on Pattaya beach before I would give anyone in Thailand the right to sign in my name. Some may think I am paranoid or stupid, but at least that makes me a paranoid idiot who still has all his own money in his own bank accounts. I know many apparently smarter and nicer people here who have lost much or even everything that way. I will never be one of them, and if the price for that is that people whom I dont like or trust think of me as a miserable old git, so be it.

[OneZero]

With respect to the Land Office charges you may want to educate yourself with the following thread:

 

 

[chocolatesound1]

11 hours ago, KittenKong said:

There is no rule about the transfer costs and taxes: they just have to be paid and the Land Office doesnt care who does it. But as I mentioned, vendors/agents here will try the 50/50 thing on if they can. Up to you to negotiate it down.

Most buyers here dont bother with a lawyer. There is nothing much for them to check: you can look at the building finances and committee procedures yourself, the Land Office wont process the sale if there are debts or liens on the property, a motorway probably wont be planned through your condo, many important things cant be checked at all, and the lawyer wont take responsibility for what they check anyway. So that's probably money down the drain. In the same way there is no real need for an advance contract either as the money changes hands at the time of the transfer and not before. If the transfer doesnt happen then you dont need to pay the money.

I dont see how you can transfer the money without a Thai bank account. I would never send large sums of money to someone else's account here under any circumstances.

It is possible to get a bank account here and you should keep trying other branches of other banks until you succeed. Perhaps getting a longer visa would help?

As for POAs: there will be snow on Pattaya beach before I would give anyone in Thailand the right to sign in my name. Some may think I am paranoid or stupid, but at least that makes me a paranoid idiot who still has all his own money in his own bank accounts. I know many apparently smarter and nicer people here who have lost much or even everything that way. I will never be one of them, and if the price for that is that people whom I dont like or trust think of me as a miserable old git, so be it.

Haha.. can't blame you for that. Thanks for the advice and info!

[chocolatesound1]

1 hour ago, OneZero said:

With respect to the Land Office charges you may want to educate yourself with the following thread:

 

 

Thanks, this helps a lot. Just about to begin the negotiations and it's good to understand before I go into it.

[inThailand]

The chances are you the only one who even made an offer on this condo. Being out of town I would write a sales contract and state you will pay After the title deed has been transferred to you. If they don't like it find another condo from the 100,000+ condos that are for sale.

[simoh1490]

What ever you do, do not send funds for the condo. purchase to the sellers overseas account, that is massively high risk I think. The Land Office will want to have proof that the funds you used to buy the condo came from outside Thailand, if they don't have that they may not allow the purchase to proceed and even if they did, you wouldn't be able to export those funds again when you went to sell the unit.

 

If it were me it would be mandatory that I attended the Land Office to complete the purchase, if the seller wants to use a POA that's up to him, as a buyer I would not, under almost any circumstances.

[shaurene]

I would listen to KittenKong very good advice. Sounds like a scam to me, how do you know it is his agent, anyone in Thailand can get a copy document very easy for anything even government departments. 

It would all be best if you did it through a good lawyer who knows the property business ect. And get a flight over here for a week or so and do it here. Open a bank account and send your money to your account. Thailand is close to number one in scams.

i live in Khon Kaen for 10 years and married for 10. If you want a very good lawyer my wife and I are very good friends of her and her Australian PHD doctor. She also does legal work fot the Governmant. I can give you her details.  I would trust them with my life.

Do NOT send the money. As KittenKong says you need to register the money funds here.

Best of luck.

[Belzybob]

Have you physically met this agent or vendor? I've got this image of a big Nigerian sitting at his computer using some of his fake email accounts.

[david555]

 

http://www.acuterealty.com/calculator.asp

 

Tax calculating tool ,..... beware only is dated from 2014 updated....but can be good giving an idea what for who is normal toberesponable ...as in Pattaya "agents " seems to make their own rules ...especially the farang ones ...?

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by david555

[LukKrueng]

On 6/28/2018 at 9:54 AM, KittenKong said:

There is no rule about the transfer costs and taxes: they just have to be paid and the Land Office doesnt care who does it. But as I mentioned, vendors/agents here will try the 50/50 thing on if they can. Up to you to negotiate it down.

Most buyers here dont bother with a lawyer. There is nothing much for them to check: you can look at the building finances and committee procedures yourself, the Land Office wont process the sale if there are debts or liens on the property, a motorway probably wont be planned through your condo, many important things cant be checked at all, and the lawyer wont take responsibility for what they check anyway. So that's probably money down the drain. In the same way there is no real need for an advance contract either as the money changes hands at the time of the transfer and not before. If the transfer doesnt happen then you dont need to pay the money.

I dont see how you can transfer the money without a Thai bank account. I would never send large sums of money to someone else's account here under any circumstances.

It is possible to get a bank account here and you should keep trying other branches of other banks until you succeed. Perhaps getting a longer visa would help?

As for POAs: there will be snow on Pattaya beach before I would give anyone in Thailand the right to sign in my name. Some may think I am paranoid or stupid, but at least that makes me a paranoid idiot who still has all his own money in his own bank accounts. I know many apparently smarter and nicer people here who have lost much or even everything that way. I will never be one of them, and if the price for that is that people whom I dont like or trust think of me as a miserable old git, so be it.

Actually there is a rule. The taxes are the responsibility of the seller. However, it is unofficially open for negotiations. If the seller is desperate to sell he might be willing to pay 100%. If the buyer is desperate to buy he might be willing to pay 100%.... Personally I've been in both situations as a buyer.

as for sale agreement I agree with you. No real need to draw one. However, when an agent is involved there will usually be a contract to be signed, but the commission the agents get from the sale cover that. There is no need for the buyer to involve a lawyer for such thing.

I don't know about remote buy/sell - I have always been to the land office on person at the time of change of ownership, as were all the sellers. Btw-one of the official documents signed at the land department IS a sale/buy agreement...

as for paying part of the funds to an overseas account, that can work if the declared selling price is lower than the actual price

[KittenKong]

Actually there is a rule. The taxes are the responsibility of the seller. However, it is unofficially open for negotiations.

This is true enough and is described in the link I provided. However, given that the Land Office doesnt actually verify who is paying the various taxes and fees and only verifies that they have been paid, the "rule" seems irrelevant. Hence my comment.

You are entirely correct about one of the Land Office documents being a sales contract (in Thai), and I should have made that clearer in my comment. Any other pre-sale contract signed would normally be more focussed on things like the furniture/contents/condition, or clauses to cover one party changing their minds, or such-like.

[newnative]

     A 50/50 split of the closing costs is often done--most of my condo purchases and sales have been 50/50 split.  But, closing costs are negotiable.  The seller or the seller's agent should produce the sales contract; buyers will sometimes have a lawyer review the contract.  As a buyer, my partner and I usually have some changes and/or additions to most contracts that we sign--review the contract carefully.  

     At the time of the contract signing. a deposit is usually made, with the money usually held by the agent.  As others have said, you need to send the purchase money to Thailand with a note "For condo purchase".   I would not turn over any more money, other than the deposit, until the actual sale at the Land Office when you receive the Chanote (title deed). 

[Fairynuff]

On 6/28/2018 at 2:14 AM, KittenKong said:

In theory most of these are the vendors responsibility, though the idea of a 50/50 split is frequently bandied about by vendors and agents as though it was normal. The whole thing is negotiable though.


In practice and I’m speaking from experience the transfer tax is always paid 50/50. “Income” or business tax as it is called here is paid by the vendor. This is what’s normal, not bandied about 

[chocolatesound1]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

     A 50/50 split of the closing costs is often done--most of my condo purchases and sales have been 50/50 split.  But, closing costs are negotiable.  The seller or the seller's agent should produce the sales contract; buyers will sometimes have a lawyer review the contract.  As a buyer, my partner and I usually have some changes and/or additions to most contracts that we sign--review the contract carefully.  

     At the time of the contract signing. a deposit is usually made, with the money usually held by the agent.  As others have said, you need to send the purchase money to Thailand with a note "For condo purchase".   I would not turn over any more money, other than the deposit, until the actual sale at the Land Office when you receive the Chanote (title deed). 

Thanks.

I gave a 100,000 deposit to take it off of the market while the DD was done. Are you saying there's usually another deposit put down at the time of the contract signing and then the final payment is made the day of the transfer? That actually would be better for me since I'm going to be there in 6 weeks and could make the final payment when I arrive if that's the case. 

 

 

[chocolatesound1]

5 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

What ever you do, do not send funds for the condo. purchase to the sellers overseas account, that is massively high risk I think. The Land Office will want to have proof that the funds you used to buy the condo came from outside Thailand, if they don't have that they may not allow the purchase to proceed and even if they did, you wouldn't be able to export those funds again when you went to sell the unit.

 

If it were me it would be mandatory that I attended the Land Office to complete the purchase, if the seller wants to use a POA that's up to him, as a buyer I would not, under almost any circumstances.

Thanks, yeah sending to a foreign account sounded all bad to me.

[KittenKong]

In practice and I’m speaking from experience the transfer tax is always paid 50/50. “Income” or business tax as it is called here is paid by the vendor. This is what’s normal, not bandied about

I think you will find that in many cases agents and vendors will try and make it appear that the often-quoted 50/50 split applies to all the costs, including the income tax. That is what agents/vendors tried to con me with, twice, and this is the deception. Luckily I knew it was a con and refused to pay it. Other buyers may not know and may be deceived.

What should happen is that the buyer pays all or part of the (usually small) transfer fee and the vendor pays the (usually much larger) taxes/duties, as clearly described in the link I posted. But the two are frequently jumbled up together by unscrupulous agents/vendors. It is easy to understand why.

There is nothing "normal" about tricking someone into paying part of your tax for you, though it certainly is commonplace here.

[chocolatesound1]

1 hour ago, Fairynuff said:

In practice and I’m speaking from experience the transfer tax is always paid 50/50. “Income” or business tax as it is called here is paid by the vendor. This is what’s normal, not bandied about 

Ahhh, the broker said transfer fees etc are split 50/50. He said the total would be about 6.3 percent split 2 ways. I wasn't sure if he was including the business (income) tax but I think so. Also the seller was only the owner for 4 years so from what I'm reading, the business tax will be much more... Do I have it right?

[dddave]

If you are 50+ years old, getting an "O" visa with a one year retirement extension usually helps facilitate opening a local bank account.  You can apply for this visa thru a Thai consulate in the US.

Though trying to open a Thai bank account can be frustrating, persistence usually pays off.  It seems to boil down to seeing the right bank officer on the right day.  It does help to be well dressed and presentable...that counts here.

Some banks, Tanachart for example seem to have hard and set rules requiring a work permit but others such as Bangkok Bank and Kasikorn seem to be more flexible.

Edited June 29, 2018 by dddave

[chocolatesound1]

3 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

I think you will find that in many cases agents and vendors will try and make it appear that the often-quoted 50/50 split applies to all the costs, including the income tax. That is what agents/vendors tried to con me with, twice, and this is the deception. Luckily I knew it was a con and refused to pay it. Other buyers may not know and may be deceived.

What should happen is that the buyer pays all or part of the (usually small) transfer fee and the vendor pays the (usually much larger) taxes/duties, as clearly described in the link I posted. But the two are frequently jumbled up together by unscrupulous agents/vendors. It is easy to understand why.

There is nothing "normal" about tricking someone into paying part of your tax for you, though it certainly is commonplace here.

Yeah, I'm realizing, I think that is what the broker is doing... Say's total should be about 6.3 percent split 2 ways. Thanks again for all your advice.. it's really appreciated!

[KittenKong]

I gave a 100,000 deposit to take it off of the market while the DD was done.

You have already paid far more as a deposit than I ever would in Thailand. Pay no more until the transfer happens.

Bear in mind that you have little protection in law regarding this deposit money, and probably dont have a decent and specific contract to back it up either. If the sale falls through for whatever reason you may find that the deposit is not returned to you.

The only exception to this would be for some wonderful property that has dozens of people clamouring to buy it. I dont believe that any such property exists in Thailand, and indeed most properties here sit for months or years without any interest being shown in them at all.

[KittenKong]

Ahhh, the broker said transfer fees etc are split 50/50. He said the total would be about 6.3 percent split 2 ways. I wasn't sure if he was including the business (income) tax but I think so.

Yes, you are being scammed in the way I described.

It is VERY common here.

Trust no one.

[chocolatesound1]

5 minutes ago, dddave said:

If you are 50+ years old, getting an "O" visa with a one year retirement extension usually helps facilitate opening a local bank account.  You can apply for this visa thru a Thai consulate in the US.

Though trying to open a Thai bank account can be frustrating, persistence usually pays off.  It seems to boil down to seeing the right bank officer on the right day.  It does help to be well dressed and presentable...that counts here.

Some banks, Tanachart for example seem to have hard and set rules requiring a work permit but others such as Bangkok Bank and Kasikorn seem to be more flexible.

Yeah, I'm only 48 so I have a little longer to wait for the O visa. I'm hearing that Bangkok Bank seems to be the easiest  but it seems I at least need a rental or some kind of ownership contract. I'm going to try again when I get there... Maybe a purchase agreement will help. thanks 

[KittenKong]

In my experience, which is limited to Pattaya and nearby, Kasikorn and Krungsri are often helpful when it comes to accounts for farangs, though it does depend hugely on which branch you go to and the mood of the people there on the day.

Mentioning that you are buying a condo and need an account to have the funds transferred to cant do any harm, I think.

Also see this pinned topic, and others in the banking sub-forum:

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/260738-opening-a-new-bank-account-in-thailand/

[chocolatesound1]

3 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

In my experience, which is limited to Pattaya and nearby, Kasikorn and Krungsri are often helpful when it comes to accounts for farangs, though it does depend hugely on which branch you go to and the mood of the people there on the day.

Mentioning that you are buying a condo and need an account to have the funds transferred to cant do any harm, I think.

Also see this pinned topic, and others in the banking sub-forum:

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/260738-opening-a-new-bank-account-in-thailand/

I'll check it out and try those, I did see many mentions of those banks too. I planned on trying Bangkok branches but I've been seeing that people also have some luck in Pattaya too.

[Fairynuff]

28 minutes ago, chocolatesound1 said:

Ahhh, the broker said transfer fees etc are split 50/50. He said the total would be about 6.3 percent split 2 ways. I wasn't sure if he was including the business (income) tax but I think so. Also the seller was only the owner for 4 years so from what I'm reading, the business tax will be much more... Do I have it right?

Yes. He has to keep it 5 years before the tax decreases. As the purchaser you should pay half the transfer only.

[chocolatesound1]

2 minutes ago, Fairynuff said:

Yes. He has to keep it 5 years before the tax decreases. As the purchaser you should pay half the transfer only.

Sounds good to me! thanks!

[Fairynuff]

37 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

I think you will find that in many cases agents and vendors will try and make it appear that the often-quoted 50/50 split applies to all the costs, including the income tax. That is what agents/vendors tried to con me with, twice, and this is the deception. Luckily I knew it was a con and refused to pay it. Other buyers may not know and may be deceived.

What should happen is that the buyer pays all or part of the (usually small) transfer fee and the vendor pays the (usually much larger) taxes/duties, as clearly described in the link I posted. But the two are frequently jumbled up together by unscrupulous agents/vendors. It is easy to understand why.

There is nothing "normal" about tricking someone into paying part of your tax for you, though it certainly is commonplace here.

Maybe I’ve been lucky but no agent/vendor/purchaser has ever tried to con me. Transfer fee can vary but not much either side of 2%