Put your cards on the table, EU makes last Brexit call to Britain

[sandyf]

58 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

But nobody knows if airlines, companies etc are or are not preparing for a worst case scenario . The swamp of concerns are mainly generated by remainers like you banging on about them.

 

If I had a UK company that was exporting to the EU right after the vote in 2016 I would have had my business looking at the worst case and coming up with a response and then looking at what happens if this, that or the other.

 

I agree with you that May and her "team"are ineffective and as much use as a chocolate teapot but the only people who can do anything about that are the dissatisfied Tory MPs. They have to decide to either sort it out and very quickly or go down with the sinking ship.

 

A question for you. If their is a general election very soon and the Tories lose power do you honestly think that Labour could do any better?

 

I see lots of sniping comments from Labour but I don't recall any definitive Brexit policy from any of them.

I should think most of the big boys have taken steps but many businesses do not have spare cash and would be reluctant to spend money on something that may never happen. TM has been telling them that there will be a deal and nothing much will change, every chance that many will get caught out one way or another.

As far as Labour is concerned it would be what you mean by "better", JC is a closet brexiteer, the SM flies in the face of nationalisation. Time for a change in leadership on both sides of the fence.

[stephenterry]

8 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I should think most of the big boys have taken steps but many businesses do not have spare cash and would be reluctant to spend money on something that may never happen. TM has been telling them that there will be a deal and nothing much will change, every chance that many will get caught out one way or another.

As far as Labour is concerned it would be what you mean by "better", JC is a closet brexiteer, the SM flies in the face of nationalisation. Time for a change in leadership on both sides of the fence.

I agree that JC favours leaving the EU, but at the same time he can see the benefit of a 'soft' brexit which means remaining in the single market and customs union.  I can't see why anyone would not want to trade in a tariff-free largest market on our doorstep. It's economic madness to do otherwise. 

[bristolboy]

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Did they miss out '' Could '' Could appears to be remainer code for FACT ??

 

I am fairly certain that the ICAO will also have something to say on the matter ??

Whereas the motto of the Brexiteers is "Ignorance is bliss."

[stephenterry]

12 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

???

 

Is that the progressive in you coming to the fore, resort to spitting the dummy over a direct question ??

 

Want to try again ?

 

Should be fairly easy to answer without resorting to obfuscation, dummy tossing and deflection.

 

You can be in the EU's Single Market, but not the EU, this is what Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein do.

source: -BBC business report.

[sandyf]

7 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

I agree that JC favours leaving the EU, but at the same time he can see the benefit of a 'soft' brexit which means remaining in the single market and customs union.  I can't see why anyone would not want to trade in a tariff-free largest market on our doorstep. It's economic madness to do otherwise. 

Quite, he is caught between reality and old time labour views.

[Chomper Higgot]

16 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

???

 

Is that the progressive in you coming to the fore, resort to spitting the dummy over a direct question ??

 

Want to try again ?

 

Should be fairly easy to answer without resorting to obfuscation, dummy tossing and deflection.

 

Why should any Remain supporter offer a Brexiteer help with the problems of Brexit?

 

Leave never had a plan - nothing to do with Remain.

 

You voted Brexit, you own it.

[sandyf]

3 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

You can be in the EU's Single Market, but not the EU, this is what Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein do.

source: -BBC business report.

There are some that have EFTA membership missing from their vocabulary.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Quite, he is caught between reality and old time labour views.

JCs views on housing, healthcare, policing, welfare, education, wages, worker’s rights, not fighting other people’s wars, public transport.

 

All very much in step with reality and the real concerns of millions of British voters.

[melvinmelvin]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Really? So did you have a vote in the 1975 general election?  

 

 

 

In 1979, the merger of Nokia and Salora resulted in the establishment of "Mobira Oy". Mobira developed mobile phones for the Nordic Mobile Telephone (NMT) network, called the "1G" and was the first fully automatic cellular phone system. It became commercially available in 1981.

 

 

 

 

vote in 75 election? relevant?

 

checked my memory - I started using mobile phones in Norway in 1970 or 1971 - many had mob phones as early as that,

the system name OLT comes to mind, but can't remember if OLT was after what I used and before NMT or if what I used in the 70s was called OLT.

 

rather off topic

 

but the only really interesting (in my view) thing in what I wrote was the very very early "widespread" use of social media

Sweden - New Jersey/US  - some country in Europe I have forgotten - Norway

started using social media at scale in the late 70s

 

 

[tomacht8]

47 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Easyjet has already established a European subsidiary to over come that problem.

Yes, EasyJet – Applied for a new air operator’s certificate (AOC) in Austria to allow it to continue flying in the European Union after Brexit, setting up a headquarters in Vienna.

 

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

vote in 75 election? relevant?

 

checked my memory - I started using mobile phones in Norway in 1970 or 1971 - many had mob phones as early as that,

the system name OLT comes to mind, but can't remember if OLT was after what I used and before NMT or if what I used in the 70s was called OLT.

 

rather off topic

 

but the only really interesting (in my view) thing in what I wrote was the very very early "widespread" use of social media

Sweden - New Jersey/US  - some country in Europe I have forgotten - Norway

started using social media at scale in the late 70s

 

 

That's actually new information to me. Thanks!

 

I suppose you by social media you mean the dial-in forums, which were popular in 80's?

 

France had it's own Minitel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minitel network, which was experimented in 1978 and launched to public in 1982.

 

[melvinmelvin]

dial

line switched (X.21)

packet switched (X.25)

or straight physical cable

 

[melvinmelvin]

44 minutes ago, sandyf said:

There are some that have EFTA membership missing from their vocabulary.

and Switzerland

 

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, stephenterry said:

You clearly don't understand my post. The referendum question did NOT include exiting the ECJ, nor the single market, nor the customs union, nor Euratom. That was Theresa May's interpretation of what leaving the EU, was.

 

Perhaps you like to consider your ill-judged and impolite response in contravention of forum rule 16. I welcome an adult debate, but not a derogatory reply.

 

Thank you.

   

I understand that you said that people did not vote to leave the ECJ. I say you are wrong. Exiting the EU meant freeing ourselves from the ECJ, new EU laws and eventually those EU laws not advantageous to the UK. I am a fan of retaining habeas corpus - a big issue that is hardly mentioned here - certainly not as much as the forum rules!

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, stephenterry said:

You are wrong, or, more correctly, misunderstand what the referendum question asked.

“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”

 

There was no obligation for May to do anything other than leave the EU sometime, if she respected the referendum vote. No mandate for anything else.

 

And no immediate obligation to invoke Article 50, or to leave the single market, or customs union, or Euratom, or reject the ECJ's rulings. Something Brexiteers ignore, and they would be wise to realise that their 'winning' mandate should not be overloaded with meanings not in the referendum question. That May chose to do the opposite, IMO, is her right as PM, and with parliament approval and the Queen's permission. 

 

Repeated for a better understanding. 

 

“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”

 

So please don't try and obfuscate the facts and truths. 

 

 

 

So how long could a PM wait to pull the trigger before being kicked out? It is you that overloads the meaning of the Q.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Actually, I think you will find that it was a remainer going to Court ( Gina Miller ) that opened the door to a Parliamentary vote on triggering A50.

 

The irony ??

 

They did not vote to leave the SM or the CU as it was not on the ballot paper 

 

What dictates leaving the SM and CU is actually Para 3, Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty

 

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

 

Can you read that ?

 

All Treaties cease to apply.

 

It does not say

 

Some Treaties cease to apply.

 

And contrary to the beliefs of many remainers, remaining in the SM does not constitute leaving the EU

Article 50 should now be delayed/postponed/suspendedin view of the current shambles and the importance of the issue.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

thousands (not ARPA/Internet in Europe, though, that was for a selected few)

 

Gosh, not even tens of thousands then? 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, stephenterry said:

The single market is not the EU. Can you understand that?  Nor is the customs union. UK negotiations on withdrawing from the EU could request access to the single market if agreed. That's not a conflict, but a pragmatic and beneficial request for both sides, as would be a reciprocal request from the EU to the UK.   

 

It's really about time Brexiteers understood the word - compromise.

 

That solution has already been offered. It represents the optimal compromise.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

What were you saying about obfuscation ?

 

I did not mention Norway or Switzerland, nor do I care about Norway or Switzerland.

 

I asked a direct question.

 

I await a factual, non obfuscation answer.

Are Norway and Switzerland in the EU?

[vogie]

12 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Article 50 should now be delayed/postponed/suspendedin view of the current shambles and the importance of the issue.

 

[aright]

13 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Are Norway and Switzerland in the EU?

Depends on who is asking, time of day, how many beers I have had and if she said yes or no last night.

[The Renegade]

1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

You can be in the EU's Single Market, but not the EU, this is what Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein do.

source: -BBC business report.

In the UK's case, being a member of the SM does not equate to leaving the EU.

 

Still ruled from Brussels, and under the Jurisdiction of the ECJ.

 

The off topic Countries that you list have never been members of the EU and can do whatever they want.

 

They must be happy to pay money to accept rules from Brussels and the judgement of the ECJ.

[aright]

11 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Brexiteers no doubt will assume X25 is an express bus to Great Yarmouth!

Remainers of course will know it's a charabanc to Sesame Street 

[Grouse]

This is the key issue:

 

In representative democracies referendums are uncommon. In the U.K. They have previously been used to allow the electorate to ENDORSE a decision taken by the government.

 

In this case, Cameron foolishly attempted to use a referendum as a tool to deal with the Tory Eurosceptics once and for all.

 

The electorate should never have been asked to decide such a complex issue with such a simplistic question by referendum

 

So the whole thing is "arse about face". A detailed plan should have been developed to change our position concerning the EU (if that was considered desirable) approved by parliament and ONLY THEN be put to the electorate for endorsement as it is a constitutional issue.

 

Frankly, we should stop this nonsense now. 

 

The government should negotiate what, if any, changes it desires, have the deal approved by Parliament and then put it to the electorate for endorsement.

 

I put it to you that this is the best course of action. There is no rush, we have many other pressing matters. Such as which pub for Sunday lunch! Sherry anyone?

Edited July 22, 2018 by Grouse

[Jip99]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

seems to me that the tories have challenges coming up with good persons at all

 

anyway,

 

In my view it was very good for UK that Cameron vanished rapidly (and good for Cameron as well), that is the way it should be done

no point in having him around after ballsing up with his EU/referndum strategy

 

 

 

Valid point, but unfortunately he was one of the few half decent politicians that the Tories had.

[Jip99]

40 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Brexiteers no doubt will assume X25 is an express bus to Great Yarmouth!

 

 

Brexiteers are fully aware that X25 is the Heathrow/Reading route............................................

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

I understand that you said that people did not vote to leave the ECJ. I say you are wrong. Exiting the EU meant freeing ourselves from the ECJ, new EU laws and eventually those EU laws not advantageous to the UK. I am a fan of retaining habeas corpus - a big issue that is hardly mentioned here - certainly not as much as the forum rules!

I’m not sure how ‘habeas corpus’ got into the discussion (there is nothing about the EU that threatens it).

 

The issue at hand is habeas exitus consilium.

[roobaa01]

not at the moment but in the future with an overboardening centralised brussels bureacracy where states give up their sovereignty..

 

wbrroobaa01

 

 

[Rally123]

8 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m sure there are many things you don’t understand.

May be so, but having waited patiently for the last 40+ years to see the back of the EU I really couldn't give a .......... just as long as we leave.     

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

May be so, but having waited patiently for the last 40+ years to see the back of the EU I really couldn't give a .......... just as long as we leave.     

According to Jacob Rees Mogg, speaking on Channel 4 yesterday, it could take up to 50 years before the benefits of Brexit start to be felt in the UK. Are you willing to wait that long?