Put your cards on the table, EU makes last Brexit call to Britain

[stephenterry]

Immigration control is important, but economy is critical. I can see 'freedom of movement' will be challenged for a long time by EU countries, but no EU country is going to let their economy implode if they can prevent that. which would happen if they left the EU.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Have you just outed yourself, nauseus, or is this much more of a concern than I had realised???

 

(apologies - wrong stalwart attributed...)

I'm just sick of the same old questions over two years and he wanted a simple answer! ?

[The Renegade]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Government expenditure planning is not carried out in relation to real time tax accumulation - like practically every business, they work on 5, 10, 20 year forecasts, and make expenditure plans accordingly.

Yes, and it appears to working a treat, don't you think ?

 

Crystal balls, debt and zombie companies everywhere.

 

Government expenditure is not planned in relation to tax take. Although they are interlinked Government expenditure would still happen even if there was no tax take, AKA Government borrowing.

[The Renegade]

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Looks like we could have a Gove v Rees Mogg showdown - both positioning themselves to be top dog ahead of the imminent toppling of TM.

May is her own worst enemy.

 

'' Brexit means Brexit '' and '' No deal is better than a bad deal ''

 

She is failing badly on both, quite simply because she is a remainer and is trying to appease remainers and the EU, whilst trying to appease Leavers.

 

It is not possible to do all 3 and if she is toppled then she only has herself and her advisers to blame.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

EU ON THE BRINK

 

The EU is in complete disarray, due primarily to the influx of mass uncontrolled immigration.

 

This ship of fools is no longer seaworthy, yet still the remainers want us to leave the lifeboat, climb back on board in order to go down with the ship; madness, utter madness, everywhere you look in the EU, there is chaos and disunity.

 

Yesterday, German interior minister Horst Seehofer, offered to resign, dismissing the EU migrant deal reached last week and accusing Merkel of making “zero” concessions in their dispute.

 

Seehofer described a meeting with Mrs Merkel on Saturday evening as “pointless and ineffective” and added: “I go to the trouble of going to Berlin and the chancellor showed zero point zero movement.”

 

In a last-ditch effort to resolve the crisis in Germany, Mrs Merkel had circulated a summary of the summit agreements to the CSU and Social Democratic Party (SPD) coalition leaders, and listed 14 EU countries that she said were prepared to sign deals to take back asylum seekers who had been registered elsewhere. These deals would of course be bilateral deals, ignoring the collective view.

 

However, her claim was substantially weakened at the weekend when Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary were in complete denial of having made any undertaking to take back refugees. Italy, where most of the migrants that reach the German-Austrian border are registered, has not agreed to take any back.

 

With member states openly defying directives and the German government in danger of collapse, the EU is in grave danger of imploding before the UK gets to leave.

Go back to the OP, the issue under discussion is it’s now time for the British Government to deliver their negotiating position.

 

PM May has admitted she has not got an agreement with her own cabinet, something she says will happen this week. 

 

How, I wonder, will this be cast as the EU’s fault if the PM fails in this commitment she made?

 

Meanwhile the knives are out, there’s nothing quite so much fun to observe as a good old Tory internecine back stabbing fest.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

We want proper light bulbs again.

What, electric heaters that produce a little light? That's rather dim

[nauseus]

Just now, Grouse said:

What, electric heaters that produce a little light? That's rather dim

And a buenos dias to you too, El Grouso!

[Grouse]

38 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

I would ask you to desist in flaming my posts, it is uncalled for.

It's all the poorly educated can do. School playground bullies. The mods clean up from time to time but it is tiresome I agree.

[Grouse]

17 minutes ago, nauseus said:

And a buenos dias to you too, El Grouso!

Mucho grassy ass!

 

[dick dasterdly]

11 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Go back to the OP, the issue under discussion is it’s now time for the British Government to deliver their negotiating position.

 

PM May has admitted she has not got an agreement with her own cabinet, something she says will happen this week. 

 

How, I wonder, will this be cast as the EU’s fault if the PM fails in this commitment she made?

 

Meanwhile the knives are out, there’s nothing quite so much fun to observe as a good old Tory internecine back stabbing fest.

The eu has made no attempt at genuine negotiations, and the brit. cabinet/govt. have made it very difficult for May/the uk to fight back as they're refusing to act in a 'professional' way.  i.e. When negotiating, it's important to at least appear to present a unified front! 

 

Instead, they've made it very obvious that many prefer to remain part of the eu and will fight for a leave in name only deal or, in their vocabulary, the softest brexit possible...

 

And that's without getting into the fact that May was a remainer prior to the referendum.

 

In short, the cabinet and govt. have made it easy for the eu to refuse to negotiate....

[vogie]

On 7/1/2018 at 10:25 AM, stephenterry said:

So, for Brexiters and Remainers alike, it would be a definitive 'will of the people'.  I would go one step further - only voters aged 45 or less should be permitted to vote, because the after effects of Brexit would impinge on the younger generation more than any other age-group. And if older people complain that their rights are impinged, I would do a Boris on them, f*** you, like he did to Business, and for which he should have been fired from the cabinet.

Are these some of the people you mean when you say "only voters aged 45 or less should be permitted to vote". Why not go the whole hog and say, only people with the name grouse can vote?

 

[roobaa01]

what a laugh these political eu clowns with their zone in tatters no unity, no solidarity, no nothing. already the last eu summit on asylum tourism was an alibi one a charade to keep lame duck merkel afloat.however, everything turned out murkier than before eastern europe, austria, italy persuing their own national policy our country first. eu is made of talking heads and simple minds.

 

hence britain is well off as a non eu member.

 

wbrroobaa01

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

The eu has made no attempt at genuine negotiations, and the brit. cabinet/govt. have made it very difficult for May/the uk to fight back as they're refusing to act in a 'professional' way.  i.e. When negotiating, it's important to at least appear to present a unified front! 

 

Instead, they've made it very obvious that many prefer to remain part of the eu and will fight for a leave in name only deal or, in their vocabulary, the softest brexit possible...

 

And that's without getting into the fact that May was a remainer prior to the referendum.

 

In short, the cabinet and govt. have made it easy for the eu to refuse to negotiate....

The EU can hardly be blamed for making no attempt at negotiations when the British PM admits that she still hasn’t agreed a negotiating position with her own cabinet.

 

Cameron offered the referendum as an attempt to end internal Tory conflicts over the UK’s membership of the EU. 

 

Those conflicts and infighting have only grown worse.

 

The knives are out, let the games begin.

[billd766]

31 minutes ago, vogie said:

Are these some of the people you mean when you say "only voters aged 45 or less should be permitted to vote". Why not go the whole hog and say, only people with the name grouse can vote?

 

 

Jeez I used to open ration pack food tins with a compo tin opener faster that that in the field.

 

Clapping and cheering someone who has managed to open a tin, and stephenterry believers that people like that deserve a vote and us oldies don't?

 

 

[whatsupdoc]

36 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The EU can hardly be blamed for making no attempt at negotiations when the British PM admits that she still hasn’t agreed a negotiating position with her own cabinet.

 

Cameron offered the referendum as an attempt to end internal Tory conflicts over the UK’s membership of the EU. 

 

Those conflicts and infighting have only grown worse.

 

The knives are out, let the games begin.

The EU has clear rules. Necessary, because it is the only way to keep all those countries together. The UK wants to leave and at the same time change those EU rules in order to be able to cherrypick what benefits they want to keep....

Anyone can see that strategy is not going to work. The EU is completely right to stick to their rules and yes, obviously that doesn't give much leeway for negotiations.

There's the Norway or Canada solution or no deal at all. Time for the UK to make up their mind. But sadly, no-one in the government (or even opposition) seems to be able to compromise on a joint strategy.

The EU is correct not to give too much attention to Brexit, there are more urgent and important problems to solve. The UK voted to leave but cannot agree on what that means. Lose-lose for everybody, but at least the EU will be prepared for it, unlike the UK.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

The eu has made no attempt at genuine negotiations, and the brit. cabinet/govt. have made it very difficult for May/the uk to fight back as they're refusing to act in a 'professional' way.  i.e. When negotiating, it's important to at least appear to present a unified front! 

 

Instead, they've made it very obvious that many prefer to remain part of the eu and will fight for a leave in name only deal or, in their vocabulary, the softest brexit possible...

 

And that's without getting into the fact that May was a remainer prior to the referendum.

 

In short, the cabinet and govt. have made it easy for the eu to refuse to negotiate....

 

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The EU can hardly be blamed for making no attempt at negotiations when the British PM admits that she still hasn’t agreed a negotiating position with her own cabinet.

 

Cameron offered the referendum as an attempt to end internal Tory conflicts over the UK’s membership of the EU. 

 

Those conflicts and infighting have only grown worse.

 

The knives are out, let the games begin.

I think that's pretty much what I said?

 

Edit - Only from a different viewpoint.

Edited July 2, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[JAG]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Are these some of the people you mean when you say "only voters aged 45 or less should be permitted to vote". Why not go the whole hog and say, only people with the name grouse can vote?

 

No, no, no! This is a debate about democracy and the EU.

Only those that agree with "Grouse" can vote.

That way we will always get the enlightened educated result he wants...

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

The EU has clear rules. Necessary, because it is the only way to keep all those countries together. The UK wants to leave and at the same time change those EU rules in order to be able to cherrypick what benefits they want to keep....

Anyone can see that strategy is not going to work. The EU is completely right to stick to their rules and yes, obviously that doesn't give much leeway for negotiations.

There's the Norway or Canada solution or no deal at all. Time for the UK to make up their mind. But sadly, no-one in the government (or even opposition) seems to be able to compromise on a joint strategy.

The EU is correct not to give too much attention to Brexit, there are more urgent and important problems to solve. The UK voted to leave but cannot agree on what that means. Lose-lose for everybody, but at least the EU will be prepared for it, unlike the UK.

The EU rules may be clear but that doesn't make them sensible. Now the world can see more and more of these "rules" are being broken, by more and more member states, as well as the central bureaucracy itself. The EU has been breaking several of its own precious rules when it has suited itself - pretty much from its foundation - this is now becoming far more evident than before. As these rules have never been bent for the benefit of the UK, maybe a leaving present for us is in order; a parting gesture of goodwill, showing how benevolent and magnanimous the EU truly is? 

[whatsupdoc]

15 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The EU rules may be clear but that doesn't make them sensible. Now the world can see more and more of these "rules" are being broken, by more and more member states, as well as the central bureaucracy itself. The EU has been breaking several of its own precious rules when it has suited itself - pretty much from its foundation - this is now becoming far more evident than before. As these rules have never been bent for the benefit of the UK, maybe a leaving present for us is in order; a parting gesture of goodwill, showing how benevolent and magnanimous the EU truly is? 

The UK already had one of the best deals within the EU and now it is giving that up. For what?

I think that after some years of Brexit debacle the UK might want to rejoin. I do not think the rebate or the options not to join the euro and Schengen would still be available by then.

[Guest]

Britain doesn't have any sensible plan for Brexit, which has become rather clear over the couple of years.

 

Perhaps British government was waiting for the Russian meddling to be publicly discussed, so that they could cancel the whole Brexit deal?

 

That time has now come. Cancel the Brexit, let's figure out a good way forward for now. Britain can exit from the Union, when the time is better for it.

 

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/06/the-british-russia-collusion-scandal-is-breaking-wide-open.html

 

"The Other Russia Collusion Scandal Is Breaking Wide Open"

 

 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

https://youtu.be/PdPfcq5K8FY

 

 

Labour’s forgotten prophet .... Who knew about 'project fear' in 1975

 

This is a truly amazing speech by Peter Shore, one of Labour’s, and Britain’s, most brilliant and visionary politicians, as he pleaded for Britain not to join the EU in 1975, on the eve of the referendum. A true man of the people.

 

It is worth watching at least the first minute, to see the squirming expression on the face of the treacherous Ted Heath.

 

Revealed much later under the 30 year confidentiality rule, was that on the very day the application (to join) went in, the 6 member states approved the principle that member states be given “equal access” to each others fishing waters. The UK’s chief negotiator Geoffrey Rippon told Ted Heath that if we wanted to join the Common Market “we will have to sacrifice our fishermen”

 

Another document released, related to the Heath governments reaction to the “Werner Report” a document that ministers had commissioned Pierre Werner, the then Prime Minister of Luxembourg to draw up. It set out a plan to move the Common Market forward to full economic and monetary union; and the only concern Heath showed to this report was that it should not be discussed openly in public because it might inflame public opinion against what they were being assured was no more than a market place intended to boost trade.

 

Peter Shore was a complete antithesis to Heath, as trade secretary to the Wilson government, he denied landing rights to Freddie Laker’s Skytrain to operate flights from London to the USA. He said it was more important to prevent the substantial damage that would be done to British Airways, then owned by the British people, than allowing the plundering of the most profitable routes by a privately owned company.

 

He said "It is easy enough to put on a private bus service from Marble Arch to Westminster and make it pay, but one knows very well that this will be done only at the expense of London Transport, who are obliged to service all the less profitable routes”

 

If only we had politicians like him now (*∆°)

 

P.S The decision against Skytrain was later overturned when Laker appealed to the high court

Edited July 2, 2018 by Eloquent pilgrim

[dick dasterdly]

16 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Britain doesn't have any sensible plan for Brexit, which has become rather clear over the couple of years.

 

Perhaps British government was waiting for the Russian meddling to be publicly discussed, so that they could cancel the whole Brexit deal?

 

That time has now come. Cancel the Brexit, let's figure out a good way forward for now. Britain can exit from the Union, when the time is better for it.

 

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/06/the-british-russia-collusion-scandal-is-breaking-wide-open.html

 

"The Other Russia Collusion Scandal Is Breaking Wide Open"

 

 

I'm always amazed at the gullibility of those that believe the russians somehow managed to influence the uk electorate....

 

 

 

 

 

It somehow escaped their notice that the brits. have been increasingly euro-sceptic for many years....

Apologies for the large 'gap' in the post - my computer is playing up again..

 

 

 

 

[nauseus]

35 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

The UK already had one of the best deals within the EU and now it is giving that up. For what?

I think that after some years of Brexit debacle the UK might want to rejoin. I do not think the rebate or the options not to join the euro and Schengen would still be available by then.

The best deals are had by those in control of the EU. The UK is not part of that group.

[dick dasterdly]

Everyone is tired of this charade, as the uk govt. tries to come up with a way to ensure the softest brexit possible (also known as 'leave in name only)..... without losing their seats....

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

15 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Everyone is tired of this charade, as the uk govt. tries to come up with a way to ensure the softest brexit possible (also known as 'leave in name only)..... without losing their seats....

 

 

I think the actual truth is there are two ‘warring’ sides within the Tory Cabinet.

 

One lot want the softest Brexit possible, the other lot want the hardest possible Brexit.

 

Leaks from Washington regarding Trump’s plans for the WTO ought to give both sides pause for thought.

[Grouse]

48 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The best deals are had by those in control of the EU. The UK is not part of that group.

Why not? We could and should be in a position of leadership. Right wing Euro sceptics have prevented this over the years. We've only really been "associate" members instead of being at the centre.

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Why not? We could and should be in a position of leadership. Right wing Euro sceptics have prevented this over the years. We've only really been "associate" members instead of being at the centre.

If being at the centre means losing the pound then no thanks. Bless the sceptics.  

[Ron19]

A flame post has been removed.

 

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

8.) You will not post disruptive or inflammatory messages, vulgarities, obscenities or profanities.

9) You will not post inflammatory messages on the forum, or attempt to disrupt discussions to upset its participants, or trolling. Trolling can be defined as the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet by posting controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

 

 

[aright]

20 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Why not? We could and should be in a position of leadership. Right wing Euro sceptics have prevented this over the years. We've only really been "associate" members instead of being at the centre.

You are right we should be in a position of leadership. The fact we are not has nothing to do with right wing euro sceptics and everything to do with the EU Parliament sensibility and makeup.

Since 1981 there have been seven Presidents of the European Commission none of them British.

The President is nominated by the European Council and voted in by the European Parliament.

We have seventy odd MEP's in a forum of seven hundred odd MEP's...………..only 10%

Is it surprising we don't have a leadership role?  

[vogie]

38 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Why not? We could and should be in a position of leadership. Right wing Euro sceptics have prevented this over the years. We've only really been "associate" members instead of being at the centre.

Why do you blame the UK every time, the blame game must lie with Juncker, without Juncker I believe the UK would still be in the EU. He has prevented reform within the EU.