Biggest international rescue operation ever assembled in Thailand

[lvr181]

1 hour ago, possum1931 said:

Exactly what "rank" is this "police chief"? What a joke these people are?

Deputy National Police Chief. AKA No2 in the hierarchy.

Edited July 2, 2018 by lvr181
Additional wording

[lvr181]

45 minutes ago, sanemax said:

No, it's not true .

I don't know about work permits but it was about equipment being "lawful". Not his area anyhow, that authority belongs with the Parks people.

Edited July 2, 2018 by lvr181
correction

[lamyai3]

4 hours ago, scorecard said:

Biggest international rescue operation ever assembled in Thailand

 

And in 9+ days no site visit or comment whatever from the national police chief nor the minister responsible for police.

 

 

I read in yesterday's newspaper that the national police chief was actually widely praised in social media, marching his team up difficult terrain where they abseiled down a shaft to lower food and supplies. Not surprisingly, the same social media outlets vilified his deputy. 

[NoshowJones]

22 minutes ago, lvr181 said:

Deputy National Police Chief. AKA No2 in the hierarchy.

OK thanks, I just wanted to see if he was one of these Lt/Cols etc

[KiwiKiwi]

52 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

On that we agree, and I'm not claiming it's being directed competently.  I don't know.  I hope it is, for the sake of the kids and their families.

 

In a scenario such as this, the kids and their families (who trusted the asst. coach let's not forget), are of secondary importance. The bigwigs are not there to benefit the kids or their families.

[thenoilif]

3 hours ago, seajae said:

could be contaminated with all the exhaust fumes and those smoking around the area. 

 

What do you think is actually happening? All of the cars are circled around the tent where the tanks are, with their tail pipes pointed inward while all of the rescue workers use the tent to smoke cigs? 

 

They're in the middle of the rainforest during the rainy season, the air is likely to be quite clean. 

[mike324]

2 hours ago, possum1931 said:

Exactly what "rank" is this "police chief"? What a joke these people are?

...he is just there for a photo op, completely useless and wasting tax payers money by going there 

[KiwiKiwi]

1 minute ago, mike324 said:

...he is just there for a photo op, completely useless and wasting tax payers money by going there 

 

Correct. He will be trying to assess the career advancement opportunities (CV - went to Chiang Rai to direct operations), and estimate the upward flow of cash. Apart from that? Probably nothing.

[mindfulness]

... one would feel that they would of set up relay camps along the way where relay teams bring back and forth refill oxygen tanks. So there is no need to keep on returning to base camp. 

[oldrunner]

Spoke with my Sister in Pennsauken, New Jersey, USA, last evening and was a bit surprised that she was well read on the Thai Cave rescue operations. No question that people all over the world are following this saga with hopes of successful rescue operation.

[seajae]

3 hours ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

If oxygen is toxic at 1 atm, we should all be dead !! We breathe oxygen every day at 1atm...

Normal air is 21% oxygen and only becomes seriously toxic at a depth of approx 70m. (Partial pressure 1.6).

Nitrox mixes are generally either 32% or 36% oxygen, which become toxic at shallower depths.

 

Pretty sure these divers will just be using air for their dives.

as in diving one atmoshere  is 33' of depth,  pure oxygen becomes toxic at 10 metres

Edited July 2, 2018 by seajae

[Basil B]

Does Thailand not have a construction division that could build roads and bridges so they can get drilling equipment to the right place?

 

I heard they only need to drill 60m to get down to Pattaya Beach.   

[cornishcarlos]

10 minutes ago, seajae said:

as in diving one atmoshere  is 33' of depth, oxygen becomes toxic at 10 metres

10m depth is 2 atm pressure..

 

Pure oxygen maybe but not any standard dive mix...

Edited July 2, 2018 by cornishcarlos

[KiwiKiwi]

6 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Does Thailand not have a construction division that could build roads and bridges so they can get drilling equipment to the right place?

 

I heard they only need to drill 60m to get down to Pattaya Beach.   

Thailand is a 3rd-world country with a proud history of bridges falling down - sometimes before they're even opened. Be careful what you wish for...

[Frotting]

4 hours ago, seajae said:

suggest you check that,  as a licensed diver that has cave experience as well as one that was trained in a specialized unit I know what I am taking about, havent dived for years now but nothing has changed. Instead of making a wild guess/assumptions(google search) you should really ask someone that knows, oxygen is toxic at  one atmoshere, gas combinations are used for deep diving only and is not common. Again we see someone that knows bugger all about it trying to sound like they do

Sorry to rain on your party, but as a professional oilfield diver (not a scooby doo) I feel compelled to put you right.  Firstly, scuba tanks are filled with air.  The only variation to this is if you happen to be one of those reckless 'technical' divers who for some reason want to go very deep (i.e. over 50m) when they will use heliox mixture.  Nitrogen and oxygen mixture (nitrox) is used to extend dive time by reducing need for decompression, not extend working depth, where the oxygen percentage is enriched to up to 40%.  Neither of these methods are appropriate for cave diving in this instance, where the bottom pressure should not be above 2 bar (twice atmospheric).  The cylinders will be filled with air, as can be seen from the photo that shows lots of cylinders and a high-pressure compressor for filling them.  Someone suggested filling them with oxygen.  However, without specialised equipment you will not pump oxygen at those pressures (i.e. 300 bar) without risking the lives of all those around to explosion hazards.  It is in fact illegal in first world countries to pump oxygen under pressure at a worksite.  To transfer oxygen it is first reduced to 40 bar.  This is from the IMCA guidelines, that govern all professional offshore diving.  In any case, there would be absolutely no advantage for the rescuers to breath pure O2.  Another commenter suggested oxygen re-breathers (i.e. closed circuit breathing sets).  These are used typically by the Navy for mine clearance and other ops where they don't want telltale bubbles reaching the surface or sound setting off mines.  These should only be used by trained personnel, as they require charging with soda lime to scrub the CO2 in order to recycle the gas for breathing.  Again, these would be of no practical use in this operation.  I believe the rescuers seem to be doing the right thing, by placing charged cylinders along the route every 25m, where hopefully they would also have fitted demand valves for breathing the air within.  Just leaving the bottles there would be a bit pointless without a means to breathe the air inside.  By the way, oxygen is NOT toxic at one atmosphere, otherwise why would they give it in resuscitation, as we are all at one atmosphere right now.  Pure O2 becomes toxic at around 2.8 atmospheres (absolute pressure), which equates to about 40 feet water depth.  But this toxicity depends on the individual.  It is called acute oxygen toxicity, meaning the onset is rapid and can lead to death if not recognised immediately.  This is why in deep diving the percentage of oxygen in the breathing mix is reduced, so the breathing gas has to be mixed based on the depth at which work is done.  All of this may be a bit off topic, but there have been so many comments from armchair keyboard warriors that somebody had to put some correct info into the debate.

 

It would seem that they are using the right techniques anyway.  As regards the coordination, mass of people, behaviour of the Junta and Generalissimo, search methodology and outcome, I really don't think it appropriate to comment.

[seajae]

3 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

10m depth is 2 atm pressure..

 

Pure oxygen maybe but not any standard dive mix...

every 33' is one atmosphere which is what I was eluding too, go 1 atmosphere/33'/10mtrs under the water and pure oxygen is toxic, pressure effects are the first thing you learn about when diving

 

[seajae]

3 minutes ago, Frotting said:

Sorry to rain on your party, but as a professional oilfield diver (not a scooby doo) I feel compelled to put you right.  Firstly, scuba tanks are filled with air.  The only variation to this is if you happen to be one of those reckless 'technical' divers who for some reason want to go very deep (i.e. over 50m) when they will use heliox mixture.  Nitrogen and oxygen mixture (nitrox) is used to extend dive time by reducing need for decompression, not extend working depth, where the oxygen percentage is enriched to up to 40%.  Neither of these methods are appropriate for cave diving in this instance, where the bottom pressure should not be above 2 bar (twice atmospheric).  The cylinders will be filled with air, as can be seen from the photo that shows lots of cylinders and a high-pressure compressor for filling them.  Someone suggested filling them with oxygen.  However, without specialised equipment you will not pump oxygen at those pressures (i.e. 300 bar) without risking the lives of all those around to explosion hazards.  It is in fact illegal in first world countries to pump oxygen under pressure at a worksite.  To transfer oxygen it is first reduced to 40 bar.  This is from the IMCA guidelines, that govern all professional offshore diving.  In any case, there would be absolutely no advantage for the rescuers to breath pure O2.  Another commenter suggested oxygen re-breathers (i.e. closed circuit breathing sets).  These are used typically by the Navy for mine clearance and other ops where they don't want telltale bubbles reaching the surface or sound setting off mines.  These should only be used by trained personnel, as they require charging with soda lime to scrub the CO2 in order to recycle the gas for breathing.  Again, these would be of no practical use in this operation.  I believe the rescuers seem to be doing the right thing, by placing charged cylinders along the route every 25m, where hopefully they would also have fitted demand valves for breathing the air within.  Just leaving the bottles there would be a bit pointless without a means to breathe the air inside.  By the way, oxygen is NOT toxic at one atmosphere, otherwise why would they give it in resuscitation, as we are all at one atmosphere right now.  Pure O2 becomes toxic at around 2.8 atmospheres (absolute pressure), which equates to about 40 feet water depth.  But this toxicity depends on the individual.  It is called acute oxygen toxicity, meaning the onset is rapid and can lead to death if not recognised immediately.  This is why in deep diving the percentage of oxygen in the breathing mix is reduced, so the breathing gas has to be mixed based on the depth at which work is done.  All of this may be a bit off topic, but there have been so many comments from armchair keyboard warriors that somebody had to put some correct info into the debate.

 

It would seem that they are using the right techniques anyway.  As regards the coordination, mass of people, behaviour of the Junta and Generalissimo, search methodology and outcome, I really don't think it appropriate to comment.

mate, thats what I have been saying if you read my earlier posts, it was the another guy that was saying to use oxygen and mixes, I was trying to explain why we use air for diving normally and mixes are for specialized diving

 

[cornishcarlos]

1 minute ago, seajae said:

every 33' is one atmosphere which is what I was eluding too, go 1 atmosphere/33'/10mtrs under the water and pure oxygen is toxic, pressure effects are the first thing you learn about when diving

 

 

I'm well aware of pressure effects.

I'm also aware that no one dives with pure oxygen, so your initial eluding was redundant and just confusing things.. 

[Ron19]

Off topic post removed.

[cyberfarang]

7 hours ago, Denim said:

The report was that he wanted to see the permits for any drones being used in the rescue and that if they were used without the proper permits the owners could find themselves in trouble.

There is more sense to this than some may realise.

 

All those involved in the rescue operation must prove they have the expertise and qualified for the job. The teams cannot risk some amateur Indiana Jones wanabies getting in on the act that could jeopardise the whole operation. Also those in-change of the rescue have a responsibility to ensure all is conducted correctly, the burdens placed on them is great, considering the whole world is watching as the events fold.  

[lvr181]

4 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

There is more sense to this than some may realise.

 

All those involved in the rescue operation must prove they have the expertise and qualified for the job. The teams cannot risk some amateur Indiana Jones wanabies getting in on the act that could jeopardise the whole operation. Also those in-change of the rescue have a responsibility to ensure all is conducted correctly, the burdens placed on them is great, considering the whole world is watching as the events fold.  

1st. The Tham Luang Cave is within the jurisdiction of the Department of National Parks, Wildlife and Plant Conservation, not the Royal Thai Police. 
2nd. Likewise, drones are within the jurisdiction of the Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand, not the Royal Thai Police. 

3rd. Section 67 of the Criminal Code which exempts a person from punishment if he or she is forced into a tight situation or put under unavoidable or irresistible pressure to commit an offence in order for himself, herself or others to escape immediate danger which is not caused by him or her.

 

I hope that that puts it in perspective for you.

He needs to butt out! 

[marco999]

6 hours ago, mike324 said:

Yes the police chief is being slammed by everyone in Thailand, even talk show hosts. On facebook page, there are countless posts about the police chief and memes made up bashing him. This guy can't be serious in wanting to rescue the kids.

If I understand you anybody can come and do what he want if he just said I come to help ? You think burmese or laos rescue team are qualify ? Me I don't think so. This is not a circus where anyone can do what he want.

[lvr181]

16 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

There is more sense to this than some may realise.

 

All those involved in the rescue operation must prove they have the expertise and qualified for the job. The teams cannot risk some amateur Indiana Jones wanabies getting in on the act that could jeopardise the whole operation. Also those in-change of the rescue have a responsibility to ensure all is conducted correctly, the burdens placed on them is great, considering the whole world is watching as the events fold.  

Also, the PM paid a visit and didn't ask/make dumb comments about equipment and it's use.

[Parsve]

5 hours ago, seajae said:

suggest you check that,  as a licensed diver that has cave experience as well as one that was trained in a specialized unit I know what I am taking about, havent dived for years now but nothing has changed. Instead of making a wild guess/assumptions(google search) you should really ask someone that knows, oxygen is toxic at  one atmoshere, gas combinations are used for deep diving only and is not common. Again we see someone that knows bugger all about it trying to sound like they do

With all respect to your knowledge, but I have 30 years experience as an instructor in scuba diving, nitrox diving, and oxygen diving, as well as I am a certificated hard hat diver, and as I am still alive I am rather confessed in what I am saying. If you want to read more about nitrox diving for sports divers you can go to https://www.scubadiving.com/nitrox-scuba-diving-guide-certification#page-5. Oxygen diving with closed systems is mostly used by the navy as it does not give any bubbles that could display the diver. However it is also used by some photo- and video-divers as the bubbles could scare what they are photographing. To not be misunderstood, I am perfectly sure that those divers in the rescue team choose the method that they believe give the best chance to reach the guys, and by that this discussion is closed from my side.

[observer90210]

8 hours ago, chrisinth said:

There were reports of some high ranking idiot interfering with drone operators while they were surveying, asking did they have the correct licences.

The dork deserves be sacked or transfered to one of their "inactive posts" and stripped of his stripes and rank. Such stupidity that compromises a rescue operation should not go unpunished.

[thenoilif]

2 hours ago, Basil B said:

Does Thailand not have a construction division that could build roads and bridges so they can get drilling equipment to the right place?

 

I heard they only need to drill 60m to get down to Pattaya Beach.   

Given the terrain and weather, I think it would be near impossible to stage a drill big enough to make a hole large enough to get through the rock and to the Pattaya Beach chamber and be of any use. There also the danger of cave ins and such. 

[thenoilif]

5 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Given that earlier today, the news reported several cars at the rescue site being broken into and burglarized, can you see why they may want to control access to a disaster zone? 

 

How many foreign heroes in 2004 came to loot the area while the authorities were too busy to watch them all?   It's not unbelievable at all.  

 

 

Have a link to this? I havent seen any stories about looters on the tele or in internet print.

[Wanderer555]

3 hours ago, seajae said:

every 33' is one atmosphere which is what I was eluding too, go 1 atmosphere/33'/10mtrs under the water and pure oxygen is toxic, pressure effects are the first thing you learn about when diving

 

You are correct, but I think there is some confusion in the use of terminology. ?

When describing 'atmospheres' in regards to the depth in which oxygen may become toxic, it is helpful to also use the terms Relative or Absolute. Most Depth gauges are calibrated to read '0' depth at sea level. If you are reading the pressure in atmospheres at a depth of 33' saltwater, it will read a 'Relative Pressure' of 1 atmosphere.  The actual pressure or 'Absolute Pressure' is 2 atmospheres.

When diving in fresh water (less dense than saltwater) or at altitude, the gauge needs to be recalibrated (manually or automatically) to provide an accurate reading.  

      Absolute pressure at sea level:              1 atmosphere
          Descend to 33' in saltwater::            +1 atmosphere
               Absolute pressure at 33' :              2 atmospheres

 

Cheers!

[chickenslegs]

2 hours ago, thenoilif said:

Have a link to this? I havent seen any stories about looters on the tele or in internet print.

Very brief mention in this link at 11.30am on Friday ... http://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/live-updates-teenager-football-team-trapped-thai-cave/

[metisdead]

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