SURVEY: Is Russia the enemy?

[upu2]

On 7/7/2018 at 11:45 PM, Kieran00001 said:

 

Who is saying that they alone are a danger to world peace?  Never heard it, people are always talking about Iran, N.Korea, USA, Israel, UK, etc.  who is claiming that only Russia is a threat?

The USA of course

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Putin and his government are blatant liars, plain and simple. As is often the case with autocratic dictators.

 

They plotted to take over by force Crimea, an adjoining territory that was legally part of Ukraine. They invaded the country with their own military and supplied arms and other support to Russian or other insurgents to wrest Crimea away from Ukraine.

 

The record is replete with Putin and other Russian leaders repeatedly and categorically denying Russian military was involved -- and yet Russian military forces were captured in Ukraine, Russian military hardware was seen traveling into and out of Ukraine, and more to the point, the bodies of Russian soldiers killed and injured in the fighting were piling up. There were mountains of evidence that the Russian military was directly and substantially involved.

 

Most U.N. nations condemned the Russian invasion as illegal, and the only thing that stopped a U.N. Security Council resolution against the invasion was the fact that Russia, as a Security Council member, would have vetoed it anyway.

 

There's a good reason the other independent states (former Soviet states) in Eastern Europe are worried about Putin and Russia, and that's that they fear they could be next. They're not worried about aggression from Western Europe or the U.S., by the way, but they most certainly are with Russia. And there's very good reason for that.

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Odysseus123]

40 minutes ago, upu2 said:

The USA of course

The curious thing is how much goodwill that they have squandered since WW2.

 

Apparently gorging oneself on Crispy Creme Donuts post Vietnam to become the planets most obese nation has not made up for the shortfall...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just now, Odysseus123 said:

The curious thing is how much goodwill that they have squandered since WW2.

 

Apparently gorging oneself on Crispy Creme Donuts post Vietnam to become the planets most obese nation has not made up for the shortfall...

 

Prior to Trump, I don't know that the U.S. had particularly squandered much good will in places like Europe or Asia. Germany and Japan are the major countries they are today in part because the U.S. helped establish them as democracies in the wake of WW II.

 

And that is the core difference between the U.S. and Russia in today's world. Russia stands for and is looking to export authoritarian regimes that they control in one way or another.  The U.S., more often than not, is looking to promote independent democracies where local peoples choose their own governments, not fake elections like in Russia where it's only possible for the incumbent to win.

 

[Odysseus123]

Just now, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Prior to Trump, I don't know that the U.S. had particularly squandered much good will in places like Europe or Asia. Germany and Japan are the major countries they are today in part because the U.S. helped establish them as democracies in the wake of WW II.

 

And that is the core difference between the U.S. and Russia in today's world. Russia stands for and is looking to export authoritarian regimes that they control in one way or another.  The U.S., more often than not, is looking to promote independent democracies where local peoples choose their own governments, not fake elections like in Russia where it's only possible for the incumbent to win.

 

Sorry BKK but history is against you.The U.S has been happy to create,control and maintain authoritarian regimes-as long as they are ON THEIR SIDE.

 

However,I would agree with you that prior to the present presidential incumbent foreign policy was,at least generally predictable in it's usual "Leave it to Beaver" style.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just now, Odysseus123 said:

Sorry BKK but history is against you.The U.S has been happy to create,control and maintain authoritarian regimes-as long as they are ON THEIR SIDE.

 

However,I would agree with you that prior to the present presidential incumbent foreign policy was,at least generally predictable in it's usual "Leave it to Beaver" style.

 

That's why I specifically said, "more often than not" promote local democracies. Yes, through the decades, different U.S. governments have supported authoritarian regimes, mainly as bullwarks against local communist movements. Such is the legacy of the Cold War.

 

But, at its heart, that's not what the American system is about, not what it aspires to be, and that's not what the American people generally stand for. Russia, on the other hand, makes no pretense of even trying to promote and create democracies. And the Russian system and government itself are not democracies and don't try to be under the current regime.

 

For all their various, respective faults, Russia and the U.S. are not even remotely the same. And anyone suggesting they are isn't living in the real world of facts and truth.

 

 

[Odysseus123]

Just now, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

That's why I specifically said, "more often than not" promote local democracies. Yes, through the decades, different U.S. governments have supported authoritarian regimes, mainly as bullwarks against local communist movements. Such is the legacy of the Cold War.

 

But, at its heart, that's not what the American system is about, not what it aspires to be, and that's not what the American people generally stand for. Russia, on the other hand, makes no pretense of even trying to promote and create democracies. And the Russian system and government itself are not democracies and don't try to be under the current regime.

 

For all their various, respective faults, Russia and the U.S. are not even remotely the same. And anyone suggesting they are isn't living in the real world of facts and truth.

 

 

Sorry BKK -but I have never stated that the USA and Russia are the same.

Yes-the imposition of democracy on say..Italy,Germany and Japan is,in my eyes,a great achievement but that is why I have noted the backsliding ever since.

 

"more often" has simply become "less often" as a whole slew of South American dictators (Monroe Doctrine) would attest...

 

Heck, even Ronald Reagan did not want to upset General numbskull Galtieri and his fascist cohorts when Maggie Thatcher was after their blood...

 

Crispy Creme Donuts all around and a big hello to Saudi Arabia.

 

Dualism has it's limitations,you know.Credibility down the gurgler...

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

24 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Sorry BKK -but I have never stated that the USA and Russia are the same.

 

 

I never said you made that statement. But others here posting in this thread have been making that particular argument, which I consider totally fallacious, despite the U.S.'s transgressions thru the years.

 

[Jingthing]

I voted enemy and I'm sticking to it.

They continue to attack.

That is not OK.

People, do not be suckered by World Cup public relations campaigns.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2016/12/30/politics/mccain-cyber-hearing/index.html

 

 

 

 

[Odysseus123]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I voted enemy and I'm sticking to it.

They continue to attack.

That is not OK.

People, do not be suckered by World Cup public relations campaigns.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2016/12/30/politics/mccain-cyber-hearing/index.html

 

 

 

 

I voted that they are just about average.

It is obvious that you have never gotten over the battle of Kunersdorf in 1759.

There is nothing I can do about that as 300 year old psychiatrists are in rather short supply..

 

Sorry..I can't refer you to anyone..

Edited July 11, 2018 by Odysseus123

[duanebigsby]

1 hour ago, Odysseus123 said:

Sorry BKK but history is against you.The U.S has been happy to create,control and maintain authoritarian regimes-as long as they are ON THEIR SIDE.

 

However,I would agree with you that prior to the present presidential incumbent foreign policy was,at least generally predictable in it's usual "Leave it to Beaver" style.

Correct, The US supported both the Shah and Saddam when it suited them. Leader of the free world my ass.

[Dumbastheycome]

4 hours ago, Maltsovsky said:

If you decide to start this discussion, I propose to discuss the legitimacy of the coup d'etat in Kiev, the Nazi processions, the genocide in the Donbass (you know about the region from the media, and I have friends there). Maybe you know about the tragedy in Odessa on May 2, 2014? Maybe you saw a video on YouTube about how supporters of the new government burned people alive? Or maybe you recently were in Ukraine and you know what level of life there is? Maybe you know about the aggressive mood for Russian speakers? You do not know Ukraine, Russia, our peoples, and you know about the conflict from the media. Are you sure that you are ready for a discussion?
 

My opinion - the coup in Kiev was illegal, the persecution of the leader of the country is illegal. He was a corrupt and not a good person, but that does not mean that he had to seize power in this way. Look at the change of power in Armenia. There were also protests and riots, but no one was hurt, and other people came to power who are more critical of Russia than the last leader. It's not bad. He is objective, and it is necessary to criticize Russia, but not to blame without reasons.

Crimea is a strategic point for Russia in the military plan. The fact that the Crimea has become part of the Russian Federation, I consider cunning, but within the law and without violence. Have you seen violence in the Crimea? Russia captured the Crimea? Crimea, as an autonomous republic held a referendum. There were 2 votes, about independence or joining the Russian Federation. People chose Russia. Did Crimea have legal grounds for a referendum? - Oh sure. Did Crimea have grounds to hold a referendum after the violent change of power? - Of course.
 

Who proposed the referendum? I think this is Russia. It was advantageous for us to maintain stability on the peninsula, and if the authorities did not change, there would not be these events. Despite the legality of the referendum, I'm sorry that it happened. Ukraine had to follow the path of Armenia, and the Crimea had to be Ukrainian.
 

Do not blame only Russia, you are not objective. Blame the new Ukrainian authorities, the oligarchy, and the sponsors. Russia left no other choice. He is tough, and has consequences, but, Russia was not the source of the problem.

 

Unfortunately, you do not understand well in the economy, so make such statements.

The problem was known for a long time, and sooner or later it was necessary to do it. Unfortunately, this is a problem of demography. In Russia there was a problem of birth rate in the period 1980-1990.
 

Due to the fact that in 10-20 years old pensioners will become much more than workers it was necessary to raise the retirement age. Or, workers should work 2 times more to provide all pensioners. The demographic problem has led to economic difficulties, this is a fact.

Please consider the fact that the retirement age will increase gradually until 2030. Also, amendments are made to our parliament on softening the law. Take into account that the standard of living, as well as the average life expectancy, regularly increases, and for 12 years we expect to raise it to 80 years. It will be very difficult, since the state medicine in Russia is not very good, but we are improving our skills and efficiency. Perhaps we will not be able to fulfill the plan, but we will try to do it.

Why are you so negative about our country? I was in Thailand (Pattaya, Phuket, Bangkok), and I know about your problems. And I will be glad if you can solve them.
 

Do not read the media about other countries. Communicate with people. In Russia there is also propaganda. But you have the opportunity to communicate with people, and find out the truth if you want it. Check the sources. Check the information. You and I are often told lies, but this is not a reason to hate each other. I am for creating strong and friendly relations, and believe our people think as much as I do. Who was at the World Championships can confirm that we have the same friendly people who are ready to help others. Do not get involved in politics. Do not let it interfere with you.

I agree  with your sentiment. 

I am unable to comment  further other than to say  that the reality  propaganda is used on all sides to   confuddle any  genuine  interpretation  of political agenda.

Sadly we  are all  subject to the  influence and cannot  avoid the interference even if  we would/ could/do  choose  to.

 

[Jingthing]

I voted that they are just about average.
It is obvious that you have never gotten over the battle of Kunersdorf in 1759.
There is nothing I can do about that as 300 year old psychiatrists are in rather short supply..
 
Sorry..I can't refer you to anyone..

Refer yourself.

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[Odysseus123]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Refer yourself.

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Gee..

 

No comment about the inferior tactics of Frederick the Great against the Russians (and Austrians) at Kunersdorf?

 

I'm surprised...nay alarmed..sorry to introduce a little bit of genuine HISTORY here..eh?

[Jingthing]

Gee..
 
No comment about the inferior tactics of Frederick the Great against the Russians (and Austrians) at Kunersdorf?
 
I'm surprised...nay alarmed..sorry to introduce a little bit of genuine HISTORY here..eh?

I'm talking about the current geopolitical situation. But proceed to have your fun without my involvement.

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[Odysseus123]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I'm talking about the current geopolitical situation. But proceed to have your fun without my involvement.

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There is no current geopolitical "situation" without history as it just doesn't really emerge from thin air.

 

I presume that you wouldn't really like to comment about the battle of Nomonhan (Khalkan Gol) either..?

 

The Masurian Lakes?

Tannenburg?

Kursk?

Edited July 11, 2018 by Odysseus123

[Jingthing]

There is no current geopolitical "situation" without history as it just doesn't really emerge from thin air.
 
I presume that you wouldn't really like to comment about the battle of Nomonhan (Khalkan Gol) either..?
 
The Masurian Lakes?
Tannenburg?
Kursk?

I understand the Russkies are wicked paranoid. They demand to dominate or even occupy their neighbors. Keep NATO strong until we can remove Putin compromised "trump."

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[Odysseus123]

17 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I understand the Russkies are wicked paranoid. They demand to dominate or even occupy their neighbors. Keep NATO strong until we can remove Putin compromised "trump."

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As for "wicked,paranoid"-projection is a bemusing thing..

 

From the McCarthy era till now..

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by Odysseus123

[Jingthing]

As for "wicked,paranoid"-projection is a bemusing thing..
 
From the McCarthy era till now..
 

Nothing to do with the McCarthy era. This isn't about reds. It's about Putin.

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[Odysseus123]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Nothing to do with the McCarthy era. This isn't about reds. It's about Putin.

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Sure.

 

It is all about the present "package" is it not?

 

Do you have any knowledge of Russian or European history at all?

 

For example-and without recourse to google-do you know where the main Russian army was in autumn,1814?

Edited July 11, 2018 by Odysseus123

[Jingthing]

I know about Cossacks and how they raped my Grandmother before she fled to Cuba at age 15. Does that work for you?

 

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[Odysseus123]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

I know about Cossacks and how they raped my Grandmother before she fled to Cuba at age 15. Does that work for you?

 

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Nope..

 

You are big on the "Russian Package"

 

Do you have any knowledge of Russian history at all?

 

Your grandmother fled to Cuba when?Under the Tsars or the Bolsheviks?

Did she live under Battista-or flee under Castro?

 

[Odysseus123]

By  the way-the Russian army was in Paris in the  fall of 1814.

Along with Prussians,Austrians,British and smaller nations..here is a splendid tune to commemorate the event,,

 

The Downfall of Paris..

 

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by Odysseus123

[Jingthing]

Nope..

 

You are big on the "Russian Package"

 

Do you have any knowledge of Russian history at all?

 

Your grandmother fled to Cuba when?Under the Tsars or the Bolsheviks?

Did she live under Battista-or flee under Castro?

 

The Czars honey. You are welcome to refer to Russian history but there is a situation going on now as well. I'm sure I know more about Russian history than the US president but you know more than me. Congrats.

 

For example the fact that democracy never fully took root in Russia. That is definitely related to their history.

 

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[Odysseus123]

Just now, Jingthing said:

The Czars honey. You are welcome to refer to Russian history but there is a situation going on now as well. I'm sure I know more about Russian history than the US president but you know more than me. Congrats.

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The Czars?

 

You are aware when Nicholas II was assassinated?

 

You would  also be aware that there is  no present without the past..

 

M grandmother was 79 years of age when we took her to Mont St Quentin on the Somme where her brother died in 1918.

 

She was born in 1899.

[Odysseus123]

59 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The Czars honey. You are welcome to refer to Russian history but there is a situation going on now as well. I'm sure I know more about Russian history than the US president but you know more than me. Congrats.

 

For example the fact that democracy never fully took root in Russia. That is definitely related to their history.

 

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Jingthing.

 

Time is rather like a piece of cloth..there is a warp and weft. and whilst you might point at a particular section and examine it I prefer to look at the wider garment...

 

Anyway..a pleasure talking to you and thanks for keeping it civil.Goodnight,

 

Ody.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Odysseus123 said:

The Czars?

 

You are aware when Nicholas II was assassinated?

 

You would  also be aware that there is  no present without the past..

 

M grandmother was 79 years of age when we took her to Mont St Quentin on the Somme where her brother died in 1918.

 

She was born in 1899.

So condescending.

[Morch]

19 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

How on earth did you come to this conclusion from ANY of my posts?? ?

 

I guess the post you made just before that one is a good starting point as any.

[Morch]

19 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I had to think for a moment there!  Presumably RT is something along the lines of russia today?

 

The answer is - NEVER.

 

Why on earth would anyone "tune into RT or visit their website" (assuming my guess is correct)?  We have enough propaganda from our own countries to sift through, without looking into other countries' propaganda!

 

If you indeed do not follow or read RT, ever - then your take on the supposed propaganda equivalency are about as dodgy as RT "reports". To put it in other words, what you apparently imagine to be government propaganda is the light version. The "from our own countries" bit is odd - do you imagine that all information/media outlets in Western countries are controlled? Western media outlets routinely criticize governments. Some do it along partisan lines, some in a more objective or even-handed manner. But the point is it's always there, one way or another.

[Morch]

17 hours ago, Odysseus123 said:

"we don't want to go back to a cold war"

But the US sure does.

For two reasons-the first being their primitive dualistic notions of the world as they are are more comfortable with this notion than any other.

The second being is that there is money in them thar guns..lots and lots of glorious money..world without end..glorious money...

 

So, when it's something that's negative toward Russia, distinction between government and people are advocated. When it comes to the US, not so much. And, of course, nothing in Russia's (or Russia's government) actions could be remotely construed as confrontational, right? It's all about the US. Pull the other one.

 

The two rubbish generalizations don't even merit a comment.