“Buddy dive” planned for Tham Luang rescue – news report

[Spock]

There are too many keyboard critics with no knowledge of diving or what has been discussed or achieved behind closed doors and all too ready to criticise all thing Thai. For all we know, foreigners may have been heavily involved in the decision making process. It's a kind of 'damned if you do damned if you don't' scenario for authorities responsible for the decision to take the kids out today. Even the foreign experts have had differing opinions regarding the best means of rescue, and everyone has admitted that cave diving is hardly recommended for young boys who cannot even swim. I imagine there has been a frantic search for shafts that would preclude the need to dive the boys out. In the end, threatening rains and a drop in oxygen levels forced an unpalatable but seemingly necessary risky solution to be applied. 

 

I just don't get the need for people to criticise Thai authorities on the basis of their very limited knowledge or experience of this kind of scenario. There must be a huge chance some of failure, but you can only admire the courage and skills of the rescuers and empathise with the plight of the children. I will be devastated if any of the boys don't make it out, but at the same time, I have huge faith in the professionalism and dedication of those involved in bringing them out. Good luck to all concerned! 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Spock

[HHTel]

1 hour ago, JAZZDOG said:

Sheryl, I hear what you are saying and totally agree the rank and file has done an exceptional job executing what they were ordered to do. It is unfortunate leadership and management was not up to the task and that is why we face the dire emergency today extracting these kids in less than ideal conditions. If this was to be the course of action it should have gone down two days ago, not on the day that was forecasted for rain for the last week. The underling theme throughout has been reaction as opposed to proaction. Again let me say the folks carrying out the orders are heroes all. The kids have been outstanding. There can be nothing but accolades to the coach who actually insured we would have a rescue rather than recovery mission. IMHO these are the reasons why we have such a hectic last minute emergency situation that could possibly have been avoided leaving better options.

From day one central control should have been established with an experienced crisis emergency expert in charge, not the governor. The emergency should have been segregated into different tasks each with priorities so as to be able to multi-task more efficiently. Absolute primary items from 7/24 should have been essential life support for when the kids were found and of course the search for the kids. The second part went as well as could be expected and much was learned about the effect rain might have on the rescue. The one glaring misstep was a lack of pumping capacity which still exists, no excuses in 2018 to have more than less. Possibility that the kids would already be out if leadership was more proactive.

 

From the morning of 7/24 there should have been a committee of experts focusing only on life support once the kids were found.

-food/water

-breathable air

-sheltering in place

-logistics in case of rising water

 

The keyway set up by the divers was excellent and could have handled everything needed to insure long term survival buying time for a preferable option than we are witnessing today.

-food/water>>>>done but it was stated a 4 month supply would be sent? Where was it to be stored

 

-breathable air>>> this turned out to be the most difficult and was compounded by the fact there were hundreds in the cave. Once the rain began, fewer in the cave may have eliminated the problem. In any case a contingency plan should have been ready and lines installed during the search process or undertaken as soon as the kids were located. No proactive thinking here turned out to be critical. ie; wasted time on fiber optic could have used to piping in air. 

 

The last two items I posted an idea that was totally vetoed. I still think it is a proven, tested system which could have been delivered anywhere a diver could go. This could have been in place the day after the kids were found and would have completed the list of vital requirements to keep the kids safe until better options became available or the dry season arrived. If you could deliver one of these units you could deliver as many as required. They could house the kids and seals, doctors and even a tutor to keep the kids busy. Storage and waste

The units measure: 3'10" long x 1'10" wide x 1'8" high. or about the size of an eight year old child.

 

http://dewolfmaritime.com/products/1/docs/datasheet/8TOSRContRound.pdf

Should this extraction be aborted I hope the management can learn from it and become more proactive. At this point we have to go with the  poor hand we've been dealt, hope for the best, prepare for the worst which I believe is where leadership dropped the ball. I am not bashing anyone just trying to illustrate how things could have been done better or possibly be implemented should this extraction fail to materialize.

Ordered!!??  Bad choice of words.

 

What a shame you weren't in charge.  The boys would be at home watching the World Cup and we'd all be celebrating.

 

I wish I was as clever as you who seems to know more than world renowned experts.

 

[JAZZDOG]

1 minute ago, HHTel said:

Ordered!!??  Bad choice of words.

 

What a shame you weren't in charge.  The boys would be at home watching the World Cup and we'd all be celebrating.

 

I wish I was as clever as you who seems to know more than world renowned experts.

 

Rank and file execute orders of leadership. Citizens not only have a right but a duty to question leadership when it drops the ball which I believe is the case. Are we to believe all the different elements were just winging it with no central control? Really!

 

As for your other snide comments maybe your time behind the keyboard might be better spent adding rational arguments about the specific points I brought up than attempting to win browny points and "likes". Weak! 

[BangkokSausage]

1 hour ago, JAZZDOG said:

Sheryl, I hear what you are saying and totally agree the rank and file has done an exceptional job executing what they were ordered to do. It is unfortunate leadership and management was not up to the task and that is why we face the dire emergency today extracting these kids in less than ideal conditions. If this was to be the course of action it should have gone down two days ago, not on the day that was forecasted for rain for the last week. The underling theme throughout has been reaction as opposed to proaction. Again let me say the folks carrying out the orders are heroes all. The kids have been outstanding. There can be nothing but accolades to the coach who actually insured we would have a rescue rather than recovery mission. IMHO these are the reasons why we have such a hectic last minute emergency situation that could possibly have been avoided leaving better options.

From day one central control should have been established with an experienced crisis emergency expert in charge, not the governor. The emergency should have been segregated into different tasks each with priorities so as to be able to multi-task more efficiently. Absolute primary items from 7/24 should have been essential life support for when the kids were found and of course the search for the kids. The second part went as well as could be expected and much was learned about the effect rain might have on the rescue. The one glaring misstep was a lack of pumping capacity which still exists, no excuses in 2018 to have more than less. Possibility that the kids would already be out if leadership was more proactive.

 

From the morning of 7/24 there should have been a committee of experts focusing only on life support once the kids were found.

-food/water

-breathable air

-sheltering in place

-logistics in case of rising water

 

The keyway set up by the divers was excellent and could have handled everything needed to insure long term survival buying time for a preferable option than we are witnessing today.

-food/water>>>>done but it was stated a 4 month supply would be sent? Where was it to be stored

 

-breathable air>>> this turned out to be the most difficult and was compounded by the fact there were hundreds in the cave. Once the rain began, fewer in the cave may have eliminated the problem. In any case a contingency plan should have been ready and lines installed during the search process or undertaken as soon as the kids were located. No proactive thinking here turned out to be critical. ie; wasted time on fiber optic could have used to piping in air. 

 

The last two items I posted an idea that was totally vetoed. I still think it is a proven, tested system which could have been delivered anywhere a diver could go. This could have been in place the day after the kids were found and would have completed the list of vital requirements to keep the kids safe until better options became available or the dry season arrived. If you could deliver one of these units you could deliver as many as required. They could house the kids and seals, doctors and even a tutor to keep the kids busy. Storage and waste

The units measure: 3'10" long x 1'10" wide x 1'8" high. or about the size of an eight year old child.

 

http://dewolfmaritime.com/products/1/docs/datasheet/8TOSRContRound.pdf

Should this extraction be aborted I hope the management can learn from it and become more proactive. At this point we have to go with the  poor hand we've been dealt, hope for the best, prepare for the worst which I believe is where leadership dropped the ball. I am not bashing anyone just trying to illustrate how things could have been done better or possibly be implemented should this extraction fail to materialize.

Wow what a huge rant over what is always horrible reporting and much lost in translation , so bad I pay zero attention to any of it. At one stage even all the international media were spewing out the opposite of what we were reading here.

Take a chill pill dude and don't believe everything you read in the press ,at best your being naive, 50% especially here is just made up... oh yeah that's right loss of face for a reporter to not have a news story lol

Edited July 8, 2018 by BangkokSausage

[smutcakes]

6 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

Rank and file execute orders of leadership. Citizens not only have a right but a duty to question leadership when it drops the ball which I believe is the case. Are we to believe all the different elements were just winging it with no central control? Really!

 

As for your other snide comments maybe your time behind the keyboard might be better spent adding rational arguments about the specific points I brought up than attempting to win browny points and "likes". Weak! 

Just so we are clear, please can you inform us who is making the decisions in the rescue operation? I presume you have expert knowledge of what is going on down there.

[JAZZDOG]

13 minutes ago, HHTel said:

Ordered!!??  Bad choice of words.

 

What a shame you weren't in charge.  The boys would be at home watching the World Cup and we'd all be celebrating.

 

I wish I was as clever as you who seems to know more than world renowned experts.

 

If world renowned crisis experts had been in control from day 1 I firmly believe there could have been an opportunity squandered and the Kids and their coach would be packing up heading to Moscow. 

[scorecard]

14 hours ago, Nigeone said:

Yes agreed but instructions before going through the submersible areas and on coming out the other side going on the maps of the cave would be a benefit .most of the journey if we are to believe the maps is walking .Can't see them being able to sign with the lads who are really completely beginners and would be surprised if they have been able to teach and it register reckonised dive language 

 

Can a local close to the caves please give an update on any rain today or what seems imminent, thanks. 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by scorecard

[Laza 45]

4 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

Can a local Chiang Rai local please give an update on any rain today or what seems imminent, thanks. 

 

 

https://www.accuweather.com/en/th/chiang-rai/317549/weather-forecast/317549

[GBW]

3 minutes ago, Laza 45 said:

https://www.accuweather.com/en/th/chiang-rai/317549/weather-forecast/317549

or accuweather  Mae Sai ?

[BangkokSausage]

9 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

If world renowned crisis experts had been in control from day 1 I firmly believe there could have been an opportunity squandered and the Kids and their coach would be packing up heading to Moscow. 

You showing your naivety again. Nobody can formulate a rescue plan form all this day 1 your talking about. Arm chair 20/20 hindsight vision is something your placing your "expertise on"

Its takes time to formulate a plan. Search and location and to actually SEE whats inside that cave and if it was at all passable or if they would find the boys all dead. It takes days of organizing so put away your crystal ball..or hand it over so real rescuers can benefit ?

[Kohsamida]

Not sure if this is allowed...For anyone wanting live stream coverage - 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Kohsamida]

For anyone wanting livestream coverage, link is [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIsh7TcjGFk]

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Kohsamida

[JAZZDOG]

5 minutes ago, BangkokSausage said:

Wow what a huge rant over what is always horrible reporting and much lost in translation , so bad I pay zero attention to any of it. At one stage even all the international media were spewing out the opposite of what we were reading here.

Take a chill pill dude and don't believe everything you read in the press ,at best your being naive, 50% especially here is just made up... oh yeah that's right loss of face for a reporter to not have a news story lol

Look here, The Governor stated Friday night that this extraction is required because although it was thought the kids could stay in place it is now an emergency because conditions had changed? Of course conditions are going to change. The problem was instead of being proactive in having planned and executed contingencies to deal with these changes they react to these changes they all knew or should have known were coming.

 

They didn't know it was going to rain?

Water would rise?

Fresh air would become an issue? 

The kids would need shelter of some sort, going to sit in mud for three months?

 

This isn't rocket science, just common sense. The authorities calling the shots need to be called out . I call BS on those stating " We need to respect the authorities for making the hard choices" . Their lack of forethought created a situation that lead to only one choice. Once again I have total respect for all the guys on the ground. The authorities entrusted with the initial planning not so much.

[Kohsamida]

13 minutes ago, Laza 45 said:

https://www.accuweather.com/en/th/chiang-rai/317549/weather-forecast/317549

You can see real time radar for Chiang Rai at http://weather.tmd.go.th/criLoop.php

 

[sandrabbit]

9 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

Look here, The Governor stated Friday night that this extraction is required because although it was thought the kids could stay in place it is now an emergency because conditions had changed? Of course conditions are going to change. The problem was instead of being proactive in having planned and executed contingencies to deal with these changes they react to these changes they all knew or should have known were coming.

 

They didn't know it was going to rain?

Water would rise?

Fresh air would become an issue? 

The kids would need shelter of some sort, going to sit in mud for three months?

 

This isn't rocket science, just common sense. The authorities calling the shots need to be called out . I call BS on those stating " We need to respect the authorities for making the hard choices" . Their lack of forethought created a situation that lead to only one choice. Once again I have total respect for all the guys on the ground. The authorities entrusted with the initial planning not so much.

My wife has just told me that 2 children have been rescued .... sorry 3

Edited July 8, 2018 by sandrabbit

[BangkokSausage]

Look here, The Governor stated Friday night that this extraction is required because although it was thought the kids could stay in place it is now an emergency because conditions had changed? Of course conditions are going to change. The problem was instead of being proactive in having planned and executed contingencies to deal with these changes they react to these changes they all knew or should have known were coming.
 
They didn't know it was going to rain?
Water would rise?
Fresh air would become an issue? 
The kids would need shelter of some sort, going to sit in mud for three months?
 
This isn't rocket science, just common sense. The authorities calling the shots need to be called out . I call BS on those stating " We need to respect the authorities for making the hard choices" . Their lack of forethought created a situation that lead to only one choice. Once again I have total respect for all the guys on the ground. The authorities entrusted with the initial planning not so much.

In fact he was right
They waited until they drained as much as possible and the water subsided. They would have kept at it until rain was imminent and then they went in

Because of waiting they got the best shot at the lowest water

Ain't rocket science and good planning to give the boys the best shot

[Kohsamida]

Hard to believe but I think four boys have now exited the caves!  I'm not picking it up on any live streams but check this out:

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1047090-first-two-boys-rescued-from-tham-luang-cave/

[JAZZDOG]

25 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

Just so we are clear, please can you inform us who is making the decisions in the rescue operation? I presume you have expert knowledge of what is going on down there.

I think we all know the government and military is were the buck stops. Of course if things go south the buck will assuredly stop elsewhere.

I don't pretend to know who was making decisions but I am convinced more could have been done early on to avoid  this high risk option with a degree of confidence that the majority agree is not that great. This is mainly voiced by the professional diving community. IMHO whoever was in the lead took us to a place we didn't have to go. It makes little difference who they are as much as what they failed to anticipate at the same time it was staring them in the face.

[sandrabbit]

5 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

I think we all know the government and military is were the buck stops. Of course if things go south the buck will assuredly stop elsewhere.

I don't pretend to know who was making decisions but I am convinced more could have been done early on to avoid  this high risk option with a degree of confidence that the majority agree is not that great. This is mainly voiced by the professional diving community. IMHO whoever was in the lead took us to a place we didn't have to go. It makes little difference who they are as much as what they failed to anticipate at the same time it was staring them in the face.

when in a ditch stop digging

[Kohsamida]

Hard to believe but I think four boys have now exited the caves!  I'm not picking it up on any live streams but check this out:

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1047090-first-two-boys-rescued-from-tham-luang-cave/

[Kohsamida]

Hard to believe but I think four boys have now exited the caves!  I'm not picking it up on any live streams but check this out:

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1047090-first-two-boys-rescued-from-tham-luang-cave/

[Laza 45]

29 minutes ago, Kohsamida said:

Hard to believe but I think four boys have now exited the caves!  I'm not picking it up on any live streams but check this out:

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1047090-first-two-boys-rescued-from-tham-luang-cave/

...my wife has been watching TV.. 2 ambulances seen leaving the site.. she thinks 2 more boys may have made it to chamber 3.. out from the worst part of the journey out.. information is sketchy..

[GTgrizzly]

9 hours ago, todlad said:

Another anti Thai doomsday monger. Your expertise seems to know no bounds.

Theres always gonna be those type of people Tod

I  would have thought that for just once on here that there would be no negative comments on this story but been proven wrong there a few times already

But they are amongst they must have a very sad life

[todlad]

2 hours ago, JAZZDOG said:

What sources do you need. One only needs to have followed this operation to come to the conclusions I stated. Ask yourself these questions and get back with me.

 

-Why did they not have more than enough pumping capacity delivered from day 1. They were still bringing in pumps on day 14? No excuses for that.

 

-Why did they not have a contingency plan for piping in air from day 1. They have had 16 days to install air lines?

 

-Why did they have no plan to shelter the kids in place that would float?

 

I don't need sources to see it never took place and because it never took place is why we are resorting to this emergency extraction all agree is very high risk.

 

I don't know you so you might have great expertise: other posters here are divers and do on.

What is basically wrong with your position is that Thailand should have been able perfectly to anticipate this incident. then you assume Thailand already has all of the resources and plans in place to undertake an immediate rescue.

Be fair, it would take anyone several days to understand the situation whoever they were. Then they needed to garner the resources needed.

Remember the Chile operation took a long time, albeit in dodgy circumstances.

The Russian submarine, Irkutsk, sat squarely on the seabed for a week or so before being rescued by a British team. Russia. mighty Russia couldn't help itself.

[Spock]

Reporting 6 out now!

Edited July 8, 2018 by Spock

[todlad]

54 minutes ago, GTgrizzly said:

Theres always gonna be those type of people Tod

I  would have thought that for just once on here that there would be no negative comments on this story but been proven wrong there a few times already

But they are amongst they must have a very sad life

I agree and the darkest parts of my time here come when I read some of the absolute bilge written here. I am ready for someone to say, don't read it then! My answer is, I learn a lot here from the new and old timers about all sorts of things, not only about Thailand. So I will keep reading.

[JAZZDOG]

[chama]

21 hours ago, darksidedog said:

While I totally understand the sentiment in getting them out, I do hope they are doing the right thing. Even a single death from being hasty is unacceptable. I wish them every success possible and hope the kids are all reunited with their families. To wake up in the morning hearing they are safe would be the most welcome news possible. This is a drama that needs resolution, but of the right kind, given the effort and sacrifice made already.

Agreed, but to do nothing and lose them would be worse than to make the best move and deal with the consequences. The whole world is watching, and to a large degree are invested in the success of this mission. We are all praying for a swift and successful ending.

[bannork]

6 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

Is that from today or is it from a rescue already mentioned occurring some time ago? The water looks remarkably clear.

[bannork]

To the waterboys!