Food for running - I've hit a plateau

[simon43]

I'm running 5 Km after work every day in the gym.  (I used to jog for 10 Km, but reduced the distance because I was getting bored running for 10 Km..).

 

I run 5 Km at 12 kph ==> 25 minutes.  I gradually increased my speed from an initial 9.5 kph, 2 months ago.

 

I want to continue to increase my speed, but I seem to have hit a plateau.  some days I run 5 Km fine at 12 kph, other days I stop after 3 Km because my legs are getting tired.

 

I monitor my heart rate throughout my run and on days when my legs get tired, my final HR is a few beats higher than the final rate for when I complete 5 Km successfully (about 166 bpm, compared to 163 bpm for a successful 5 Km run).

 

I wonder if I can reduce the tiredness in my lower legs by changing/modifying my diet.  I eat mainly salads, fresh fruit and nuts, some lean chicken.  I have started drinking whey protein during the day, but I'm not sure if any of these foods/supplements will help to reduce my leg tiredness.

 

Any suggestions what I can do to get over this plateau and to increase my running pace without getting tired?  I do listen to 160 pace music tracks while running - that has certainly helped me to increase my running pace.

[lovelomsak]

I hope this helps. Not what you ask for but something that may help

 I ran for years.Never better than a 6 minute mile but ran a lot. I used to run 10 mile road races back when it was miles not kilometers. I used to simply change my pace when the legs got tired or I got a stitch or lost concentration and got bored.. Try  just changing the pace then work your way back up or over the pace you had set.

  Another thing I did when I got older and used the thread mill is I would try to  reduce the time to run a distance. Pick the pace up earlier in the run and see how time you take off. Or for the last 1/2 kilo pick up the pace. Boredom was my biggest problem so I kept changing and checking just to keep the mind active and not notice how tired I was.

  Do not try and improve the time very day but try and improve the time over 2 weeks or 3 weeks but keep changing pace and moving up the pace earlier in the run.every day.Play with it and see what results you get.

  If endurance is the problem do different things different days also. Do maybe once a week where you run hard for 1 kilo,then walk for 1 kilo then jog for 1 kilo then run hard again etc do this repeatedly about 3 times in the workout. But only once a week at most

  

Edited July 10, 2018 by lovelomsak

[Bob12345]

2 hours ago, simon43 said:

I wonder if I can reduce the tiredness in my lower legs by changing/modifying my diet.  I eat mainly salads, fresh fruit and nuts, some lean chicken.  I have started drinking whey protein during the day, but I'm not sure if any of these foods/supplements will help to reduce my leg tiredness.

How did you come up with this diet?

How many calories do you eat, and how many calories do you burn on a day?

 

Proteins are used to build muscle and for recovery, eating "some lean chicken and a protein shake" might mean you are too low in proteins to recover from your previous exercise, let alone start building a bit of extra leg muscle. Taking a whey protein shake during the day makes no sense to me.

 

Carbohydrates are stored energy which you will use during your run. You eat "fresh fruits" which will mostly be sugars which will either burn quickly or get stored as fat. In a 25 minutes run you barely use fats.

 

You will need fats for your overall health, I guess the nuts will cover that already although you didnt specify how much fats they provide.

 

 

To improve:

1. you need to recover from your training -> make sure you are in a slight caloric surplus

2. you need proteins to recover and build muscle -> eat more proteins, preferably "real foods" that digest slow (no whey as that digest quick). Think: dairy, meats, eggs, soy, etc.

3. you need carbohydrates to have energy available during your run -> get some quality carb sources in your diet like brown rice, oats, decent bread, etc.

 

Calculate your needs of proteins, fats, and carbs and divide that over the day in 3-6 meals (whatever you prefer and are able to combine with your work). 

 

Since you have a heart rate monitor, why don't you use it to set up heart rate intervals and train within intervals?

Thats what the thing is for: you help you train. Not just to give you feedback in one number at the end of your training.

To improve your total time you should not just run the same distance over and over again as fast as you can; this might have worked in the past but after your "beginner improvements" are over you might want to approach it in a smarter way.

(get a book about it, or google it... i used to base my training up "total heart rate training" by Joe Friel)

 

I would also recommend to run outdoors as that is often less boring. Parks enough in most cities with tons of cute girls and funny oldies doing Chinese classes with slow movements or packs of people bouncing around on loud music.

[connda]

Look into the science behind Keto.

[ChrisKC]

From what the OP has said and the very reasonable and helpful comments by Bob 12345, the nutrition element of health and fitness will not improve times much.

 

interval training in either timed intervals or fartlek (going fast(er) and not especially timed) and jogging between the faster runs is definitely a good plan. Try running 3 or 4 intervals of say 30 seconds at faster than your average running speed. Jog down between the faster runs.

 

I can provide a running schedule of greater detail say for the next six weeks. PM me if you would like me to do that and to explain why I do it that way! It is safe, will create strength for extra speed and build stamina for endurance.

 

Regards from Chris

[Bob12345]

Agree with Chris, you need a running plan as improving your running times is not just running, running, and running.

You need intervals, longer distances at slower speeds, running drills, core exercises, etc. 

By integrating this into your trainings, you will have much more different things to do making it less boring.

 

Now you are just pounding it out on the treadmill which is boring, spice it up a bit and soon you will find motivation again to go back to 10K's.

[Briggsy]

Are you doing a warm up? You want to raise your heart rate to the rate that gives you 12 km/h (you said 160 +) over a number of minutes, preferably 20 minutes. If you are going straight to 160 beats per minute from say, 80 to 100 beats per minutes (walking rate), your pulmonary - cardiac system will not be working optimally and you will have to work noticeably harder to deliver the required oxygen to your muscles. It is possible that your run is actually your warm-up and you stop just when you are warmed up!

[Aussieroaming]

1 hour ago, Bob12345 said:

Agree with Chris, you need a running plan as improving your running times is not just running, running, and running.

You need intervals, longer distances at slower speeds, running drills, core exercises, etc. 

By integrating this into your trainings, you will have much more different things to do making it less boring.

 

Now you are just pounding it out on the treadmill which is boring, spice it up a bit and soon you will find motivation again to go back to 10K's.

I agree Simon, it sounds like you are suffering from groundhog day syndrome. I ran for more than 20 years and i was always mixing it up, changing routes, changing distances and changing speed. I find 5 km harder than 10km, because it takes time to get into the zone, where you can get the mind to drift off. 

 

I think that the major contributors to increasing spèed and endurance are:

1. Doing a mix of run distances

2. Upper body weight training around the neck and shoulders, normally a godsend once you hit the 20km mark and up.

3. Regular stretching, especially through the quads, hips and lower back

4. Finding a gait (candence) that makes you feel loose and fluid in the hips.

5. Setting goals that are achievable and can be changed when they lose their impact.

 

I did find music can really make a difference to pace if you choose the right tunes.

 

And i have always preferred to run hungry, for some reason my body seems to cope better.

 

But like everyone it doesnt get easier with age, even though I still run regularly.

 

[Aussieroaming]

To be frank your training improvements over the last 2 years have been pretty impressive. Are you contemplating participating in any organised run events? 

[simon43]

Thanks for all the replies.  Actually, I'm very surprised that anyone has taken the time to reply to my post!

 

A few comments:

 

let alone start building a bit of extra leg muscle

 

I don't think it is lack of leg muscle.  I cycle to/from work every day, plus lengthy cycle rides at the weekend.  Frankly, my legs are the most muscular part of my body ?

 

I should have said that I run on the treadmill right now because it's the monsoon season.  Once that is over, I will return to a mix of treadmill running and road running (actually around the large gardens of the hotel where I live).

 

I do stretch before I start to run, then run the first few hundred meters at a slower pace, gradually building up to about 12 kph.  Then I use the pace/beat of my headphone music to maintain that speed throughout the run.

 

I agree that I probably should vary the speed/distance etc.  I used to run (jog) fartleks last year.  On the treadmill, I run a hill-run profile, with inclines that vary from about 3.5 to 7.0%.  So that type of running profile should help to build up my stamina.

(However, altering the running pace in short bursts might be a little difficult to program into the treadmill - I will have to ask the gym trainer about this).

 

I do try to gradually increase my running speed over the month, but do this very gradually, to avoid injury to my legs/feet.  So far, I have been quite lucky in not having any serious injury.  If I feel a twinge after a run, then I rest for a couple of days.

 

Briggsy, sorry to confuse!  What I mean is that I listen to techno music that has a 160 bpm tempo.  I start jogging at say 10 kph, (taking small steps at a 160 bpm pace).  Then I increase my running speed, still keeping to 160 bpm tempo.  My heart rate starts off at some low rate (my resting HR is about 42, used to be 70 before I took up running...).  As I run, my HR slowly increases until it's about 160 bpm after 5 km.  On days when I'm tired, it can increase to maybe 167 or so, at which point I start to get a little out of breath.  Once I stop the run, my HR drops back to 140 within 1 or 1.5 minutes, and then continues to drop of course.

 

Finally a reply to AussieRoaming:

 

I have amazed myself at how my fitness and general well-being have improved since the beginning of last year.

 

Right now, If I ran a 10 Km road race at 12 kph, I would WIN the Myanmar Bagan annual 10 Km race, which takes place every year and attracts both local and international amateur runners.  The typical winning time is just over 50 minutes.

 

Note - I would win outright, not according to any age-adjusted time.....  At 60 years old, I feel that would be quite a personal achievement ?

 

 

[tropo]

Have you considered running every other day? Even better, only 3 times a week with weekends off? Addicted runners, which is what you've become, find the concept of giving the body ample rest time very hard to stomach. 

 

That's going to yield much better performance than trying to alter your diet. I'm pretty sure that in your current state of addiction you won't try it, but if you did I'd put money down you'll start running faster and enjoying it more.

 

As you're nearly the same age as me (I'm a year your junior) and both hard training older athletes, I think I have earned the right to state to you the obvious. How long do you think you can improve? I've already long accepted the inevitability of the decline with age and the need to take it easier. Why haven't you? It's not a negative concept, but a positive one. You can accept your limits and still improve, but in a safer, more rational way. Think of the longer term rather than stressing over daily performance.

 

I know you're a recent startup (or re-startup) whereas I've never had much time off in over 40 years of regular exercising, so you won't be so in tune to a decline due to aging as you don't have a long history of performance results to measure yourself by. That might mean you can still improve your performance some before having to accept the inevitable decline or at the very least, plateau.

 

From where I'm sitting, the only problem you have is having to continually feel the need to run faster. 

 

For example, I row and SkiErg up to 6 times a week (lately even 7 days), but I don't concern myself with performance. That's a heavy load off your mind if you can just enjoy exercising without the pressure of always having to go faster, further or harder. That's the benefit I get using machines where I can easily vary the intensity, time and distance so often that it's hard to compare to previous results - I'm always changing time, pace and resistance. I don't ever do speed trials to measure progress.

 

Here's an example of what can happen if you always concern yourself with results. My wife stopped rowing because she was always obsessed with rowing as hard or harder than she did the days before. It just became so hard and burdensome that she quit. It was just so hard and unenjoyable she lost her urge to continue. I predicted that, but she didn't want to listen. You have immediate and constant feedback on a rowing machine (and SkiErg) right on the screen in front of your face, so it's hard to avoid. I suggested that I cover the rowing data, but she didn't listen. Of course on a treadmill, you would have a similar "problem".

 

Not being focused on performance doesn't mean you're slacking off and taking it easy. It's just a change of focus.

[simon43]

Hi Tropo

 

Actually, I am not obsessed about running faster.  I want to be able to run 5 Km at a pace which my body/age are happy with.

 

Right now, that seems to be 12 kph.  Personally, I doubt if I can increase much upon that without really taking this whole running thing much more seriously.  Even if I did follow a running program in my current location, and increased my speed etc, I think that I would be disappointed in the future, since a move to another town or country might find me without similar training facilities.

 

I'm currently living in Naypyitaw.  The primary reason why I go to the gym daily, cycle daily etc is simply that there is **** all to do in this town!!  This capital city is under strict military control, where I'm not allowed to rent a house or condo, (I must live in a hotel), where I'm not allowed to fraternise with the local gals (who would be too scared to respond anyway), where I'm followed discretely by the police if I venture out after dark....

 

So I spend my leisure time at the gym.  However, before my dangly bits drop off due to lack of use, I will probably return to live in Thailand next year, where the lure of other leisure time activities will no doubt negatively impact my running efforts ?

[balo]

2 hours ago, simon43 said:

where I'm followed discretely by the police if I venture out after dark....

 

Sounds terrible , that's why you visit Thailand often I guess .

I hope they pay you well. 

 

I want to visit for a holiday , but doesn't sound like much fun . 

 

 

 

[tropo]

2 hours ago, simon43 said:

Hi Tropo

 

Actually, I am not obsessed about running faster.  I want to be able to run 5 Km at a pace which my body/age are happy with.

 

Right now, that seems to be 12 kph.  Personally, I doubt if I can increase much upon that without really taking this whole running thing much more seriously.  Even if I did follow a running program in my current location, and increased my speed etc, I think that I would be disappointed in the future, since a move to another town or country might find me without similar training facilities.

 

I'm currently living in Naypyitaw.  The primary reason why I go to the gym daily, cycle daily etc is simply that there is **** all to do in this town!!  This capital city is under strict military control, where I'm not allowed to rent a house or condo, (I must live in a hotel), where I'm not allowed to fraternise with the local gals (who would be too scared to respond anyway), where I'm followed discretely by the police if I venture out after dark....

 

So I spend my leisure time at the gym.  However, before my dangly bits drop off due to lack of use, I will probably return to live in Thailand next year, where the lure of other leisure time activities will no doubt negatively impact my running efforts ?

That does sound like a very tough environment to live in. Don't be surprised if you move to Thailand and not focus on running quite so much your performance improves. Also, your access to good food will improve. I thought you mentioned awhile back that you're now able to live in an apartment?

[shadowofacloud]

I suggest you read a bit on the theory of training for running. There is a major book by Tim Noakes - "Lore of Running", which is quite scientific, but it contains virtually all you need to know... There also countless others - different schools, different methods, a whole universe.

 

 In general:

 1. If you run every day at the same pace, then you run too much - your volume may be OK, but the intensity is too high. If you are over 40 (or so) - you need at least two days of rest per week. If you are younger, one day may be sufficient. Basically, your problems seem to stem form the fact, that you are not giving your body enough time to regenerate. Diet may help, but it won't change the basic fact that you are tired.

 

 2. Assuming you decide to have 2 resting days per week (no running - go swimming, if you really need to do something, or do some lightish yoga) you need to split your sessions between aerobic workouts (most of them) and anaerobic workouts (1-2 per week). If you are over 40 (or so), you should do just one anaerobic session per week (this may be, for example, running up a steep incline for a few minutes and then jogging on flats, or doing your 5k in a faster pace).

 

 3. You need to find a way to measure the intensity of you training - HR is good, but it needs to relate to your maximum HR. Do you know your maximum HR? You can calculate it from a formula (but please avoid the 220-age formula, as it can be misleading) or measure it experimentally, also on a treadmill. 

 

 4. Start doing slower, longer runs one per week. Add some speed work (sprints, fartleks etc) at the end of some of the aerobic sessions you do.

 

 Basically, what you need is a training plan, not a change of diet.

[simon43]

 I thought you mentioned awhile back that you're now able to live in an apartment?

 

LoL, the local police scuppered that idea - insisted that I live out of a suitcase in a hotel (nice hotel, but not the same as having a condo or house with a kitchen.

 

But if you want to keep being ridiculous, enjoy your life !

YES!  I most definitely want (and will) continue to 'be ridiculous'.  If I have time between my fitness activities, I'll visit you in the old folks' home.

 

I should mention that my fitness program isn't just running 5 Km every day.  I do some weight training activities on 2 days, cycle 20 Km on Sunday, do some swimming.  I understand that it's important to put some variation into my routines.

[Saiyok]

On 7/11/2018 at 11:00 AM, simon43 said:

 

 

 

LoL, the local police scuppered that idea - insisted that I live out of a suitcase in a hotel (nice hotel, but not the same as having a condo or house with a kitchen.

 

 

YES!  I most definitely want (and will) continue to 'be ridiculous'.  If I have time between my fitness activities, I'll visit you in the old folks' home.

 

I should mention that my fitness program isn't just running 5 Km every day.  I do some weight training activities on 2 days, cycle 20 Km on Sunday, do some swimming.  I understand that it's important to put some variation into my routines.

Sounds like overtraining. Your legs are fatigued. Whey protein is good btw, the guy dishing it needs to do more research.

 

 

[cornishcarlos]

43 minutes ago, Saiyok said:

Whey protein is good btw, the guy dishing it needs to do more research.

 

Depends what research you read. As with everything health related, there s always different arguments, for and against...

That's why it's often confusing to work out what's best.

I stick to a reasonably healthy diet, varied but consistent exercise and don't bother with supplements/potions ?

Each to their own.. I just want to be fit enough to run a 10km race whenever I choose to do so... Or ride a 50km route for fun..

 

[Saiyok]

1 minute ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

Depends what research you read. As with everything health related, there s always different arguments, for and against...

That's why it's often confusing to work out what's best.

I stick to a reasonably healthy diet, varied but consistent exercise and don't bother with supplements/potions ?

Each to their own.. I just want to be fit enough to run a 10km race whenever I choose to do so... Or ride a 50km route for fun..

 

For building muscle it's a good product. Research shows this. It is ideal just before and after workouts as it gets absorbed quicker than standard foods.

 

 

[cornishcarlos]

19 minutes ago, Saiyok said:

For building muscle it's a good product. Research shows this. It is ideal just before and after workouts as it gets absorbed quicker than standard foods.

 

 

 

http://darwinian-medicine.com/10-reasons-why-you-shouldnt-use-whey-protein-supplements/

 

There's always another research that will contradict another...

 

You decide for yourself..

[Saiyok]

1 minute ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

http://darwinian-medicine.com/10-reasons-why-you-shouldnt-use-whey-protein-supplements/

 

There's always another research that will contradict another...

 

You decide for yourself..

That was written by "Eirik".

 

Who is Eirik?

 

[cornishcarlos]

4 minutes ago, Saiyok said:

That was written by "Eirik".

 

Who is Eirik?

 

 

It doesn't matter.... The fact is, there is always some report, somewhere that will contradict what you have read in another report.

That was just a quick search, I can find lots more..

However, I'm not for or against the promotion of supplements, I just choose not to buy into it.

I get plenty of protein, carbs and fats from my normal diet. I like food, not pills/powders ?

 

But just so you know for future;

 

 

About Eirik

Eirik Garnas is the creator and owner of Darwinian-Medicine.com. His longstanding interest in nutrition, medicine, and health, topics he has spent a significant amount of time reading up on, was spurred by his desire to enhance his athletic performance and physique and overcome various health problems that had come to dominate many aspects of his life. Eirik is formally trained as a nutritionist and holds a bachelor's degree in Public Nutrition and a master's degree in Clinical Nutrition. Additionally, he is a science writer, health coach, and personal trainer schooled at the Norwegian School of Sport Sciences. During the years he's been working in the health/fitness sphere, Eirik has gone through several structured courses in order to improve his coaching skills and worked with a number of clients, both via the web and in real life. (Request to become a client) Over the past decade, Eirik has also written for a variety of health and fitness magazines and websites. You can read more about Eirik here and contact him here.

 

Enjoy.....

Edited July 16, 2018 by cornishcarlos

[Saiyok]

Just now, cornishcarlos said:

 

It doesn't matter.... The fact is, there is always some report, somewhere that will contradict what you have read in another report.

That was just a quick search, I can find lots more..

However, I'm not for or against the promotion of supplements, I just choose not to buy into it.

I get plenty of protein, carbs and fats from my normal diet. I like food, not pills/powders ?

Of course it matters. No surname, no qualifications.

 

Who takes diet advice from unknown sources?

 

Apparently some do. 

 

 

[Saiyok]

Never heard of him.

 

[Saiyok]

I see he's a Paleo promoter. Those guys are quacks.

 

[cornishcarlos]

Like I said pal, you make you're own choices...

Everyone in the selling health products business is there for your business, not your health..

You do what you gotta do...

 

 

[Saiyok]

1 minute ago, cornishcarlos said:

Like I said pal, you make you're own choices...

Everyone in the selling health products business is there for your business, not your health..

You do what you gotta do...

 

 

Yet you promote what he says. On his site he also attacks garlic.

[cornishcarlos]

1 minute ago, Saiyok said:

Yet you promote what he says. On his site he also attacks garlic.

 

You really are struggling to read my posts, or just interpreting them as you want to aid some imagined argument.

I neither promote or agree with what the guy says. I merely pointed out that there are always arguments out there for both camps.

I'm done trying to make my point with you. As I have repeatedly said, do your own thing but please don't preach "facts" that aren't facts...

See ya...

[Saiyok]

4 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

You really are struggling to read my posts, or just interpreting them as you want to aid some imagined argument.

I neither promote or agree with what the guy says. I merely pointed out that there are always arguments out there for both camps.

I'm done trying to make my point with you. As I have repeatedly said, do your own thing but please don't preach "facts" that aren't facts...

See ya...

You quoted the site so own it.

 

 

[simon43]

A quick update about my running and general fitness training.

 

I think I've reached a maximum speed for my body.  To put it more bluntly, my little legs are too short to sustain a higher pace than 13 kph!  I'm very happy that I've achieved this pace and now I've backed off from that maximum pace.  Now I jog for about 30 minutes on a treadmill hill course, starting at 9.5 kph and gradually increasing the pace up to 12.5 kph.  The incline varies from 3 to 7% during that course.

 

I can sustain that jogging programme and I'm enjoying it.

 

So now since my jogging and cardio work is all in hand, I'm now concentrating on building up the muscle in my upper body. I have low testosterone (genetic family trait for males in my family). That issue, coupled with my age, means that my arm and chest muscles are puny!

 

4 weeks ago my gym trainer designed a weights routine to increase my upper body muscle.  This was carefully designed because I have a left shoulder injury (I fell off a ladder onto concrete some years ago).  So I cannot push up weights/bars with my arms widely apart - the risk of further injury is too great).

 

I follow a training routine which concentrates on different muscle areas each day, with rest and jogging days in-between.  I've increased my whey protein daily intake.

 

After 4 weeks, there is a very visible difference in my muscle mass (meaning that it was about 0% before and now it's about 5%!!)

 

Again, I'm very happy with what I'm achieving.  It isn't easy to make myself go to the gym each day after work to push weights, but the visible and positive results are a good incentive.  I'm very patient (losing weight and getting my jogging pace to 12.5 kph took about 2 years), and look forward to the weight training results over a similar length of time.