Retirement Visa - Am I allowed to work for myself?

[khunPer]

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

Except transferring income earned in the same tax year can create a tax liability in Thailand.

If one pay tax in home country, and home country has a double-taxation agreement with Thailand, one is not transferring income for taxation in Thailand. However, I sense that most "digital nomads" live of savings from last year's income...?

Edited July 11, 2018 by khunPer

[TonyClifton]

8 hours ago, orchidfan said:

I don't transfer money here to Thailand. ....just use my foreign ATM card here. But withdraw in larger sums as the local bank charges of B220 is the same whatever the amount.

No one has told you how to take 5000 Dollars or less from your card without incurring a charge here or abroad?  

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, khunPer said:

Thanks for your opinion, but in my view OP indeed is a "Digital Nomad", operating an online business abroad only, so therefore I kindly try to help guiding to other posts about the subject, so OP can judge for himself...?

Operating an online business doesn’t necessarily make someone a ‘Digital Nomad’. And you don’t need to be abroad to be a ‘nomad’. Your view seems flawed given the OP is planning to live in Thailand. 

 

Thai authorities have not defined who they consider to be a DN other than discussing people operating online business as tourists; who by definition should not be living permanently in the country.

 

No clarification regarding ‘expats’ has been reported as far as I’m aware.

[Ebumbu]

6 hours ago, TonyClifton said:

No one has told you how to take 5000 Dollars or less from your card without incurring a charge here or abroad?  

 

No. How can one do that please? 

[seancbk]

15 hours ago, elviajero said:

Operating an online business doesn’t necessarily make someone a ‘Digital Nomad’. And you don’t need to be abroad to be a ‘nomad’. Your view seems flawed given the OP is planning to live in Thailand. 

 

Thai authorities have not defined who they consider to be a DN other than discussing people operating online business as tourists; who by definition should not be living permanently in the country.

 

No clarification regarding ‘expats’ has been reported as far as I’m aware.

 

Should not be living permanently in the country?  Says who?   

Immigration law pertaining to Tourist Visas says you can stay here as often and as long as you like, so long as you have a valid visa (within the limitations of the visa).  There is no limitation to the number of Tourist Visas you can have, therefore there is no reason why you can't live here on Tourist Visas.   
 

[balo]

If I choose to stay in Thailand based on my valid retirement visa , the immigration people are happy , because I am one of the good guys.   

 

But what I do in my home country which is Norway, is none of their business.

I have been running a business there for 15 years , and lived in Thailand for 7 years . 

 

I do some online work like answering e-mails and stuff , maybe 2 hours daily . That's it. I have nothing to worry about , it's all legal , I just happen to stay in Thailand , or any other country . If I need to meet someone in person I just jump on a plane back to Europe. Thailand is not involved , except I choose to rent a condo here. 

 

What I earned last year I pay taxes in Norway, I have a private bank account in Norway where my income gets into ,  then when needed I transfer money for personal use to Thailand.  Very simple really .  

 

 

 

[khunPer]

58 minutes ago, balo said:

If I choose to stay in Thailand based on my valid retirement visa , the immigration people are happy , because I am one of the good guys.   

 

But what I do in my home country which is Norway, is none of their business.

I have been running a business there for 15 years , and lived in Thailand for 7 years . 

Thanks, that is exactly the good point.

 

Thailand is happy that we spend our money here as "retired" expats – and some, if not most, of us do spend a relative lot of money, relative to the average Thai; I think the 65k baht a month, or 800k baht a year, fits quite well in average spending – being a business owner (or self employed) abroad is fully legal, and when tax also is paid abroad within a double-tax agreement, it makes any money transfer of that money to Thailand fully legal; just like transferring a retirement pension where tax has been paid at home.

?

[khunPer]

20 hours ago, elviajero said:

Operating an online business doesn’t necessarily make someone a ‘Digital Nomad’. And you don’t need to be abroad to be a ‘nomad’. Your view seems flawed given the OP is planning to live in Thailand. 

 

Thai authorities have not defined who they consider to be a DN other than discussing people operating online business as tourists; who by definition should not be living permanently in the country.

 

No clarification regarding ‘expats’ has been reported as far as I’m aware.

Thanks for your reply, but in my view, one is an excellent "nomad" when living abroad – however, I presume we will not agree on that.

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, seancbk said:

Should not be living permanently in the country?  Says who?   

The law. The maximum period of stay for tourism is 90 days, and there is no extension of stay available beyond that. Tourist visas are meant for short term visits.

 

4 hours ago, seancbk said:

Immigration law pertaining to Tourist Visas says you can stay here as often and as long as you like, so long as you have a valid visa (within the limitations of the visa).

No it doesn’t. 

 

4 hours ago, seancbk said:

There is no limitation to the number of Tourist Visas you can have, therefore there is no reason why you can't live here on Tourist Visas.   

There is no limit because they currently don’t want to stop genuine tourists from visiting frequently.

 

The fact that the authorities tolerate (to a point) people staying long term using back to back tourist visas doesn’t mean that’s what they want people to do or what people  should do.

 

Would you like a list of all the rules/changes the authorities have introduced to make it harder for people to get back to back visas since 2006 to stop them staying ‘permanently’? Those rules/changes make it obvious to anyone with an open mind that Tourust Visas are meant for short term visits.

 

Any extendable permission to stay that allows for living permanently in the country requires a non immigrant visa/status or a ‘special visa’, or residents permit.

[moontang]

you just never know when your next visa run might be your last if living here on Tourist Visas.  The regular accounts of people denied entry and stuck in jail or another country are fairly interesting.  Interesting that most are in denial that they knew it would eventually happen.

[balo]

Just to avoid any confusions my post was about persons already living here on a valid 1 year visa. 

If you try to stay here on tourist visas for a number of years , you will sooner or later end up in trouble, if your digital nomad or not . 

 

 

[NRGF]

On 7/11/2018 at 10:56 AM, overherebc said:

Some countries have a tax agreement with Thailand. 

By the way yes lots of people get it paid directly here.

UK pensions are taxed in UK so do not attract Thai tax, not sure on all the other countries.

However Thai law states that income into Thailand in the year it is earned is liable to Thai tax.

I receive my UK pension in the Netherlands free of UK tax but do have to pay tax on it in the Netherlands.

[LivinLOS]

2 hours ago, NRGF said:

I receive my UK pension in the Netherlands free of UK tax but do have to pay tax on it in the Netherlands.

And Thailands tax code specifically includes pension income as income liable for taxation.. 

Repeatedly had this debate with pensioners who think because they are being paid it tax free in thier home country, a pension is not 'income' in Thailand.. 

[seancbk]

10 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

And Thailands tax code specifically includes pension income as income liable for taxation.. 

Repeatedly had this debate with pensioners who think because they are being paid it tax free in thier home country, a pension is not 'income' in Thailand.. 

 

Could paying tax on their pensions in Thailand, to get their retirement extensions be the next thing all the old boys here will need to face?

 

[LivinLOS]

7 hours ago, seancbk said:

 

Could paying tax on their pensions in Thailand, to get their retirement extensions be the next thing all the old boys here will need to face?

 

This has been my main discussion point all along.. For the guys who verify their income with pension payments direct into a Thai bank, the year it was remitted.. They are literally signing documents which prove, beyond any shadow of a doubt, they owe Thai income taxes.. 

 

You think they wont come after that ?? Its hard going to cost them votes is it ??

[ExpatDraco]

And Thailands tax code specifically includes pension income as income liable for taxation.. 

Repeatedly had this debate with pensioners who think because they are being paid it tax free in thier home country, a pension is not 'income' in Thailand.. 

Really? But due to double tax treaties they don't need to pay taxes in Thailand?

[LivinLOS]

9 minutes ago, ExpatDraco said:

8 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

And Thailands tax code specifically includes pension income as income liable for taxation.. 

Repeatedly had this debate with pensioners who think because they are being paid it tax free in thier home country, a pension is not 'income' in Thailand.. 

Really? But due to double tax treaties they don't need to pay taxes in Thailand?

See this is where people are confused.. 

 

First point.. In many countries your pension is deferred taxation.. Its not tax free, its paid to you at a rate below the local level of tax.. 

 

Secondly.. If your resident in Thailand each tax year, under any DTA its up to you to register your non residence in your home country, claim back your tax there as a non resident, and then pay tax in the country you are resident. The solution doesn magically solve itself, its up to you to do this. 

 

DTA agreements do not guarantee you never pay tax twice, in fact its not at all common to (temporarily) pay tax twice, DTAs enable you to claim back tax from countries you are not resident in once you submit tax returns at the end of the tax period. 

 

As a side note, what I do for a living is cross border labour supply.. DTA agreements, especially within the EU, are my primary business currently. I have 60 plus pan european workers. 

 

So.. If your resident in Thailand, a DTA would only enable you to claim back any home country tax where you are no longer tax resident at the end of a tax year. Thailands tax code is written incredibly generously ( to benefit wealthy Thai hiso types with offshore business interests) where all you have to do is not remit it the same calnder year and its squeaky clean.. And yet so many pensioners are signing statutory declarations, swearing affidavits and doing EXACTLY that which would make them liable for Thai tax. 

 

Whats the income tax band on 65k ?? Explain why they wouldn't demand it as its basic Thai law ?? 

[ExpatDraco]

See this is where people are confused.. 
 
First point.. In many countries your pension is deferred taxation.. Its not tax free, its paid to you at a rate below the local level of tax.. 
 
Secondly.. If your resident in Thailand each tax year, under any DTA its up to you to register your non residence in your home country, claim back your tax there as a non resident, and then pay tax in the country you are resident. The solution doesn magically solve itself, its up to you to do this. 
 
DTA agreements do not guarantee you never pay tax twice, in fact its not at all common to (temporarily) pay tax twice, DTAs enable you to claim back tax from countries you are not resident in once you submit tax returns at the end of the tax period. 
 
As a side note, what I do for a living is cross border labour supply.. DTA agreements, especially within the EU, are my primary business currently. I have 60 plus pan european workers. 
 
So.. If your resident in Thailand, a DTA would only enable you to claim back any home country tax where you are no longer tax resident at the end of a tax year. Thailands tax code is written incredibly generously ( to benefit wealthy Thai hiso types with offshore business interests) where all you have to do is not remit it the same calnder year and its squeaky clean.. And yet so many pensioners are signing statutory declarations, swearing affidavits and doing EXACTLY that which would make them liable for Thai tax. 
 
Whats the income tax band on 65k ?? Explain why they wouldn't demand it as its basic Thai law ?? 

Interesting... I am not a pensioneer, but I have contacts with Belgian ones. So you are saying they should declare their Belgian pension and pay taxes in Thailand if they remit it in the same tax year (if they stay in Thailand for more then 183 days/calendar year)?

[LivinLOS]

Thats what the Thai tax code explicitly says.. 

If they are resident here, they can register thier non residence (no idea about belgium but in the uk that freezes your pension) and not pay taxes in belgium (if they are earning enough). 

 

Thai tax code is online.. Look it up. Its not even vague.. 

 

Quote

 

Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories including any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer.

(1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.⁴

 

Singing documents stating on the record that you bring this in, in the year it is paid to you.. Is like signing guarantor checks for that to be claimed as due.. 

Explain why they wouldnt ask for it ?? Just because enforcement has been weak in the past ?? You assume it will remain weak forever ?? 

[impulse]

18 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Explain why they wouldnt ask for it ?? Just because enforcement has been weak in the past ?? You assume it will remain weak forever ?? 

 

I'm still waiting for the day that Thailand gets their tax department computers talking to their banks' computers, talking to immigration computers and then we hear about people being presented a tax bill when they try to leave the country.  I hope it never happens, and doubt that it will happen in my lifetime. 

 

And I know a lot of guys praying that they don't make it retroactive.

 

But that day's a' coming...

 

Edit:  According to some previous posts over the years, some guys claim to have had that experience in the distant past- stopped at outgoing immigration for tax liabilities they claim they didn't realize.  But that was under programs that no longer exist.

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by impulse

[LivinLOS]

19 minutes ago, impulse said:

Edit:  According to some previous posts over the years, some guys claim to have had that experience in the distant past- stopped at outgoing immigration for tax liabilities they claim they didn't realize.  But that was under programs that no longer exist.

Yeah in the 80s maybe early 90s, if you had a work permit you couldnt leave without a tax proof.. 

 

I remember that story when I first came here.. 

[impulse]

4 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Yeah in the 80s maybe early 90s, if you had a work permit you couldnt leave without a tax proof.. 

 

I remember that story when I first came here.. 

 

That just confirms that, even though the immigration department determines who can stay, the tax department determines who pays taxes, and the employment department determines who gets a WP, even way back then, they did talk to each other.

 

[jacko45k]

17 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

And Thailands tax code specifically includes pension income as income liable for taxation.. 

Repeatedly had this debate with pensioners who think because they are being paid it tax free in thier home country, a pension is not 'income' in Thailand.. 

Yes I was told the same at the revenue office. 

[lamyai3]

On 7/11/2018 at 7:50 AM, jackdd said:

Immigration police does not define what is work and what isn't.

I was thinking that the Ministry of Labour is responsible for it, but when i contacted them regarding this topic they told me to contact the Department of Employment: https://www.doe.go.th

When i called the DOE they told me that they don't consider working online as work (actually the first person i had on the phone was like "he think that's work and thus it's illegal without a WP, but he is not sure", he then forwarded the call to his boss and his boss said that working online is not considered work, so no WP needed and allowed on a tourist visa). If anybody wants to confirm it by himself, their phone number is: 1694

For a moment there I thought you'd lifted this storyline from Kafka.